Has anyone made their own Tallow?

[Mike Olson]

I'm thinking about making my own Tallow but i'm wondering if anyone else does it.

In my readings, most sites state that the process is extremely stinky so my wife is a bit Leary of letting me try it. I stumbled across a site that uses a Crockpot for one of the methods. I'm thinking of using a Crockpot liner and putting it in the garage to cook.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/2009/07/09/how-to-render-lard-tallow/

Thoughts?

Mike

[greg Forster]

Why would you want to do this?

[David Weaver]

I'm kind of wondering the same thing. Don't they sell plain beef tallow for birds?

But, what you want to do in your shop is your thing, if you want to render it, feel free.

I think some talk on a farming board might get you farther ahead than here, though. I would imagine that anyone on here with farming ancestors has someone in their family who has rendered lard for use, just so it doesn't go to waste in the hog slaughter process.

[Jim Koepke]

If you just drain the fat from the pan after frying a few burgers, you will be on your way without the objectionable smell. Let it cool a bit before poring into a container. Of course, an old cleaned can will work and you will not have to worry as much about cooling.

We save the "drippings" every time we cook bacon.

jim

[Mike Olson]

Why would you want to do this?

This is in reference to the article in the current popular woodworking magazine about using tallow to lubricate and protect your wooden and metal tools. "Mutten fat" supposedly being the best. The old wooden tools that are blackened is supposedly from Tallow.

I have been using Paste wax for most of my tools, is Tallow any better at protecting? i'm sure since it's grease it will allow the tool to slide easier than just paste wax.

Wow Jim. i didn't even think of that. I guess the next time I cook ground beef i'll pour the grease through a coffee filter and see how it goes. I'll probably get more than I need just from that.

Thanks,
Mike

[Steve Milito]

I'm thinking about making my own Tallow but i'm wondering if anyone else does it.

In my readings, most sites state that the process is extremely stinky so my wife is a bit Leary of letting me try it. I stumbled across a site that uses a Crockpot for one of the methods. I'm thinking of using a Crockpot liner and putting it in the garage to cook.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/2009/07/09/how-to-render-lard-tallow/

Thoughts?

Mike

I've rendered duck fat. I like the smell of cooking flesh, so I don't mind the smell at all. :D

[Steve Milito]

If you just drain the fat from the pan after frying a few burgers, you will be on your way without the objectionable smell. Let it cool a bit before poring into a container. Of course, an old cleaned can will work and you will not have to worry as much about cooling.

We save the "drippings" every time we cook bacon.

jim

The grease from cooking burgers is too hot and can break down the fats. Typically, rendering is done with low heat.

[Bob Strawn]

And the seasonings/salt/tenderizer that you or the meat department may have used, are not things you want on your plane. Best off slow cooking mutton fat. If you have a butcher or a grocery where they do the cutting of lamb, then you can usually buy the fat cheap. If you are a regular customer they might give it to you. I have obtained it to make soap before.

Bob

[Stephen Shepherd]

Mike,

The easiest way is to go to a butcher shop and buy some suet. This is the good fat surrounding the kidneys of various mammal. Heat it up on a low heat until the fat renders out. No objectionable odor if not too hot. Then squeeze out the excess and run it through some cheesecloth to remove any foreign matter.

Allow it to set up [cool] and it is ready to go.

Stephen

P.S. Lard is an excellent substitute, readily available and can be stored at room temperature. I am lazy so I use lard.

[Rick Markham]

We made Tallow (for carving) in Garde Manger ("Cold Kitchen"), The tallow we made was a mixture of refined Lard, and paraffin, It is cooled into a block (It's white, waxy and doesn't smell wretched) then is used to carve sculpture out of, usually used to decorate fancy buffets etc.

Are you sure that this isn't the type of Tallow that FWW was talking about? Spreading animal lard on your tools seems like a good way to end up with a rancid smelling tool box.

The waxy stuff doesn't stink and probably would make a good preservative/ lubricant for tools. (never thought of using it) Though I am not sure of the long term effects, i.e. stinking later after being in a hot garage. If ya need me to look up a recipe, I can try and find mine, it's in one of my notebooks... somewhere...

It seems it would be a whole lot easier just to use the normal stuff on your tools, the wife will be happier too... But I suppose if you made a batch of Tallow, you'd be good as far as that is concerned for a very long time.

[David Weaver]

I would like to add, in troll fashion, that a gallon of food-grade light mineral oil shouldn't be more than $14 at a food service supply house, johnson wax is $5 at lowes, and I think my local hardware store charged me $2 for a pound of gulf wax.

Those should cover anything that lard does, at a lower rate, unless you have trimmings just hanging around to use.

I get the sense that it isn't an issue of the most effective and cheapest, though, and that's cool too if it's a matter of matching period work to period methods.

[Stephen Shepherd]

'Spreading animal lard on your tools seems like a good way to end up with a rancid smelling tool box.'

Lard doesn't go rancid unless it is heated up when cooked. You buy it from the unrefrigerated shelf and stored at room temperature.

Stephen

[Frank Drew]

I have been using Paste wax for most of my tools, is Tallow any better at protecting? i'm sure since it's grease it will allow the tool to slide easier than just paste wax.



I don't think it would protect as well as wax (witness the blackening you mentioned); and most folks haven't had problems finishing wood after using lightly waxed tools and machines -- but tallow is animal fat so might cause problems.

I'd stick with wax.

[David Woodruff]

Sounds like a lot of trouble ................My grand parents rendered tallow for candles. Do you have electricity?

[George Clark]

now that's funny

[Rick Markham]

'Spreading animal lard on your tools seems like a good way to end up with a rancid smelling tool box.'

Lard doesn't go rancid unless it is heated up when cooked. You buy it from the unrefrigerated shelf and stored at room temperature.

Stephen

Ya learn something everyday! I don't buy lard, so I have never looked. I cook in Bacon grease :eek:

My understanding is that any fat (hydrogenated or not, heated or not) are always subject to E-coli and other anaerobic bacteria, which in turn create hydrogen sulfide as a byproduct of their "anaerobic lifestyle" (smells like a bad rotten egg) Now if the Lard has absolutely zero water in it, it has been rendered completely, and if salt has been added, then yes the potential shelf life is next to forever. Once moisture is introduced anaerobic bacteria are free to thrive.

Cooking in oils (animal or vegetable) does cause "rancidity" without a doubt. The temperature of the smoke point gets lower and foods caramelize prematurely in rancid oil. Anyone that has gotten fries that are too brown on the outside and not quite done on the inside has experienced this. This isn't due to biological activity though, it is the oil becoming saturated with "other" hydrocarbons and organic material from being overused. When chefs speak of frying oil being "rancid" it is overused and the smoke point has diminished. For whatever reason that term has been used improperly traditionally in professional cooking. It is really that the oil has become exhausted, and doesn't cook cleanly. Now if you leave it sitting around at room temp, I don't doubt it will end up really rancid, with organic matter and moisture in the mix that's perfect for anaerobic bacteria. ;)

[Tom Henderson2]

I suspect our fore fathers would have used paraffin if it had been available & affordable in their day...

-TH

[george wilson]

I can tell you that the old,dark,presumed tallow finish on antique tools will wash right off in plain water. Once I was using an old wooden brace out doors. It started to rain pretty hard,and I had to finish the job. The rain took all of the old patina right off,leaving the brace nice and pink! I think wax would not have been so easy to wash off.

You must realize that a lot of old time stuff was done with what was available back in the day. That may not mean it was the very best way to do something.

The English were always eating mutton. The U.S. soldiers in WWII England got real tired of eating mutton on a daily basis. Obviously they had tallow around.

Speaking of mutton,I was raised on 3 light houses when I was very young. On Lime kiln,in the Puget Sound,there was an abandoned sheep farm nearby,with sheep running wild with huge amounts of FILTHY wool hanging down all over them. I was about 5.

I remember my step father,who was always tight with money(and had little of it),killing those sheep with a .22 short(they were easy to kill). He'd gut them in the basement. The smell was terrible. We ate mutton all the time. I'll never eat another bite of it,either.

[Leigh Betsch]

The smell was terrible. We ate mutton all the time. I'll never eat another bite of it,either.

I agree. My grandparents would eat mutton once in awhile and make me eat it too. Never again. Makes liver taste good. Now antelope that's tasty.

[Brander Roullett]

P.S. Lard is an excellent substitute, readily available and can be stored at room temperature. I am lazy so I use lard.

I was wondering about that, thanks for confirming my theory on the lard. We used it a lot growing up for Mexican cooking, so I had a suspicion it might do as a substitute. Also, for bakers it comes in small "butter" sized cubes so it could be tried out cheaply.

I wanted to try out the tallow because I like to recreate traditional methods when I can to see how they were done.

I used Tallow at Roy's School (all his chopping boards for mortising practice had a small divot filled with Tallow) and it certainly made a difference to have it easily available and it certainly made a difference in sawing, and other actions. Just a tiny dab made a difference.

I wanted to make a small grease box for dabbing on my saw for dovetails, and other similar actions.

badger

[greg Forster]

Dixie Gun Works sells pure Mutton Tallow for $3.50 (appox. 12-16oz),
this would be a cheap, painless way to try out some.

It seems the English were rather fond of mutton tallow for their tools, but this (as stated above) was because it was readily available; this use really didn't follow to America.
The study of the English wool industry is fascinating- almost a precursor to the military-industrial complex.

I haven't read the magazine article... mutton tallow best for tools? Well my brother's doctor's butcher's son-in-law's cousin (twice removed) swears by it!
-best taken with a grain of salt

[John Powers]

My cardiologist is in favor of paste wax. He doesn't want to open me up again.

[Karl Wicklund]

The comments about tallow being too old-fashioned, too much trouble, seem surprising in this Neanderthal Haven.:)

[Stephen Shepherd]

The comments about tallow being too old-fashioned, too much trouble, seem surprising in this Neanderthal Haven.:)

Well said!

Someone asked a question about making their own tallow and everyone went 'modern'?

Stephen

[george wilson]

Just because someone 200 years ago had nothing ELSE to use doesn't make it THE BEST THING TO DO. Isn't that a reasonable statement? Working by hand doesn't necessarily mean you MUST use very old methods. I say that after being in a museum 39 years,and using the old ways,even making my own varnishes from old recipes(which are mostly BOGUS,by the way).

The issue here is preserving your tools,not preserving your tools with some ancient way of doing it.

[Stephen Shepherd]

Just because someone 200 years ago had nothing ELSE to use doesn't make it THE BEST THING TO DO. Isn't that a reasonable statement? Working by hand doesn't necessarily mean you MUST use very old methods. I say that after being in a museum 39 years,and using the old ways,even making my own varnishes from old recipes(which are mostly BOGUS,by the way).

The issue here is preserving your tools,not preserving your tools with some ancient way of doing it.

I think you miss the point of this forum which is called 'Neanderthal Haven' and people are interested in the old ways not the 'best' way as you say. The concept of using old tools in old way and old methods is what some of us do. And while you have a year on me, in the 38 years of working with wood traditionally, I don't even care about modern stuff, that is not what I do, I do history and there is no improving upon the past.

No one has improved on laid steel tools, hide glue and shellac, so why bother. To recreate a traditional woodworking experience as much of the old tools, materials and techniques are what people are interested in learning. Who cares about the modern stuff if that is not what you are doing.

I take umbrage with your off hand dismissal of old recipes for varnish.

Stephen

[Mike Siemsen]

The issue of using tallow becomes more important when you are demonstrating old methods. I also like to be able to use something that isn't a fossil fuel derivative. This stuff worked well for centuries, I say try it out before you dismiss it.
Mike

[george wilson]

Stephen,you obviously do not know me,or what I have done. Actually,I started making guitars in 1954. I became master instrument maker in Williamsburg in 1970. I spent so much time re creating old varnish formulas that my director gave me grief about it.

I can tell you that very many of the old formulas ARE BOGUS. I didn't say they all were. Too often things were only written down by intellectuals like Diderot,and the craftsmen who did not want to give away their secrets told him false things. I have found,and do use some old formulas for my varnish.

As steeped as I have been in the old ways,it is nonsense to say that the old steels are the best ever made,and the old ways are the infallibly best ways. Too often "the old ways" have been lost,and re-created later on false assumptions,anyway.

I have not dismissed tallow out of hand,Mike. I have tried out more old things than either of you by quite a bit. I was paid to do so full time for 39 years. Were you?

You two have some romantic notion that just because something is old,it MUST be the best. I work by hand,but have a great background in historic methods. I am able to cherry pick the best of both Worlds. By the way,animals also impact the enviornment. Haven't you heard about cattle making gas that is harmful for the environment? Also,do you eat raw meat,or do you cause damage to the air by cooking it?

Go to Neanderthal FAQ,look up my name,and see my work before you decide anything about me. George Wilson.

[Frank Drew]

I think you miss the point of this forum which is called 'Neanderthal Haven' and people are interested in the old ways not the 'best' way as you say. The concept of using old tools in old way and old methods is what some of us do.
Fair enough, Stephen; people are entitled to work in any manner they choose.


.... there is no improving upon the past....No one has improved on laid steel tools, hide glue and shellac, so why bother.

But this is something else entirely; do you mean these statements to be taken literally?

[george wilson]

I am as much involved in historic trade practices as anyone here. That is pretty well known,except by the newbies on this forum.

Romanticism aside,it is just plain false to assume that European steel from past centuries is superior to that which is made today.

Indeed,very little was known about chemistry before about 1830. Oxygen was only discovered in 1772. Then,it was called "fire air",or "depholigistated"(sp?) air.

The English had no idea why their iron wasn't very good(it had sulfur in it). They had to buy the good metal from Sweden.

They had no real idea how iron became steel,including in their manufacture such things as urine from a red haired boy,or from a wine drinking friar among a large assortment of things that had no benefit at all. Fortunately,their mixtures included carbon bearing materials like charcoal,leather scraps,etc..

The steel produced was of variable quality,including soft and hard areas,because it was made from case hardened rods that were welded together into "shear steel". Their best was doubled over,and re-welded into "double shear steel."

A watch maker,Benjamin Huntsman,frustrated with his springs breaking from the soft spots,figured out to melt the steel in crucibles with charcoal,making homogeneous carbon steel.

Even in the late 19th.C.,in England,tool steel was made the same way,indeed up to the 1940's. It was graded by hardening samples and breaking them open. A skilled operator would examine how fine the grain of the broken samples was,and sort the batches into Spindle steel(the lowest grade),Knife steel,and Razor steel.

At best,these were only approximations,and no sophisticated alloying materials were added for a very long time.

Alloy steels were naturally mined in some areas. Wolfram was tungsten steel mined in Germany. They had little idea how much was in the steel,though. There was a natural deposit of stainless steel,too. We have a fireplace set in Col. Williamsburg made from it. Some of the all metal Scottish pistols were made from it. these were rarities,though.

I was the master toolmaker from 1986 to retirement. I can't tell you how many antique,steel bitted chisels and other tools I had to repair. Tradesmen would buy them for their work,though museum policy was against using antiques. I did the same thing sometimes. The bits would come loose from faulty welds. Some chisels' edges would curl back because the chisel had never been hardened,or drawn way too soft. The users would bring them to me to fix.

The English used faulty steel in the Titanic,which lately has been shown to have caused the hull to tear open excessively. The very best materials and craftsmanship went into that most ambitious of all ships.

There was nothing magic about people in those days any more than there is today. Some of them were greatly skilled,others not so much. A violin maker in the Paris Guild was made to burn his violins because they were so bad(how'd he get into the guild?).

I am certainly NOT saying that good tools were not made. Just that a blanket statement about their quality cannot be made. I own about 350 carving tools and chisels,ranging from the 18th.C. to the present. I use them. They are not a collection I keep to look at.

Most of them are from the golden period of English tool making in the 19th.C.. There are definitely big variations in Addis tools from then,as well as others.

Shellac was known,and written about in the 17th.C. as being a poor finish. It was known to lose its shine,and,of course,cannot stand being gotten wet for long. It is the cheapest finish ever made. You can't use it for objects that will be handled a lot,because it will soften.

There are many types of animal glues. I use them,and they are good because for musical instruments,they can be taken apart,and they transmit vibrations well. Even in the 14th.C.,glues made from cheese were in use as the early casein based glues. They were more water resistant than hide glues,but not perfect yet. An ordinance had to be passed in the 1400's banning their use for exterior woodwork in France.

I'm not saying hide glue was not good,but that several other glues were in use,too. Albumen glue was used for gold leaf work on book bindings. Rabbit glue for gilding on woodwork. Wheat gluten glues for book binding. Fish bladder glues for wood,especially popular among Spanish guitar makers. Lots of glues were the best for certain applications. Even glues from resins were used for holding things like precious stones in place.

I suggest more study before making blanket statements based upon romanticism,and not real facts. Sorry to burst any bubbles. They need bursting,sometimes.

[Mike Olson]

wow, this little question certainly took off.

Next time I'm at the butcher "which isn't very often" i'm going to pick up some mutton fat and try a pound in the crockpot

I enjoyed reading the discussions.

Thanks,
Mike

[greg Forster]

Mike,

Did you see my post about Dixie Gun Works; for about $7.00 plus shipping you could get about 2 lbs of pure mutton tallow ready to try out.



p.s. Upstate or Downstate

[george wilson]

Stephen,it's always nice to hear a newbie on the forum tell us what the Neanderthal forum is all about,but you must be wearing blinders.

In your time here,haven't you noticed that most of the guys talk a
bout their LN or LV planes? The ones with 01 or A2 steel blades?

Some also use A2 chisels,and a few even use the latest powdered metal technology chisels,too. I think I've even heard mention of D2 steel blades on this forum,and,heaven forbid,HSS.

I am among those who like to use wooden planes. Made a bunch of them,too. They even had forged,bitted blades. However,I also have several infills I've made,and several LN planes,too,and the new LV art deco block plane.

What this must mean is this is a hand tool forum,not the museum forum.

It also includes endless debates on sharpening. These include many kinds of new stones,like ceramic and diamond and abrasive paper and lapping with diamond dust,too.
Hardly what our for fathers used,in many cases.

I could go on,but I think this should show you what the Neanderthal forum encompasses.

I think it includes my stand,which is to cherry pick the best of both new and old technology. The need for personal skill is not diminished,though.

But,even if Roy recommends it,I don't want to rub tallow on my tools. Don't want them greasy. Don't want my hands to smell of it later. Had enough of sheep as a kid,except to pet them.

If you think the old days were the "good old days" try reading a little Dickens. He was sent to work in a shoe polish factory as a young teenager. He packed shoe polish into jars with his hands. It affected him for the rest of his life. Lucky for him he had enough talent to become a writer. The rest of the poor devils never got out. Times were very,very hard. I read about a chair maker who got a job in a factory. He was allotted a window with oiled paper panes. If he wanted glass,he had to buy it himself. This guy was so poor he could not afford a workbench(you had to furnish your own tools,too). He had to take up the floor boards and stand upon the ground,using the floor as his workbench. Don't know what he did for a vise. Probably just stop dogs. I seriously doubt that he reflected upon the quality of his tools. I read about an old cabinet maker who burned his tools when he got too old to work,for the trouble they had caused him. That's sad. We would never do that,would we?

I was never in a union,but in the furniture factories in North Carolina in the 20's and into the 30's,you were paid as you went out the door each day. Paid just enough to buy groceries on the way home. Not enough money to begin to save any. Why? because if you got any money saved,you might quit and find a better job. That's the way it was. Henry Ford was a real pioneer in good pay. He wanted to make his workers into his customers as well.

As for "doing history",been there,done that,and probably longer than you guys will,since I did it all week,all year for many years,even in costume. My director said,though,that there was something wrong with those who wore costumes that they weren't PAID to wear.

[Stephen Shepherd]

George, this isn't about you and it isn't about me. It is about answering a question that someone asked with out the personal ad hominem attacks.

You missed the point and obviously you haven't taken a look at how long I have been on this forum.

But since you got personal, how many woodworking and historic publications have you been in and how many books have you published?

Stephen

[David Weaver]

I didn't realize this was in PWW last month - missed it in the post earlier until reading back yesterday looking to see if that was mentioned after my 9-month old daughter shredded my PWW magazine and I saw a page hanging out with stuff about using animal fat.

It strikes me as similar to running around and oiling all of the mechanical equipment around the house with animal fat and a tar bucket.

I guess it could be construed as re-enacting when you use it? A lot of tar buckets were left behind where I grew up - there was a battle of sorts there at one time in the past. Nobody uses them to lube anything today.

[george wilson]

I have been in "The Craftsman in America", put out by the National Geographic Society,and was on the cover of "Window on Williamsburg" for 12 years,and
in it. I have been featured in articles in "The Colonial Williamsburg Journal" I have a film "The Musical Instrument Maker" which you can buy from Col.Williamsburg. My staff and I am making both a spinet harpsichord and a violin in it. It is the only film of its kind. Also in "Plane Makers in America"(?) I can't recall the title as I am sick.

I have been asked to make gifts for every president since Reagan,and every major head of state in Europe. Also numerous celebrities such as David Brinkley. Even John Anderson of the group "Yes". Margaret Thatcher,Helmut Cole,Mitterand,Prince Hero of Japan,the president of Italy,president of Argentina,and lately Queen Elizabeth have my work. There are others I have forgotten about. Right now I have had pneumonia for 3 weeks,and am not real good at recollection.

I have wanted to write a book,and have been much encouraged to do so. However,there are 2 types of people,really,this is true: There are those who play at it and write books,and those who actually do the work,and just do not write books. Having met several woodworking authors,I can tell you that I much prefer to be the real craftsman. I've had several well known authors stop in. Some of them asked the most basic questions,or made the most ridiculous statements I was very surprised. One of them rankled each and every Master and journeyman in Williamsburg during a speech in a wood working forum there.

For those who remember,he's the one who told me that he'd had the same planer blades on his thickness planer for 20 years. I mean,you DO have to use them to wear them out!! He writes an article every time he makes a night stand.

You are making a fool of yourself asking about my qualifications. Had you been in this forum for long,you would know better.

Every thing I have cited is factual concerning historical woodworking,tools,and the nature of hand tools used by the forum members.

David Weaver,just above,is also a long standing expert on this forum.

You need to be careful who you attack. If you want to be some kind of historical woodworker,fine. You can even wear a costume while you do it.

Now,what are your qualifications for making the sweeping statements you have made?

[Dave Anderson NH]

Back things off a bit people.

[David Weaver]

Expert is a bit far, I'm not a George Wilson, just a hobbyist with a tool fascination and a want to find what works best and not get lumped into a group that by defintion has to follow certain traditions or regard this over that. I have played with and tried anything that I mention, though.

I once troubled George a long time ago before I got booted off an overmoderated competing forum, because I thought he was probably just another professional woodworker who gets on here and troubles all of the newbies and hobbyists (there is plenty of that going around), and I didn't know the pre-existing dynamic between him and someone else that added fuel to the fire.

Boy was I wrong about who he was and his intentions, though. A google of "george wilson tool maker" turns up all kinds of interesting stuff.

I understand, though, the desire to re-enact - I grew up in a place where people put on wool underwear, wool pants and long sleeves for three days at the beginning of july every year, and they do it for *fun*. I just hope that people who want to either play with their tools or make things don't get the sense that everything that's newer isn't just a "faster, cheaper and lazier" way of doing something that was once done more effectively. No wool underwear in my shop.

[george wilson]

I don't remember you "troubling" me,David. Actually,it's "George Wilson,guitar maker." I'll have to google what you suggest,though,and see what pops up.

I,too,wore long underwear in Alaska,and don't much care for it either! It was several years of real pioneering,mostly without electricity or insulation. We bathed in a 2' galvanized tub in front of the open oven. The ice box was an orange crate nailed up high on the outside of the house so the bears couldn't reach it.

I wasn't allowed to have a gun,but at 13 I was setting dynamite!

P.S.,just googled it. Didn't know what was there. The 2 making a spinet in Mack's shop are my old journeymen,Marcus and Ed.

There is a video on that FWW site where Jon Laubach and I are showing how we cut the throats of the wooden planes we made. It wasn't done by hand,no,but our job was behind the scenes as toolmakers. It was to make tools for 80 craftsmen,and others such as conservators,costume makers,etc.. We had to devise ways to do the work as efficiently as possible. We were not demonstrating to the public at that time,though we both did for 16 years. Jon was a gunsmith,one of the handful in the country who can forge weld,bore,and rifle a wrought iron rifle barrel by hand. I was Master Musical Instrument Maker.

If you see the picture on the FWW site where we are standing over a long workbench,you can see a batch of saws we had made. The handles were hand made,except for band sawing their shapes out,since the contours of the handles changed in different areas. The saws were hand sharpened. We had a foley,but it was NEVER RELIABLE.

[David Weaver]

I don't remember you "troubling" me,David. Actually,it's "George Wilson,guitar maker."

I have seen some of the guitars and lute work that's sprinkled on the internet. They look as good as anything that I have ever seen, especially the inlay work. Superb detail and still tasteful, something that seems harder to find now that inlay work is available from anyone with a laser.

I don't know anything about instruments other than guitars, but I'm sure given the work you've done elsewhere, that the voicing of the guitars is as good as the looks.

Figured I wouldn't mention the guitars, because probably not that many folks on here are fanatical about stringed instruments.

[Frank Drew]

However,there are 2 types of people,really,this is true: There are those who play at it and write books,and those who actually do the work,and just do not write books.

Not true, actually, at least not true across the board; here's just one example (among many) to the contrary: Alan Peters.

[george wilson]

Nothing is ever true across the board. i don't know him.

David, highly inlaid instruments are something I did as a challenge,and as orders I got. Personally,I prefer plainer instruments. The thing I like mostly about ornamentation is designing it.

[Frank Drew]

Alan Peters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Peters

His book, Cabinetmaking, The Professional Approach, is a clear-headed and IMO very accurate description of the myriad of things that go into setting up a professional woodworking shop and business.

His woodworking speaks for itself.

[george wilson]

I recall him now. Just not a fan of Arts and Crafts movement.

[Frank Drew]

Well, through his apprenticeship and training there was a link to the arts and crafts movement in England*, but neither Edward Barnsley's, where he apprenticed, nor Peters' own furniture were in that style.

*Ernest and Sidney Barnsley were Arts and Crafts movement furniture designers and makers associated with Ernest Gimson in the early years of the 20th Century; Edward Barnsley, with whom Peters apprenticed in the Fifties, was Sidney's son, but Edward's own designs were more in what could be called high style.

[David Weaver]

I hope you've looked at the lute that George did. It's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, but George's work is a cut (or several cuts) above.

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When you do work like that, you can mention the past as much as you want.

I hope to walk into acoustic music works here someday and find one of george's guitars on the wall with the owner saying "i don't know who the maker is, so this one is discounted". The guy probably knows who he is, though.

[george wilson]

Nope,I did every little shred of that lute all by myself when I was 29 years old. I have never concealed the fact that my journeyman Jon helped make the batches of planes and saws,and our usual production of tools many years later when I became toolmaker. The two of us and no one else. . After all,we both appear in the pictures. I mentioned ages ago that the blacksmiths made the plane irons for our standard production(not for my own special infill planes). However,none of my journeymen could really draw in the Musical Instrument Shop. Alan,you are blowing smoke. You really know nothing about who did what. You've just admitted that you've never been to Williamsburg.

It isn't bragging if you can deliver the goods. And,that isn't bragging either. I've seen your work,Alan,and no offense,but you simply aren't qualified to stand in judgement. Nor are your people skills great,either.

Has anyone given thought as to how the tallow should be applied? Hot? Cold? Any realization that once it's on a wooden tool,there's no taking it off. Will it eventually stink up your tool,and your hands? I tell you,those old timers lived pretty roughly.

It is pretty easy to ask he who was there if I made the lute and inlaid guitar. Call 1-757-229-1000. Ask for the Anthony Hay Cabinet Shop. Get Marcus Hansen's home number,and ask him. You could also ask Ed Wright,who is still there. Marcus was my only apprentice in 1970,but Ed knows who did what.

Dave,sorry,I am being needlessly attacked by a person known to you and Keith. Sorry,I had to defend myself. My work is mine,and no one who wasn't even there has any right to try to deny my life's work.

[David Weaver]

Please don't get the thread locked, i'm not trying to get into the credential poker to see who has the bigger hand - their beef (what an appropriate word for this thread) is between them, and I'm not involved.

I'm just impressed by George's work, especially making specialty tools.

I also would've guessed that the saws were made by several people at wbg, the picture online shows a quantity that would take me a year of shop time.

It's the detail work and tool design that I'm impressed by.

I did get a giggle because of this over lunch today, searched on the guitar stuff and noticed a thread last year where someone asked a question, George offered a reasonable explanation, and the thread blew up because he touted something based on longevity above and beyond a common leather dye. I got a chuckle out of that.

[george wilson]

I said that the common leather dye could fade,and recommended a conservation quality dye that has been arc light tested for many,many hours. Is that what you refer to,David? I have seen that very leather dye fade over the years. I taught leather work as part of a class in 1964 and 65. They also used it in other places over the years where I was,and it did fade.

[David Weaver]

George, that's the one. I'd have been happy to know that were I asking the question. Don't have to look at many guitars from the 70s vs. sales lit to find out they don't look like they did when they were new any longer.

[george wilson]

Back in the 50's and 60's I did all the repair work for Mozart Music,and another music shop in Norfolk,Va. Made my extra college money that way. They'd put guitars in their windows. One wine colored Epiphone(by Gibson) turned gray. I was always fixing up mistakes.

Being in a museum with a first class conservation dept. had its advantages. One of them was learning what dyes they used that were archival.



My credentials were challenged by Stephen,so I had to respond and defend myself. If he's been here since 2003,but only did 144 posts,I don't think he has kept up with things on the forum,or he'd have seen the pictures I posted way back last year.

I have always been respectful of my mentors and teachers. If someone doesn't want to do so,let him go his own way and make no progress in his own work.



I still own that lute today.

[David Weaver]

David, highly inlaid instruments are something I did as a challenge,and as orders I got. Personally,I prefer plainer instruments. The thing I like mostly about ornamentation is designing it.

George, I'm impressed by the work solely by the quality of it. I like to play plainer instruments because they're cheaper, and you can get more sound for your money (like Bourgeois guitars, tend to be kind of plain, but well voiced).

But as a display of workmanship, and if someone is paying you to do it, spectacular work never gets old.

[george wilson]

For my own use,I make them pretty plain. An inlaid instrument would be out of place with someone in blue cotton shirt and Levis,anyway.

[george wilson]

Actually,there could be something to this tallow business. I heard about a local church where they apparently worship it. This Irish guy there was always praying to the Lard.

[Rob Young]

Actually,there could be something to this tallow business. I heard about a local church where they apparently worship it. This Irish guy there was always praying to the Lard.

Wow. Running a high fever with that pneumonia too? :rolleyes:

[Caspar Hauser]

Goose tallow and best brown paper make a plaister, and when applied to the chest are good for the dread lurgy, humours of the chest etc. it's historically accurate, very neanderthal, ask my dad. :)

[george wilson]

I am getting better now that the NASTY LITTLE GERMS have been eliminated.

[Terry Beadle]

I made one of those dovetail double lidded boxes that I saw on a Roy Underhill show and used Crisco for the tallow. So far Crisco seems to not go rancid or produce any smells, but I think wax does a better job on the sole for reducing friction. Still, If I work through lunch, a quick licking of the Crisco gets the party started....hoot! Just kiddin'

Roy was recommending sheep tallow too but like the original post, I'd be hard pressed to make some.

I'm going to keep trying the Crisco for a while yet. I'm thinking it needs time to work into the pores of the wood and the soles on my planes are tight grained.

I wonder how french fries would do?

[Roger Newby]

I am as much involved in historic trade practices as anyone here. That is pretty well known,except by the newbies on this forum.

Romanticism aside,it is just plain false to assume that European steel from past centuries is superior to that which is made today.

Indeed,very little was known about chemistry before about 1830. Oxygen was only discovered in 1772. Then,it was called "fire air",or "depholigistated"(sp?) air.

The English had no idea why their iron wasn't very good(it had sulfur in it). They had to buy the good metal from Sweden.

They had no real idea how iron became steel,including in their manufacture such things as urine from a red haired boy,or from a wine drinking friar among a large assortment of things that had no benefit at all. Fortunately,their mixtures included carbon bearing materials like charcoal,leather scraps,etc..

The steel produced was of variable quality,including soft and hard areas,because it was made from case hardened rods that were welded together into "shear steel". Their best was doubled over,and re-welded into "double shear steel."

A watch maker,Benjamin Huntsman,frustrated with his springs breaking from the soft spots,figured out to melt the steel in crucibles with charcoal,making homogeneous carbon steel.

Even in the late 19th.C.,in England,tool steel was made the same way,indeed up to the 1940's. It was graded by hardening samples and breaking them open. A skilled operator would examine how fine the grain of the broken samples was,and sort the batches into Spindle steel(the lowest grade),Knife steel,and Razor steel.

At best,these were only approximations,and no sophisticated alloying materials were added for a very long time.

Alloy steels were naturally mined in some areas. Wolfram was tungsten steel mined in Germany. They had little idea how much was in the steel,though. There was a natural deposit of stainless steel,too. We have a fireplace set in Col. Williamsburg made from it. Some of the all metal Scottish pistols were made from it. these were rarities,though.

I was the master toolmaker from 1986 to retirement. I can't tell you how many antique,steel bitted chisels and other tools I had to repair. Tradesmen would buy them for their work,though museum policy was against using antiques. I did the same thing sometimes. The bits would come loose from faulty welds. Some chisels' edges would curl back because the chisel had never been hardened,or drawn way too soft. The users would bring them to me to fix.

The English used faulty steel in the Titanic,which lately has been shown to have caused the hull to tear open excessively. The very best materials and craftsmanship went into that most ambitious of all ships.

There was nothing magic about people in those days any more than there is today. Some of them were greatly skilled,others not so much. A violin maker in the Paris Guild was made to burn his violins because they were so bad(how'd he get into the guild?).

I am certainly NOT saying that good tools were not made. Just that a blanket statement about their quality cannot be made. I own about 350 carving tools and chisels,ranging from the 18th.C. to the present. I use them. They are not a collection I keep to look at.

Most of them are from the golden period of English tool making in the 19th.C.. There are definitely big variations in Addis tools from then,as well as others.

Shellac was known,and written about in the 17th.C. as being a poor finish. It was known to lose its shine,and,of course,cannot stand being gotten wet for long. It is the cheapest finish ever made. You can't use it for objects that will be handled a lot,because it will soften.

There are many types of animal glues. I use them,and they are good because for musical instruments,they can be taken apart,and they transmit vibrations well. Even in the 14th.C.,glues made from cheese were in use as the early casein based glues. They were more water resistant than hide glues,but not perfect yet. An ordinance had to be passed in the 1400's banning their use for exterior woodwork in France.

I'm not saying hide glue was not good,but that several other glues were in use,too. Albumen glue was used for gold leaf work on book bindings. Rabbit glue for gilding on woodwork. Wheat gluten glues for book binding. Fish bladder glues for wood,especially popular among Spanish guitar makers. Lots of glues were the best for certain applications. Even glues from resins were used for holding things like precious stones in place.

I suggest more study before making blanket statements based upon romanticism,and not real facts. Sorry to burst any bubbles. They need bursting,sometimes.



Well summarized and to the point.

Thanks George!!

By the way....I'm not a newbie....my real surname is Newby, with a proud heritage.

[george wilson]

Glad you found it useful,Roger. I know there are a few who would like to live in their own World and deny what I have written,or deny that I have an interest in history. If I had no interest,how would I have learned these things? When I was younger,it was my job and my interest to research and emulate the old ways. Now that I am retired,I can use the best of all of them,old and new.

The lute and inlaid guitar were made entirely by hand with period tools. The dovetailed planes in the FAQ section were fitted by hand. There was no other way to fit dovetails around a curved plane body anyway. It's much harder than making parallel body planes. The brass shoulder plane's body was bandsawed out,but beyond that,the variable bevels on the body,the sculpting of the rosewood filling,and other details were hand done. I have no milling machines that can do contours,only straight lines. I'm certainly no CNC man. The lion's head neck was hand carved. I even made some of the special tools to make it,like a miniature hooked knife to get way down in the mouth,and a miniature nag's tooth hand router to lower the background of the floral carving on the sides and back of the peghead.

Facts are facts,and I try to present them as clearly as I can about what I have learned about the past.

I will say that since old time craftsmen were dependent upon hand tools more than we are today,more emphasis was put on their quality than is usual with manufacturers today. Still,not all the surviving old tools are great,or even good in some cases.

There are,however,a growing number of toolmakers today who make very high quality tools for the woodworker. Some of them make quality tools that exceed those of the past,and use better steels in their blades. LN and LV are a few of the larger makers.There are a good number of smaller makers whose tools are outstanding,like Brese,Clark and Williams,etc.. Too many to list here. Holtey is over the top,but his prices are too! Are the Holteys art,or cold hard technique?

Jon and I were obligated to accurately reproduce the quality of old tools. I can tell you that the saw handles were not as well finished as those in the 19th.C..They were rasped and scraped and left that way. So were ours. We worked from furnished original saws. Not great finishes compared to later,when machines began to take some of the labor out of the work,enabling more effort to be put into better finish work.

Of course,there were exceptions,like the very finely made swords,silver ware,and furniture for the wealthy. Those antiques tend to survive better because they were placed in the best houses,and were always valuable and worth caring for. They were ghastly expensive in their day. A well bound book was about $2000.00 in today's money.
It does to tend to leave a false impression of the usual level of quality that was turned out for every one else. I have an early 18th.C. Southern yellow pine blanket chest. It was roughly planed with a curved blade,dovetailed less well than many do by hand today,and the hinges are nailed on,and extremely roughly beaten over to clench. Much more roughly than I would do it today,or most other wood workers. Today,we think of it as charming. It was the average person's furniture.

[Bill HammerII]

Interesting thread in that i understand both points of view. I too have a love of old things and wonder about how things were built in the past. I've made lard and tallow(and continue to do so to help pass this knowledge down, besides a old fashioned hog killing is a good excuse for a gathering of men for drinking) Its one of the reasons that i have a love of old tools. I can look at a the frame of a old house and by the tool marks picture how it was built. Finding a old arrow head as a child lead me to learn knapping. Are any of these skills handy today? Nope but I do get a a lot of enjoyment in exploring how problems were solved in the past.