Just how good is the Grizzly GO636XB bandsaw?

[ian maybury]

As it says. Just how good is the Grizzly GO636XB?

It's got very good reviews, it's pitched squarely to compete with the high end, heavy duty Italian models, and seems to match or surpass them on specs like HP, weight and so on.

Can anybody with direct experience say whether or not it performs as well (flatness, thickness, finish, repeatability, wear and tear and general lack of fussiness) on 12-13in deep resawing of veneers in hardwoods with e.g. an 1 3/8in Lenox CT blade as say a Minimax MM 16 or a year old Aggazani NRA 600?

Given a choice between a used Aggazani NRA 600, or a German/Euro version of the Grizzly (Holzkraft) with ceramic guides for about the same money which would you go for - given that the total requirement is mixed resawing down to more typical profiling tasks with a fine blade?

One possible caution is that minimal crowing on the Aggie's wheels mean it might struggle to track smaller blades, but the flip side could be that the 636 might not track wider blades so well?

ian

PS pardon another b/s thread...

[Eiji Fuller]

I can't get enough of bandsaw threads. I'm a bandsaw junkie.

I went thru the same dilemma a while back. I was considering the G0531 but along came a Felder 540 practically new and that's the end of that story.

The 636 looks like a great machine with loads of features but for that kind of money I'm sure most buyers will just spend a little bit more and get an Italian stallion. They have been the best for so long it's going to take a lot more than a few good reviews to get that out of people's minds. Now if the 636 was priced a few hundred less it would be a no brainer, I think.

[ian maybury]

Hi Eiji. I've trawled threads on so many forums that I'm blue in the face, and in doing so read your story - that was a nice break you got on the Felder. Bandsaws are indeed fascinating beasts, in that the spec sheets don't necessarily convey a true picture.

I guess I was hoping there might be more user experience with the 636 about since then.

The barrier seems to be that there is very little overlap between committed, high end and professional Italian users, and bandsaws like Grizzly which haven't been (I think) typically regarded as of 'professional' quality.

So that while there's lots of partisan views on the Grizzly, and little doubt that the high end heavy duty Italians do the business when properly set up, there's very little feedback based experience of the GO636XB by this type of user on the web.

It doesn't help either that there's nothing by way of 'infomercials' on it like for example Minimax USA's very informative MM 16 demo video - only the assertion on the Grizzly site that the 636 was designed to take on the Italians

Much like you did my gut feeling is that the 636 (it's the German market Holzkraft branded variant I'm looking at: http://www.holzkraft-maschinen.de/produkte/holzkraft/bandsaegen/hbs-533-s-633-s/index.html) is very likely a lot better than it gets credit for. It's certainly packing a significantly better spec sheet than the used Aggazani NRA 600 I'm also considering (used machine choice is much more limited in Ireland), and looks very well finished - to the point where I'm reluctant to go the 'safe' Italian route.

Yet without much informed feedback there's this nagging doubt that it could be a bit like the earlier Japanese cars and motorcycles - great value, solid kit, got all the bells and whistles - but a little lacking on the subtleties of e.g. handling and steering that only become an issue for more demanding buyers.

Against that Popular Woodworking have as previously reported here been very impressed by its build, performance and consistency on mixed resaw and fine work, and made it one of their tools of the year (2009).

Is it possibly the breakthrough model from the East???

ian

[Dave Lehnert]

Is that Grizzly model the one Popular Woodworking likes so much?

If so, I happen to live close to Pop wood shop and have gotten a good look at the saw. It seems very, very well built.

[Eiji Fuller]

The 636 could be the breakthru model but there has to be enough sales and feedback for that to happen. At the price its listed for I just dont see that happening. If your going to spend 2k on a BS why not a few hundred more for a tried and true reliable winner in an Italian saw.

That said Grizzly Bandsaws (the big ones) are impressive machines and grace many a professional shop. The quality is there and Im sure the 636 is fantastic and worth every penny. But...

Another thing is that it is still only a 17" machine and what is it competing against than? I guess the MM16 and Agazzani B18.

The new 19" 701 looks fantastic but at $2800.00? Come on. The new Felder FB600 can be had for 2995.00 and the Agazzani B20 is less than that I think, and you can get a MM20 for close to that. No way the Griz is going to win this race. At this rate I dont even think they are in it.

[ian maybury]

That's the saw Dave - they had it as one of their machines of the year for 2009 after reviewing it briefly in June.

Yes and no to my mind Eiji. It's different here compared to your scene in the US, in that in Ireland (and also the UK) the Holzkraft HBS 633S (a 636 with a German distributor's label on) is very significantly cheaper than a heavy duty Italian of similar capacity and spec. The Italians are sold through distributors that demand high prices, and don't/can't subscribe to the pile 'em high approach that underpins US prices. (the market is far too small)

This in the end forces US prices down, you can buy a new Italian in the US for $1,000 - $1,200 less than I can buy one here - and it'll probably have US market upgrades on it at that. The single 1 year old Aggazani NRA 600 I know of (in our collapsed market) is likely even with heavy negotiation to cost almost as much as a new 633S/636.

What's more many of the Italians here variously skimp on spec here - for example have a simple wooden block in place of a lower guide, some have basic guides, are not available in single phase, have less motor, and are poorly finished.

Almost all go into joinery rather than the much more precise and heavy resaw requirement of cabinet making - with the result that many of the saws sold here are the next level down (lighter construction).

The Aggi is possibly an exception as far as engineering standards go, but that's only via hearsay. The MM 16in HD seems another very good saw, but again seems to be a US market model. It could easily be the secret of some of it's performance (smaller, stiffer frame), but it looks to be a 400mm saw stretched to give more resaw capacity.

Even if price wasn't an issue I think it's a bit too early to play safe by going for a used Italian - it could end up being quite a mistake. I haven't seen the mentioned Agazzani yet, but the 633S/636 looks a lot better finished than the Italians I've seen so far. Plus it's new, and it's got a warranty unlike a used machine - so less risk of undisclosed problems.

What's more it ticks quite a few boxes over a UK spec Aggi 600 - it claims a similar or slightly larger width, depth of cut and blade capacity, is heavier by almost 100kg, is up by an extra 2hp, has nifty quickie blade release and table tilt systems, has ceramic top and bottom guides, and seems very heavily and nicely engineered in general.

What's left at the end of the day though is that (despite the fact that the 633S/636 is the sole (e.g. Grizzly) model pitched to compete directly with the high end Italians) there's so little feedback on it from professional/industrial users that it's hard as above to figure if it equals their performance.

The limited feedback I've seen is positive, but it's in the end it's only words and not well enough described to know if it compares apples with apples...

ian

[Eiji Fuller]

Ian,

In your case I think it makes a lot of sense to go ahead with the 636. If I were in your shoes that is what I would do. Go for it. Then write us a review.
Is the 19" available there?

[ian maybury]

There's a smaller Holzkraft HBS 533S (actually with 20in wheels) available too which is listed beside and seems to share exactly the same construction as the 24in 633S/636 Eiji.

It costs about $640 less than the HBS 633S, has the same 4kW/5.3HP motor and roughly 35mm max blade width. (t.b.c. as in the form its sold in by Axminster tools in the UK it's got 2.75kW - the maker OAV lists 5hp as an option though)

The vertical capacity is reduced versus the 633S from 400mm (16in) to 350mm (14in), the rip width by about 100mm and the table by about the same each side. Weight is down from 380kg to a still pretty beefy 305kg.

It's an extremely attractive option in that it doesn't seem to give away any specification other than the capacity dimensions, and the cost saving would make it much less painful - although it's even more of an unknown quantity, and I can't decide (given that I'm trying to establish a long term general purpose cabinet making operation) if the reduced resaw height and rip width would be a mistake or not. My planer thicknesser is 16in Hammer A3 410, and right now it feels like maybe 13in is about the max resaw depth that will be needed. i.e. the 633 might just add an extra cushion.

Unless again you guys know better. In what circumstances might 16in of resaw depth and an extra 100mm of rip capacity prove useful?

I'll be happy to report when I do get a machine, and if forced by lack of information will have to take a flier on which machine to go for. Right now the local seller has an enquiry in with the factory rep for me.


ian

[ian maybury]

PS/correction/boob. Turns out I was mistakenly equating the GO636XB Grizzly with the big 24in Holzkraft 633S mentioned above.

On a closer reading of the literature it turns out that the 21in GO531B and 24in GO568 respectively are probably the direct equivalents of the HBS 633S and 533S respectively, albeit with some minor bolt on differences.

The GO636XB is actually a smaller 17in saw (extended?) to give a large 16in of vertical capacity in a saw that looks like it's directly targeting the Minimax MM 16.....

ian

[Van Huskey]

+1 on Eiji's comments including loving a BS thread.

The G0636 is a solidly built saw BUT for the difference in cash I would look to the proven track record of the benchmark Italian saws, they have a golden reputation for a reason. I will take a proven track record of a few dollars and some bells and whistles any day.

One note if you get the Grizzly I would personally get the foot brake model. I find the foot brake far more useful in actual use since you often end up working on a bandsaw facing the side of the blade or the rear of the blade both of which make it very hard to reach the switch but still easy to reach the foot brake.

[John Stan]

As it says. Just how good is the Grizzly GO636XB?

It's got very good reviews, it's pitched squarely to compete with the high end, heavy duty Italian models, and seems to match or surpass them on specs like HP, weight and so on.

Can anybody with direct experience say whether or not it performs as well (flatness, thickness, finish, repeatability, wear and tear and general lack of fussiness) on 12-13in deep resawing of veneers in hardwoods with e.g. an 1 3/8in Lenox CT blade as say a Minimax MM 16 or a year old Aggazani NRA 600?

Given a choice between a used Aggazani NRA 600, or a German/Euro version of the Grizzly (Holzkraft) with ceramic guides for about the same money which would you go for - given that the total requirement is mixed resawing down to more typical profiling tasks with a fine blade?

One possible caution is that minimal crowing on the Aggie's wheels mean it might struggle to track smaller blades, but the flip side could be that the 636 might not track wider blades so well?

ian

PS pardon another b/s thread...
Ian,
I have the G0636X bandsaw and it is every bit as as good as people says. I use a 1 inch Lenon tri metal on this saw to cut 1/32 veneer out of 8 and 12 inch boards. I also put a 1/8 blade on it for curve cutting. No issues what so ever. It is very well built and heavy.
-John

[Perry Holbrook]

I am also a happy owner of this saw.

Perry

[ian maybury]

Thank you for chiming in guys, sounds like the 636 is working for you. That's the first resaw specific feedback I've got on the 636 or any of the big Grizzlies John, so thank you. It's damn hard to get to realities on this topic, but so far I've not heard anybody trash one.

I'd agree in principle on reputation versus a few dollars Van, but as above to Eiji there's a lot more than a few dollars difference involved over here - enough that it's worth my while to do some digging to get to the facts.

Being in Ireland (a tiny market) there's rarely saws to be seen on display, or in use on cabinet type applications either - so I can't go and look at the damn things.

Maybe a message to Mr Grizzly. It's clear there's a real glass ceiling at work in terms of high end resaw bandsaw perceptions (either that or there are real shortcomings if you buy a non Italian) - it's like only very rarely do the high end Italian 'thoroughbred' resaw and other worlds cross over. This could be for genuine marketing and technical reasons (see below), or is maybe just a matter of perceptions.

If the latter then maybe something like the long Minimax USA MM 16in demo video would help to puncture this??? http://www.minimax-usa.com/index2.php?option=com_seyret&no_html=1&task=embedpopup&vthumb=seyretfiles/thumbs/mm16.jpg&vcode=http1twodots125ja2525ja25wwwp_p_pminimaxm_m_ musap_p_pcom25ja25seyretfiles25ja25localvideos25ja 25mm16_lop_p_pflv&servertype=localfile&vidwindow=popup

The big Italian industrial saws seem to be uncompromisingly set up to function in a professional environment involving resawing - they have very strong tensioning mechanisms, very stiff frames and low camber or almost flat wheels.

This very clearly separates them from the consumer grade saws sold in the smaller sizes (much of Grizzly's business I guess) - which it seems have highly cambered (rounded/convex) wheels and weak tension springs. Convex wheels make the tracking of especially narrow blades much less difficult for the unskilled, but are not suited to wider blades. They are not really needed for narrower blades either in professional circumstances - i.e. on an accurate and well set up saw.

Weak tension springs make it hard to overload lightweight frame and wheel mountings, but again are of no use with resaw blades.

To put it another way. The issue I'm finding with the big Grizzly/Holzkraft 17, 19, 21 and 24in saws is that it's very tough to figure whether or not they are set up as serious industrial/professional models, or are instead more like large size consumer grade saws.

It's like it used to be when buying a sports motorcycle. The Japanese models for many years ticked the boxes, looked the business and had all the gizmos - but underneath the 'bling' were heavily compromised to suit the unskilled Joe. (who actually was happier with them that way anyway)

An Italian sports bike on the other hand was the real deal (or at least a much more purist proposition) - it took a lot of care to keep right, but it really (only) worked well at racing speeds.

It's only very recently that the Japanese have started producing 'professional' standard sports bikes. The pay off though is significant - in that given the Japanese holistic mindset they are still developed to work much better in everyday use than the narrowly focused (some would say underdeveloped) Italian thoroughbreds.

I guess I'm trying to figure out if the high end Taiwanese saws (these ones all come from a company called OAV) might have reached this point yet. (or not) It's worth a look though in my case given the substantial price difference over here, and because of late Grizzly (and other models from the good Taiwanese makers) seem to be getting consistently good feedback.....

[Eiji Fuller]

Ian,
I have used the big Grizzlies in a large shop. They are built- for the industrial setting. Go for it already!:D

[ian maybury]

I'll give my dealer another few days to get back Eiji, but after that I think you're right - there comes point when it's time to follow your gut/the vibes you seem to be picking up. (and i've got plenty of the first ;))

It's not the 'safe' option, but what the hell...

ian

[Bret Leishman]

I purchased my G0636X, having chosen it over the Italian saws, about a year ago. Have posted with pictures before. Have added the extension table and attached the telescoping support arm to the base of the saw (rather than straight down to the floor). This maintains mobility with my GreatLakes casters. This extra table area has made the saw much safer and convenient for the large turning planks I cut with it. I frequently am cutting at full 16" thickness capacity in oak and black walnut. Cuts are smooth and easy (with quality blade).

[ian maybury]

Ta Bret. I searched again just now using the advanced option, and it came up along with a few more threads I'd not seen before as well.

Sounds like you're still very pleased with your saw! :)

It's becoming noticeable by now that Grizzly seem to get very little if any negative press - either for the product, or for their service....

ian

[Bret Leishman]

Ian, have added some pictures so you can see the table extension which it appears the G0636XB comes with, also took advantage of a chance to show the stubby. Think you will be pleased with any of this caliber of saw, I think the Grizzly belongs on your short list.

[Eiji Fuller]

I think Ian is looking at the 0531 the 21" 5hp or 0568 24" 5hp. Both of which are fine big saws. the 17" is a little dainty for what i like.

[Bret Leishman]

Ian specifically referenced the G0636XB in his initial post. Rightly I believe in using it to compare to the Italian saws. You may be confusing saws Eiji, I would hardly consider the G0636XB as dainty in comparison. The G0636XB is almost 100 lbs heavier than the G0531B and has 3" greater height cutting capacity,which is for me far more important than the throat capacity, especially with the table extension. For my purposes the G0636 fits the bill with the same height capacity in a more compact unit than the G0568. Not sure if Ian is a spinny guy or plans to be in future, but I feel it is very important to try to match bandsaw height cutting capacity to your lathe. My lathe has a 26"-30" swing so my bandsaw's 16" cutting height I feel is a minimum. My opinion for what its worth ($0).

[Eiji Fuller]

PS/correction/boob. Turns out I was mistakenly equating the GO636XB Grizzly with the big 24in Holzkraft 633S mentioned above.

On a closer reading of the literature it turns out that the 21in GO531B and 24in GO568 respectively are probably the direct equivalents of the HBS 633S and 533S respectively, albeit with some minor bolt on differences.

The GO636XB is actually a smaller 17in saw (extended?) to give a large 16in of vertical capacity in a saw that looks like it's directly targeting the Minimax MM 16.....

ian

you might want to read the whole thread first Bret.

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. I initially made a mistake in saying that the 636X is equivalent to the Holzkraft branded saw I can buy in Ireland Bret. Sorry to confuse the situation.

My focus is solid wood furniture making, I'm gearing up from a modest hobby base to go commercial so forum help is invaluable. The driver in this situation is the need to put in place a consistent and reliable 12 - 13in deep precision resaw/veneer cutting capability - in a saw that will handle more general purpose tasks as well. Thanks for the photos. That's quite some bowl in the picture.

My reading of the situation on the 636X is that it's set up as a mixed general purpose and resaw bandsaw to compete with the highly regarded Minimax MM16. It seems likewise to be a slightly smaller machine with the frame extended vertically, and with added strength to give a similar very large vertical/resaw capacity for the wheel size. This should leave it very well set up for trimming very heavy turning blanks (?) as you have found too Bret.

The 636 is from this vantage point a 'safer' choice than the 21in GO531B or 24in GO568 equivalents available here branded as Holzkraft - there's a lot more been written about it, its got very good reviews, and in targeting high end Euro saws it presumably performs like them too.

Trouble is it's not offered over here, and as a model seems to be specific to Grizzly. Another factor is that the extra rip width/throat on the 21 or 24 in saws might be useful for profiling table tops or the like.

It's hard to tell whether the GO531B/HBS533S or GO568/HBS633S share the really solid construction of the 636/Minimax 16 or not. Woodworking product literature frustrates me in this regard - it hypes stuff to death, but it's not very informative on technical specifics.

The weight and the less than clear pictures at least suggests they may. Another positive is that while Holzkraft handle Minimax, Technomax, Casadei and similar professional/industrial level Italian woodworking machines they don't seem to offer their bandsaws - but do offer these OAV/Taiwanese made (Grizzly) 4kW 'heavy duty precision' 'S' model bandsaws at the top of their range. They have stock 533 and 633 models with a little less power, and a lighter construction available too - which also bodes well.

Or so it seems... :rolleyes:

ian

PS the Holzkraft saws have ceramic faced disc type blade guides fitted

[Van Huskey]

Ian, now I think I have some handle on your situation. You are trying to do the oft difficult cross comparison between look-alike saws. The one thing I can say is that the 531 and 568 are NOT as robustly built as the 636 compared to their wheel size. The 636 is an overbuilt saw the 531 and 568 are built in a more traditional manner. I can not speak to the 531 since I have only seen it but the 568 is a solid saw and if its equal exists it would be a solid saw as well.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Most people do not realize that we have added a larger "brother" to the G0636X.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/19-Ultimate-Bandsaw/G0701

It has the same overbuilt and fine quality attributes as the G0636X series.

[ian maybury]

That's news to me too Shiraz, thank you. Trouble is I'm not aware of the saw being available over here.

You got it Van, and thanks for the input. There's probably loads been written about the Holzkraft S series saws in German, but unfortunately I don't speak the language. So I've been trying to figure which Grizzly model(s) are equivalent, and check out the sort of reviews they have been getting in the US....

ian

[ian maybury]

Hi guys, just an update and to say that for good or ill i've bought a big bandsaw. I've been waiting for weeks for hard info from our local importer of the 21 or 24in OAV/Holzkraft saws mentioned above with no luck - his contacts have been on vacation.

Events conspired to move things along. I talked to a guy closing his kitchen making shop and selling a late 2008 NRA600 (the stock US 24in) Agazzani 3kW (the latest model with the yellow blade guard, and the more accurate guides - they rate the HP a little lower at 50Hz i think) with very little done a couple of months ago, but it was well over the cost of a new OAV, and out of my price range.

He called me back this week (the market for saws in Ireland is non existent with so many shops having gone out of business as a result of the collapse of our construction boom), and offered me a very attractive deal indeed subject to inspection.

I bought the saw today for a considerable saving over the new OAV - which is spotless. The big advantage is that (a) it's a proven package so far as i can tell in resaw and other performance terms, and (b) it should be worth the price forever.

So whoopee, and thank you all for helping me along this far. Please pardon the late change in tack - i was keen on the OAV, but sometimes life gives you a hint.

I hope i've not offended anybody by asking for but not seeming to act on advice. All i have to do now is to get some good blades (especially a good carbide resaw blade), and figure out how to power it from my 220V single phase supply. (Ireland)

It's looking like a rotary converter, or maybe a motor change is on the cards - it'll take some work to figure the best approach. I spoke to Jesse Barragan the US Agazzani importer a couple of days ago to resolve some technical questions which cleared the way for me to buy, he's a gent and could not have been more helpful - despite having only a minimal commercial interest in the situation. Chasing somebody at the factory in Italy sounded like hard work.

Next maybe a carbide tipped Lenox resaw blade, some careful set up, and some trials...

ian

[Van Huskey]

Sounds great Ian!

Jesse is THE man, nobody in the machine industry that I have come in contact with provides customer service like he does.

We need pics of the big baby when you have a chance.