Recomendations for a Cyclone dust collector wanted

[dirk martin]

I've got a 30' x 30' wood shop.
I run a Minimax MM24 bandsaw for resawing, a Woodmaster, A Shaper, I've got a jointer and table saw and radial arm in there too. 15" open end wide belt sander coming next week.

I'd like to add a cyclone style dust collector.
Was looking at the Tempest series, and also the Cyclones that Grizzly has.

It's rare that I run more than one machine at a time.

I want a portable drum on rollers for emptying the dust, not just a bag unit. Asking for something that is quiet, is probably too much for me to ask for.

What do you folks recomend?

[Jamie Buxton]

You should also look at Oneida. http://www.oneida-air.com/

[glenn bradley]

I have a 2HP Grizzly G0440 but, with your machine list I would start at a 3HP unit. there are a lot of happy Oneida owners here and I would have been one of them but a couple price jumps ago I became interested in other things. They are a high quality product and priced accordingly which is fine. I'm just a hobbyist and so was willing to cut some corners to save some cash. I understand that Clear Vue is still available and I don't think I have heard a bad word about one from an owner (or anyone else).

[dirk martin]

I was looking at the Grizzly G0703 vs the TEMPEST Portable 2HP Cyclone Dust Collector (TEMP2PCX).

Price diff of abut $25, and the Tempest looks like considerably more machine, and a smaller foot print.

Griz: 38 x 23 x 68 in overall size
Tempest: 27 x 21 x 84
I've got 9' ceilings, so I'd rather go up, than out.

Griz: 775 CFM
Tempest: 1025 cfm

Static Pressure:
Griz: 9.8"
Tempest: 10"

Motor:
Griz: 1.5hp
Tempest 2hp

Impeller size:
Griz: 13.5"
Tempest: 14"

Dust removal:
Griz: .2 to 2 micron
Tempest: .5 micron

How loud?:
Griz: 65 db
Tempest: 76 db

What do you think gang?

[Mike Goetzke]

Also add ClearVue (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/) to the list.

[dirk martin]

From what I'm seeing online, I think the Oneida is still beat out by the Tempest. I'll check the ClearVue next.

[Mike Goetzke]

From what I'm seeing online, I think the Oneida is still beat out by the Tempest. I'll check the ClearVue next.

Dirk - if you use the search feature you will find more than you want about dust collection. One thing that will repeat often is that the performance numbers can't be compared since everyone calcluates them under different conditions (sort of like my 6.5HP 110V Sears ShopVac).

[Erik Christensen]

go to bill penz's site - all you ever wanted or needed to know about DC & health

spent weeks there a few years ago - looked at everything commercially available at the time

got a clearvue and all 6" astm 2879 pipe to every tool - no regrets at all - do it exactly the same if starting over today (not something I can say of all my tool purchases)

best of luck - sorting through the conflicting specs & claims is a pain

[Paul McGaha]

Dirk,,

I think you would probably do well with all the manufactures that have been mentioned. There is a lot of information about dust collection both on the creek and the internet.

One thing I would suggest to you is watch the pricing on the dust collectors as compared to their horsepower and CFM. Somtimes a little more money can buy a lot more machine and an upgrade would be a small part of the cost of the total installation.

I recently completed the installation of a 2 HP Cyclone (Oneida), If I had to do it again I think I would have done at least a 3 HP ($100 more than a 2 HP) or maybe even a 5 HP ($300 more than a 2 HP). The total installion cost for my system was about $2,500.

Good luck with the purchase and install.

PHM

[Paul Wunder]

Dick,

I urge you to rethink the Tempest. The specs are not what the mfg states and more of the dust will reach the filters than either the Grizzly or the Oneida (or the ClearVue for that matter). Get your hands on the American Woodworker Jan 2006 issue where they objectively tested Grizzly, Oneida, Tempest and other brands. The actual cfm output for the Penn State Tempest was much lower than the mfg stated in was significantly lower than Grizzly or Oneida. Further, the article stated that the Tempest permitted significantly more wood dust to reach the filters instead of the cyclonic action catching the dust and depositing in the collection bin. This will cause the filters to clog more quickly and further reduce the usable cfms. That same magazine article gave high marks to the 2 hp and three horsepower Grizzlys and Oneidas (only the Dust Gorillas were tested) for meeting mfg specs and for superior cyclonic action.

I believe you can still access the article from Oneida's website.

I have no axe to grind with Tempest. I own a ClearVue and I am quite happy with it. I went through the angst of checking all the available units before I purchased. Unfortunately, because of the size and complexity of testing cyclones the only objective test was done by American Woodworker. When I saw how poorly the Tempest did vs. the others I called Penn State and spoke to the cyclone person (John Whittaker ?) and asked him if the test was correct or if he could supply me with an outside test of the Tempest's performance. He was unable to help with either request.

You have some serious size tools and hopefully you only want to purchase one cyclone.

[Neil Brooks]

Paul-

It seems reasonable, though, to ask whether or not a four year-old comparison is particularly helpful.

I'm not sure it's fair to assume that nothing's changed, or that every product made, every year, by a given manufacturer is representative of every other product, made every other year, by that manufacturer.

Sometimes ... NO info is better than POOR info.

I can't be sure the AWW comparison IS poor info, but ... it's certainly suspect.

Don't mean to be critical or harsh. I just mean to point out an issue that I think is worthy OF pointing out.

[Mike Archambeau]

I recently purchased the Oneida V3000 with hepa filter. I am working almost completely dust free. I work in a space of about 800 square feet. It works great!

[John Ferandin]

Dirk,
I have a similar size shop and setup with the same dust collection dilema.

I plan on putting my dust collector outside the shop in an insulated cabinet (for neighbor noise) and running an 8" (stepping down as needed) trunk line down the middle of the shop.

Oneida recommended their Pro2000 5Hp model with their duct design but shipping was prohibitive from the East Coast.

Clear Vue has now moved to the West Coast and their CV1800 MAX has similar performance (I think) to the Oneida 5Hp model. Shipping is also very reasonable as the breakdown size is considerably smaller.
They will be shipping on August 9th according to James Bushey who is one of the new owners.

Please keep us updated on your progress.

John




I've got a 30' x 30' wood shop.
I run a Minimax MM24 bandsaw for resawing, a Woodmaster, A Shaper, I've got a jointer and table saw and radial arm in there too. 15" open end wide belt sander coming next week.

I'd like to add a cyclone style dust collector.
Was looking at the Tempest series, and also the Cyclones that Grizzly has.

It's rare that I run more than one machine at a time.

I want a portable drum on rollers for emptying the dust, not just a bag unit. Asking for something that is quiet, is probably too much for me to ask for.

What do you folks recomend?

[Paul Wunder]

Neil,

I would normally agree that a four year old comparison may not be relevant.

However, the specific Oneida, Grizzly and Penn State models that were tested are still being sold.

What also impressed me at the time was that AW conducted their own cfm and static pressure tests on all models and they were done in a consistent manner. That, in my mind, leveled the playing field and helped to eliminate any "hype" that the manufacturers might have added. As I recall, Grizzly and Oneida's stated cfm and static pressure curves as tested were pretty close to the manufacturer's specs. Only Penn State's Tempest were markedly different and I called Penn State to give them a chance to rebut the tests. I really wanted to make the correct purchase decision. What also concerned me was the excessive amount of dust that made it past the filters in the Tempest.

Paul
Paul

I have purchased other non-cyclone items from Penn State and have been pleased.

[Neil Brooks]

Fair enough, Paul.

Many thanks for the extra info !

[Steve Prill]

One tidbit of information I ran into recently was that some manufacturers are pretty sneaky. Bill Prentz mentioned on his site that some manufacturers use the same impeller on two different machines and charge a considerably different price. One machine may be a 2 HP unit and the other a 3 HP unit. Both machines will operate the same, but the manufacturer claims different performance. Putting a larger motor on a unit does not increase its airflow if the motor turns at the same RPM and uses the same impeller and blower housing. I checked the parts list for two machines and sure enough, they had the same blower, but the manufacturer claimed different performance.

So, buyer beware.

I believe the ClearVue units really do have the best performance for the price. Or, if you are a do it yourself person, you can build the same unit out of metal from Bill Pentz's plans.


Steve

[Mark Levitski]

Dirk, my wife and I have a similar sized and equipped shop and really like the 5HP Oneida Gorilla we put in for it. Be prepared, though. It's possible to spend as much on the ductwork as you will on the collector. There are ways to save some money, such as building your own or using alternate duct materials IF you have the time to put into it. If it's a hobby shop it can be interesting and fun to put some time into things other than working wood. If it's your business, then one has to factor in where your time is better spent-- sweat equity or production.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

remember:
Dust collector runs in addition to another machine. Power requirements are critical. With that 5hp motor in the MM24, can you run more than 2 more HP?

[Matt Meiser]

I bought a Grizzly G0441 this spring. I don't have much time on it but it is an awesome machine. I know a few other guys who have a G0440, G0441, and G0442 and everyone is pretty happy with them.

[Jamie Buxton]

Those 5 hp machines will certainly do your job, but a lower-hp machine is also likely to do the trick. You're only going to have one sawdust-generator running at one time. A thousand cfm at the machine will be plenty. So the cyclone only needs to have enough power to pull a thousand cfm through 50 feet of ducting or so. A 3 hp DC will do that, presuming you do a good job laying out the duct system.

The downside to oversizing a DC is that the DC pulls its rated horsepower all the time that it is running. This is very different from all the other machines in your shop. The others draw only enough power to do the job presented to them. Most stationary machines never draw their rated power in their entire lives. For instance, a 3 hp table saw draws 3 hp only when you get it to bog down -- maybe ripping 12/4 hardwood with a very fast feed rate and a dull blade. In contrast, the DC is designed so that it runs the motor very close to the rated capacity all the time.

Excess horsepower in the DC has three impacts. One is heat; two horsepower is like running a 2000 watt space heater. Two is cost; see the space heater running cost. Three is wiring. Depending on how your shop is wired, extra current going to the DC may force you to rewire for more power.

[ian maybury]

I'm currently installing a Clear Vue/Pentz system in my 500ft2 shop, and went with it on the basis of what I read on the Clear Vue and other forums - also because the HVAC engineering seems to stand up. I've never seen a negative report on one - other than that you can get some extra noise if the system layout isn't carefully thought about.

The big attraction for me was that I was able to buy a 16in impeller from Clear Vue, and build the rest/have it fabricated locally.

Bill Pentz's site is a long read, but a gold mine of information. The Dust Collection Basics page at the start sets out the situation, the rest is 'how to' on building systems.

His core recommendations include the following - they apply no matter what system you buy:

1. Wood dust is to varying degrees a proven and serious health hazard, especially the very fine variety produced by modern high speed tools.

2. You need a lot more air flow (approaching 1,000cfm) at most machines (and appropriate hoods etc) than is available on most commercial systems to pull in the very fine invisible dust that is the dangerous stuff.

3. US standards (generally requiring around 400cfm at a machine) don't meet the air cleanliness standards it's been determined by medical research are required.

4. Fit a very fine filter 99.99% @ 0.3 micron if you don't want your system to simply recirculate and blow the fine dust into your shop.

5. A fine filter like this will blind far too quickly to be economical/safe if you don't fit an efficient cyclone before it.

6. A largish double garage or a bit bigger needs approaching a 5hp fan (on the normal radial centrifugal type of impeller) and 6in dia ducting to move this amount of air.

A few (especially experts) get quite angry and defensive at this (they have bought under specced commercial systems), and can't handle the conflict between what the makers say (what's become standard DIY practice) and a more factual/engineering based approach.

Yet it's pretty clear that many of the lower spec DIY systems trade on the unregulated nature of this market. 400cfm will do a very good job of picking up the visible chips on smaller machines, but it's not it seems going to get those fines.

Some others have started fitting very fine cartridge filters to older systems, and poo poo the need for a cyclone. And then come back to ask for help with filter blinding problems, but still won't fit a cyclone....

ian

[Carl Hunsinger]

...The downside to oversizing a DC is that the DC pulls its rated horsepower all the time that it is running. This is very different from all the other machines in your shop. The others draw only enough power to do the job presented to them...

This isn't true. Clamp an ammeter over one of the hot lines to the machine, close all blast gates, and you'll see relatively little current draw. Now open one of the gates, and watch the current increase. Since (assuming unity power factor), power is proportional to both voltage and current, the power draw is a definite function of airflow. In fact, it is proportional to the physical work that the motor / fan is producing. What will be (essentially) constant is the impeller speed, if an induction motor is used.

Carl

[Dan Friedrichs]

The downside to oversizing a DC is that the DC pulls its rated horsepower all the time that it is running.



As Carl said, this is incorrect. The fan does a certain amount of work moving a certain volume of air. If you choke off the airflow, no work is being done, and the motor draws very little power. If you fully open all gates, lots of air is moved, lots of work is done, and the motor draws closer to full rated power.

[Dan Friedrichs]

One tidbit of information I ran into recently was that some manufacturers are pretty sneaky.


Yep. A "certain" manufacturer even has pictures on thier website showing how "some impellers are only spot welded together, while ours are continuously welded", and shows pictures to that effect. Well, if you turn the "other" impeller around, you'd see that it really is continuously welded, too (just on the other side than what they show in the picture).

Several folks are happy with a brand that has been mentioned many times in this thread, but if you do some google-ing, you'll find other stories of absolutely horrible customer service from that company.

[Jamie Buxton]

This isn't true. Clamp an ammeter over one of the hot lines to the machine, close all blast gates, and you'll see relatively little current draw. Now open one of the gates, and watch the current increase. Since (assuming unity power factor), power is proportional to both voltage and current, the power draw is a definite function of airflow. In fact, it is proportional to the physical work that the motor / fan is producing. What will be (essentially) constant is the impeller speed, if an induction motor is used.

Carl

Okay, I suppose I should have been a little more exact and said that if the DC is collecting dust -- which is how a dust collector generally is used -- it pulls its rated horsepower, or very near to it.

[Joe Mioux]

one other point that i don't think has been mentioned is ductwork design.

Oneida designed my ducting (twice - but that's another story) and properly sized all the runs. Charge? there wasn't any for that service. Yes, i purchased all the ducting from Oneida.

I really appreciated the after sale service and some of that service occurred 4 years after the initial purchase.

hth,

joe

[Dan Friedrichs]

Oneida designed my ducting (twice - but that's another story) and properly sized all the runs.

I'm curious what "properly sized" is. A few people here have shown off their Oneida-designed duct systems, and they're done completely wrong (ie - 8" trunks, reducing down to 3" ports for each tool).

Duct design is not hard for a shop with only 1 gate open at a time - you want as straight as possible of 6" duct all the way to the tool.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Okay, I suppose I should have been a little more exact and said that if the DC is collecting dust -- which is how a dust collector generally is used -- it pulls its rated horsepower, or very near to it.


I still disagree. If I have a single 4" gate open, the DC will pull significantly less power than if I have a single 6" gate open. If you're only moving 200CFM of air, a 1HP motor will draw the same amount of power as a 5HP-rated motor.

[ian maybury]

To raise an issue I've run into with these free duct sizing services.

I had a ducting sales guy in the UK offering this sort of service argue that the duct size should reduce as you get closer to a machine. This (unless my HVAC training or what Bill Pentz has to say is daft) is not true for a typical small shop 'one machine running at a time' installation - the same diameter is required all the way from the machine to the fan.

This is because (for efficiency, and to deliver consistent chip transportation conditions) you will likely be seeking to maintain a constant and optimium air speed along the full length of the system.

It's in that case largely a matter of selecting a duct diameter using duct tables and the fan curve which (for your duct length) balances between placing a correctly sized fan and motor at the right point on their curves, and at the same time maximising the volume air flow while not reducing the air speed below 4,000fpm. (there's a rough duct sizing table well down on Bill Pentz's 'Basics' page that simplifies the task even more http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DCBasics.cfm)

Reduce the duct size too much (even for a short distance locally at e.g. a machine hood), and it'll cause a significant pressure drop and hence reduction in system air flow - leading to reduced dust collection. This because it seems that at these low pressure drops air behaves much like it's incompressible. (like a liquid, and not like a gas)

Make the ducting too large (even locally) for your volume airflow (cfm), and you risk dropping the air velocity in the duct so much that chips won't make it up verticals (4,000fpm or more is said to be needed for this), and may even drop out in some areas - creating a blockage and fire risk.

The alternative to the constant duct diameter situation is when the task is to simultaneously run multiple machines as in a production shop. This results in the need for increasing duct sizes getting closer to the fan as branches come together and their flows add....

ian

PS Clear Vue have been bought and seem to be back in business: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/

[Joe Mioux]

I'm curious what "properly sized" is. A few people here have shown off their Oneida-designed duct systems, and they're done completely wrong (ie - 8" trunks, reducing down to 3" ports for each tool).

Duct design is not hard for a shop with only 1 gate open at a time - you want as straight as possible of 6" duct all the way to the tool.

seems like you asked and answered your question(s)

[Carl Hunsinger]

I still disagree. If I have a single 4" gate open, the DC will pull significantly less power than if I have a single 6" gate open. If you're only moving 200CFM of air, a 1HP motor will draw the same amount of power as a 5HP-rated motor.

In fact, two motors, one a 2 hp, and the other a 5 hp, will draw the same power at a given airflow (since the speed is the same, and assuming they have the same efficiency rating). As blast gates open up and the airflow increases, both will pull the same power. The problem arises when the airflow reaches the point where the 2 hp motor is at rated capacity. Any further increases in airflow will overheat the 2 hp motor, risking permanent damage. The 5 hp motor can tolerate much more airflow before it gets to its limit.

Carl

[Joe Mioux]

I'm curious what "properly sized" is. A few people here have shown off their Oneida-designed duct systems, and they're done completely wrong (ie - 8" trunks, reducing down to 3" ports for each tool).

Duct design is not hard for a shop with only 1 gate open at a time - you want as straight as possible of 6" duct all the way to the tool.

to continue, anybody can run a 8 inch line and reduce it at the machine.

however, lets discus value and costs. what is more expensive an 8 inch piece of pipe, elbow, wye, blast gate or a 4 inch piece of pipe, elbow, or wye?

value matters.

You see, I don't subscribe to the notion that you have to have the largest opening in order to have the job required (moving dust particles from point A to point B)accomplished. We all know big fat pipes with a 8 hp motor and 28 inche impeller (exaggerated example to make a point) will do the job, but it won't be cost efficient for most applications.

I work with pvc pipe fittings all the time with my business, so i am aware of those costs. Given the variables of figuring out what i needed, designing the system on my own time, finding an inexpensive source for 6 inch *(in my case 7 inch pvc... the size of the DC opening) VALUE and opportunity costs came into play.

Oneida designed a least cost duct system for me and provided me with a good value and service.

please consider your future responses.

thank you.

[Jim O'Dell]

I think Bill Pentz has tried to do two things for us: design a system that captures more of the small particles that are harmful to us if breathed in; and make it affordable to a large portion of the home woodworkers by providing plans we can build ourselves if we desire. Many people think that Bill says that the PVC pipe is the only way to go. That isn't so. If you can find it, it is the least expensive option that gives top rated performance. Bill PMd me when he saw I was going to run my PVC ducting up in the attic, out of site and nicely told me that was dangerous and to rethink it. In case there was a fire, PVC out of site would be dangerous. In that installation, metal would be the only way to go. That stopped me in my tracks. I had already purchased the pipe and fittings after a lot of effort to even find it all, and I really didn't want to start all over with the metal piping that seemed to be much more expensive. (I've since learned if you find a local manufacturer of the spiral pipe, while it is more, it isn't cost prohibitive. But that appears to be just as hard to find locally as the thin wall PVC is. :D) So I found a way to work around the issue so I could use the PVC pipe, and still see it. I got my system, I exhaust outside so no filters, in and I'm under $1300.00. It's the most expensive "tool" I have in the shop, but is worth every penny. Now, the Clear Vue has gone up in price since I bought mine on sale in 2005. PVC has gone up some too. Most systems have. So probably closer to $1700.00 by today's pricing. I still think this is the most performance and the best price of any of the offerings out there. Does everyone need this much power? No. Heck, I doubt I need that much. But I'm confident I'm able to capture everything my hookups/hoods will allow.
This reminds me....I need to go check my chip barrel!!!! :eek: Jim.

[Dan Friedrichs]

to continue, anybody can run a 8 inch line and reduce it at the machine.

however, lets discus value and costs. what is more expensive an 8 inch piece of pipe, elbow, wye, blast gate or a 4 inch piece of pipe, elbow, or wye?

value matters.



Joe,

I certainly didn't mean to offend you - please accept my apologies if I did!

Allow me to clarify: I've seen pictures of people's Oneida-designed DC systems which use a large main trunk, reduced to 3" or 4" at the machine. This is probably standard in commercial shops where multiple machines run simultaneously. In a hobby shop, this is very poor design for several reasons:

1) If you don't have multiple gates open, you won't have enough air velocity in the main trunk to keep big particles suspended.

2) If you only have one gate open, you don't need such a large motor and blower (ie - the motor and blower have been oversized).

3) If you believe what Bill Pentz says, the 3" or 4" duct to the tool is not nearly sufficient to move enough air to capture fine dust.

So I guess my point was that proper DC design for a one-man shop is to have a single size of duct throughout the entire system, 6" or larger, starting at the blower and continuing all the way to the tool. Reducing the duct size at any point is a horrible, horrible idea, unless you have multiple smaller drops connected to the tool (ie - cabinet and overarm dust collection on a table saw)

[Jim Andrew]

My cyclone is a 2hp woodsucker, and it works very well. I also have a 18" woodmaster, and that is the hardest machine to keep up with. The woodmaster came with a 4" dust outlet, which I cut off and changed to 6", and the cyclone will keep up, but barely. If I were ordering a new one, would be looking for a slightly bigger cyclone. And I would look harder for 6" s and d. I used spiral pipe and spent more on that than I did for the cyclone.

[David Hawxhurst]

simply put i read bill pentz's website and got a clearvue. bought it because i wanted it faster than i could build one. before i was using a shop vac and mini type cyclone (trash can style) and had fine dust covering my shop (garage). after installing the cyclone and refitting most tools i have for the most part no dust (free hand router being the only one i haven't quite figured out how to collect all the dust from).

[Jim Andrew]

David, Eurekazone makes some fittings for routers for dust collection. I have one on my Hitachi and they also make them for PC. Saw some from Rockler also. But they work better on a shop vac than your big system.

[David Hawxhurst]

ya i know about the Eurekazone (have their tracks for my circular saw and router), i have a bosch and the dust attachments and use a shop vac still not as good as it could be but better than nothing.