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Dave Wagner
07-23-2010, 7:00 AM
Just happend to stop at a yard sale, found this, Sargent 409....
so I checked it out, all parts there, looks pretty good....
a little elbow grease, wire wheel, some paint and some wood polish.....

http://sawmillcreek.org/picture.php?albumid=363&pictureid=3700

After
http://sawmillcreek.org/picture.php?albumid=363&pictureid=3701

scott spencer
07-23-2010, 8:14 AM
That cleaned up nicely Dave. Definitely a good save!

My mother grabbed a Sargent 409 for me at a rummage sale late last summer. I haven't cleaned it up much yet, but it was in a little better shape to start with, and works pretty well as is.

George Sanders
07-23-2010, 8:25 PM
That did clean up nice.

Jim Koepke
07-23-2010, 8:51 PM
Great save!!!

Has anyone put together a Sargent type study as of yet?

jim

Bill Houghton
07-23-2010, 10:01 PM
Great save!!!

Has anyone put together a Sargent type study as of yet?

jim

Seems to be some, but limited, information here: http://www.sargent-planes.com/sargent-plane-pointers

I have two No. 79s (the Sargent equivalent of the Stanley 78), and there is a reference to Type 1 and Type 2 versions of the 79.

Sadly, there does not seem to be the deep knowledge base you find with Stanley tools.

Dave Wagner
07-24-2010, 8:25 AM
I see they list different versions, 409, Type 1, Type 2? How do you know the difference(s). But a big difference in price.

Thanks

Terry Beadle
07-24-2010, 10:11 AM
Great save !

I shoulda seen a gloat in there some where !

That's a great plane and remarkable restore work.

Thanks for showing a great new friend in your shop.

Kemil Pepin
07-24-2010, 12:55 PM
Seems to be some, but limited, information here: http://www.sargent-planes.com/sargent-plane-pointers


Thanks for the link Bill, looks like there is some good info there.

Good job on the plane rehab Dave. I have some Sargents that are users, I like them just as much as the Stanleys. On the block planes, I like the mouth adjuster much better than the Stanleys.

Kemil

Rob Harris
08-30-2011, 1:39 PM
Your 409 is a Type 5, made between 1942 and 1950. This later model had a taller knob and a tote with a shorter horn than previous models, made of mahogany (1925-1947) or an unspecified hardwood (1948-1950). Information on Sargents is much harder to come by than Stanley planes, but you can get a copy of Dave Heckel's Sargent Planes Identification and Value Guide. It's well worth the price if you pick up any more Sargents.

I had a full set of Sweetheart Stanley planes until I bought a Sargent 409 a few years ago. After that, my Stanleys started gathering dust and I eventually sold them all. Comparing Stanleys to Sargents of the same era, the Sargents seem to be better made in my opinion. Perhaps they had to be to compete against Stanley, who dominated the market. They have thicker castings, better materials (East Indian Mahogany is amazing stuff), thicker plane blades, and have more "presence" in your hand. Sargent did cut some corners, specifically a sheared steel lateral adjuster, a brass plated steel thumbwheel for depth control, no frog fine adjustment screw, and their nickel plated parts are notorious for flaking (especially on their router planes).

For collectors/users, Sargents are mostly overlooked and are cheaper overall than Stanleys though interest has picked up a lot from a few years ago. Another plus is that Sargent made planes under a lot of other Brand names - Belknap Blue Grass, Sears Craftsman and Dunlap, Shapleigh Diamond Edge and Keen Kutter, Winchester, and Marshall-Wells Zenith, to name a few, so replacement parts from donor planes is easier than you think. The only problem I've found is getting East Indian Mahogany, a.k.a. Andaman padouk, to fashion replacements or make repairs to totes and knobs.

Enjoy the 409. Try not to hum the Beach Boys song while you use it.

maximillian arango
01-02-2014, 11:19 PM
I hate to bring a thread back to from the dead but what was used clean this plane? I just picked up a 409 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sargent-Smooth-Plane-Restoration-project-Has-Rust-/331091840484?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=J31kffnreUNTxN9dwcCnB3uF%252Fac%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc) my self and it has cleaned up nicely but I just didn't want to hurt it. Basically my iron and cap are the only things left with rust and I like how clean and "original" those came out.

Jim Koepke
01-03-2014, 12:35 AM
I hate to bring a thread back to from the dead but what was used clean this plane? I just picked up a 409 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sargent-Smooth-Plane-Restoration-project-Has-Rust-/331091840484?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=J31kffnreUNTxN9dwcCnB3uF%252Fac%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc) my self and it has cleaned up nicely but I just didn't want to hurt it. Basically my iron and cap are the only things left with rust and I like how clean and "original" those came out.

Dang, 7 bids and still less in dollars plus the shipping is more than twice the price.

I remember those days.

Thanks for the memories.

One of my planes has a lever cap with 409 on the back from before the days of Sargent on the front.

jtk

David M Anderson
01-03-2014, 1:34 AM
Mine was not quite as bad and I don't have a before photo.

What I used on my Sargent 409 was just lemon juice on all the metal pieces.
After a 24 hour soaking, wash off very hot water and yes 409 cleaner..no joke.
Clean up the grayish black residue with steel wool 00 to 0000.
Imagine a 3M pad would work just fine, I just have an abundance of steel wool...

Sole and sides where lapped true...

maximillian arango
01-03-2014, 11:32 AM
Dang, 7 bids and still less in dollars plus the shipping is more than twice the price.

I remember those days.

Thanks for the memories.

I was surprised I won, I only bid 6 dollars. Every screw was just about seized so I used some pb blast and it all came apart and the dust came right off to show that almost all the paint was still there.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/arangov3/Tools/20140103_112125_zps572ee88f.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/arangov3/media/Tools/20140103_112125_zps572ee88f.jpg.html)





As you can see I still have more to do but after 20 minutes of lapping it looks promising to me.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/arangov3/Tools/20140103_112939_zps16b1376b.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/arangov3/media/Tools/20140103_112939_zps16b1376b.jpg.html)

maximillian arango
01-03-2014, 11:41 AM
Mine was not quite as bad and I don't have a before photo.

What I used on my Sargent 409 was just lemon juice on all the metal pieces.
After a 24 hour soaking, wash off very hot water and yes 409 cleaner..no joke.
Clean up the grayish black residue with steel wool 00 to 0000.
Imagine a 3M pad would work just fine, I just have an abundance of steel wool...

Sole and sides where lapped true...

Silly question did you squeeze lemons and make your lemon juice or was this store bought lemon juice? I just am not sure how some of the added stuff will act. Any reason for me to drop the bed in as well?

Jim Koepke
01-03-2014, 12:54 PM
Can't answer for David but one of the powdered lemon drinks is almost all citric acid.

It is a cheap source if no other is available.

Not sure who mentioned that a few years back in one of the plane cleaning threads.

jtk

maximillian arango
01-03-2014, 1:26 PM
I'm gonna try to find that thread I Luke the idea of using lemon so I can do it in doors compared to other methods.

Glad to here about the powder because I have to many cuts on my hands and wasn't looking to get it in my cuts.

David M Anderson
01-03-2014, 11:12 PM
Looking real good...
As far as the question about lemon juice, just the regular buy at the grocery store bottle..
Make sure parts are fully immersed or it will leave a line where the metal isn't, that is hard to get rid of.
Only have done two plane bottoms in lemon juice, but all my cap irons and lever caps screws etc..have been cleaned with it.
Usually do electrolysis on very rusty parts and bottoms.

don wilwol
01-04-2014, 6:51 AM
http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/determining-a-sargent-bench-plane-vintage/

maximillian arango
01-04-2014, 7:14 PM
I have dropped the blade in vinegar for now since I had it on hand and forgot to get lemon at the grocery store. I will update with pictures just so you guys can see what vinegar can do.

maximillian arango
01-04-2014, 9:24 PM
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/arangov3/Tools/20140104_211608_zps2eb371e9.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/arangov3/media/Tools/20140104_211608_zps2eb371e9.jpg.html)

So far so good I hit it with a welding wire brush for 30 minites and it is looking much better.

David M Anderson
01-04-2014, 10:09 PM
Yes-siree,
It really is coming along nice, also have read that vinegar works well, glad you posted the results.
It's real gratifying when you clean or restore a plane back to what it looked like new. Even better when it also become a great user.

maximillian arango
01-05-2014, 1:16 AM
I would have tried the lemon but I'm cheap :D and my girlfriend had vinegar under the sink so I said why not! I use vinegar all the time to break free caliper pistons that have seized when I do rebuilds so I thought it would do some good on the rust. I dropped it back in the bucket for the rest of the night I'll check it when I wake up at 7. I am trying to figure out what I am going to coat this with so it doesn't flash rust I am going to go with pb blast for now but I am reading up on Johnson's paste wax and may go with that in the long run. I have to do this to 2 more planes, I just wanted to practice on this one first since it was more disposable than the other too.

A few last questions:
Do I keep lapping the bottom till that spot comes out or should I drop this in a bath as well?
Can I drop the whole frog in or will that damage the "paint"(I forgot what it was called)?
Any ideas on getting the rust that is the valleys of the Sargent logo?

Anthony Diodati
01-05-2014, 7:12 AM
So that is 2 1/2" wide, same as a Stanley 4 1/2?

don wilwol
01-05-2014, 9:32 AM
So that is 2 1/2" wide, same as a Stanley 4 1/2?

A #409 is the same as a #4. It has a 2" cutter.

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 6:59 AM
Question I have what I think is a Sargent 409 but it is slightly larger than a Stanley number 4. Is this correct? Am I missing something maybe it's not a 409.

don wilwol
09-24-2015, 7:14 AM
Both Stanley and Sargent sizes varied "slightly" over time so its possible they are not exact. Give us the dimensions and we can help. Pictures and I'll even date it for you.

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 9:50 PM
322097The sargent

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 9:51 PM
322098Iron

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 9:53 PM
322099More

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 9:54 PM
322100Nose to nose with a Stanley Bailey no 4.

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 9:55 PM
322101Soles lined up

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 9:57 PM
322102Length quite different as well. The plane is marked 409 on the iron and on the bottom of the frog. The sole has no markings other than made in the USA

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 10:02 PM
322103Wider

Vinnie Lopez
09-24-2015, 10:03 PM
322105Longer

maximillian arango
09-24-2015, 10:34 PM
I'm going to measure mine up in the morning for you, I know I'll wake my wife if I do this right now.

maximillian arango
09-25-2015, 7:05 AM
Mine sits at 9 7/8"

don wilwol
09-25-2015, 7:39 AM
here are mine

type 1 - 9 3/4" x 2 3/8"
type 2 - 9 3/4" x 2 3/8"
type 3 - 9 3/4" x 2 3/8"
type 4 - 9 7/8" x 2 7/16"
type 5 - 9 7/8" x 2 3/8"
type 6 - 9 3/4" x 2 5/8"