Hand cut dovetails class

[Mike Henderson]

I recently committed to teach a one day (about 6 hours) class on hand cut dovetails and would like your comments on what to teach in the class. The class size would be a max of six people, and a minimum of three.

I'll probably start with defining what a dovetail joint is, then what it's used for. Then the types of dovetails joints, and where you'd use different types of dovetail joints.

Probably then discuss the tools used in dovetail joinery, including how to make your own layout (tail angle) gauge, and how to mark the depth without a marking gauge.

Next, I'll discuss how to layout the dovetails across the board, and what indicates hand cut dovetails compared to machine cut dovetails.

Then demonstrate how to cut a through dovetail, and have the students cut theirs.

Later, demonstrate a half blind and have the students cut theirs.

Then a discussion of how to glue and clamp the joint, with perhaps a demonstration. And how to trim the joint with a plane after the glue has set.

No project - just pieces of wood joined together. I could add a section on how to repair mistakes in dovetails, but I might not have time to cover that in detail.

Any comments or suggestions? All will be appreciated.

Mike

[Mike Fairleigh]

Just that I'd like to be in the class!

[Jack Camillo]

Sounds great. I would include handouts (with pictures, too) so folks can later recall everything you spoke about and showed them. Some people do these classes and then don't get a chance for a couple months to practice what they've learned, etc.

[Eric Brown]

Mike it sounds good so far. In addition you might try to explain how the spacing effects strength and when/how you can make adjustments in spacing for looks.

Info on sliding and tapered dovetails would be nice.
Hardwood vs softwood considerations.
How exposed end grain finishes different from long grain
Explain the differences in types of glue.
Might even inspire them with some pictures of Jims Koepke'sheart shaped dovetails.
Maybe some pictures of Roy Underhills "Impossible" mallet.

Wish you the best, good luck.

Eric

[Steve Branam]

Nice! I'm going to be doing a 9-hr course (six 90-minute classes) in Oct-Nov with a local Parks & Rec Dept. The topic will be intro to hand tools, going through all the most basic operations, and ending with dovetails.

However, I'm not going to go deep on them, not enough time for that. Just basic through-dovetails the way Roy Underhill shows for the workbench skirting in "The Woodwright's Apprentice". I also like Frank Klaus' method in "Hand Tool Essentials", but I find Roy's just a touch simpler and more rigorous in layout without being obsessive.

The idea is to show the students individual skills, then practice them several times to the point they can go deeper on their own. We'll probably only have time to practice one dovetail joint; part of my goal this first time through is to fine tune the class length (assuming there will be enough demand to repeat it!).

I'll also be posting the material on my blog, including a reference list of all the books and videos I learned from. I want to encourage students to explore further, because there are many ways to get the job done, and I only have time to show one or two.

[Roger Benton]

Mike,

For thew dovetail portion of the joinery class I teach I basically add two things to your list:

-On scrap stock I have students lay out a dozen or more lines at angles similar to tails and pins and practice sawing them, half right of the line, half left. Some students really get into this and make quite a few test cuts.

-I borrow Gary Rogowski's "5 minute dovetail" exercise, which is basically 2"x3"x5/8" scrap and joined with one large tail.

I also print out exploded drawings of furniture pieces using the joints to illustrate where/how it can be applied.

Are there enough vices available for the max # of students?
I don't have enough so I use a vertical bench hook. I made 4 of them. It uses one F-clamp to secure it to a bench, another to secure work to it. I think it was a Chris Schwarzizm.

[lowell holmes]

I would spend 15 minutes talking about sawing on a line. I might introduce a sawing exercise.

I would also show how a oblique light on the work piece shows the line clearly. I would show a cheap incadescent adjustable desk lamp mounted temporarily in a dog hole helps with this light.

I'm not good enough to conduct a class, but these are things that helped me.

Oh, I should have read Rogers reply before posting mine.
:o

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for all your suggestions. I especially like the idea of the sawing exercises - I forget how much trouble that can be for people new to dovetails.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

I did this recently ... http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/handcutting-dovetails-workshop-perth-118706/index3.html#post1172416

Best of luck with yours ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Fox]

Mike - my thoughts. Please keep in mind I have never taught a class (FAR from qualified) but took a very well run in-depth one very recently so this is fresh from the student's perspective.


I recently committed to teach a one day (about 6 hours) class on hand cut dovetails and would like your comments on what to teach in the class. The class size would be a max of six people, and a minimum of three.

I'll probably start with defining what a dovetail joint is, then what it's used for. Then the types of dovetails joints, and where you'd use different types of dovetail joints.


You are working on a very compressed timeline if you want the students to come away with anything that they can go back to their shop and try on their own with any hope of being successful. These are good things to know and talk about but I think you should just mention them and do the whole thing in 5-minutes tops. Perhaps you can send this info out early as "prerequisute reading" and make the assumption that everyone knows it or can intuit it as thye go along.


Probably then discuss the tools used in dovetail joinery, including how to make your own layout (tail angle) gauge, and how to mark the depth without a marking gauge.

Tool discussion will be good. The how to make your own stuff will eat up too much time relative to the value. Most students are probably going to have cool shiny stuff and if they don't they will probably go out and buy it before attempting their own.



Next, I'll discuss how to layout the dovetails across the board, and what indicates hand cut dovetails compared to machine cut dovetails.

Yep, understanding the layout really helps.

As others have posted, I think a sawing exercise is in order at this point followed by a discussion of chiseling and some practice. Another thing you should mention but don't have time to spend any time on at all is sharpening.



Then demonstrate how to cut a through dovetail, and have the students cut theirs.

I think you should probably cut it there. I think you will be out of time by the time you demo it and walk around and help students sort out issues they are having. First set will look like they were chewed by a beaver. It is the second set where things really start to sink in but the first set takes a lot of time to get through.



Later, demonstrate a half blind and have the students cut theirs.

Then a discussion of how to glue and clamp the joint, with perhaps a demonstration. And how to trim the joint with a plane after the glue has set.

No project - just pieces of wood joined together. I could add a section on how to repair mistakes in dovetails, but I might not have time to cover that in detail.

With the exception of how to plane it flush, I would cut all this as I predict you are out of time after the through devetail.

Just my $0.02 from a recent student's perspective.

[Jim Koepke]

That seems very ambitious for 6 hours.

I think I would show people how to use a bevel gauge and mention that marking gauges can be bought or made, show examples if you have them.

I also think that a saw exercise is important. I do it often before cutting joinery.

jim

[Ken Cohen]

As a relatively recent student, I would ditto several points that were made in the prior posts:

1. Assuming that you are teaching relative novices, add a basic sawing and chiseling exercise prior to taking on their first dovetail. I second the sawing exercise. For chisels, I would focus on paring to a flat surface and creating a right angle. These exercises need not be long, but they allow practice -- and more importantly, create a venue where mistakes are encouraged and consequence free.

2. A handout of the process for through and half blind dovetails is a great idea. During the exercises, it provides a place to take notes. And, as suggested, most people won't remember all the steps (and I'm not sure that it's important that they do).

3. A question: How do you plan to handle tool condition? I know you lack the time to go into tool prep, etc. But, what about dull saws and chisels?

Good luck.

Ken

[Sean Hughto]

Well, before I can answer, I need to know whether you will be teaching tails first or pins? ;-)

[Mike Brady]

I'd advocate less rather than more in six hours. Your schedule up through the class cutting their through dovetails....the first try.... sounds good. Spend plenty of time on the layout aspect and have them I would have them take a second try after critiquing each student's first effort. It is important that they leave with a sense of real accomplishment. Show them fixes, where they didn't follow their marks, how important the correct layout is to the final result, and how much planing improves the outcome. At this point some students will be ready for half-blinds, but others will need more help. You can let them spend the last hour independently working, but again, try to have each feel good about whatever progress they made.
Have some well-cut joints available for them to take apart and study.

[Eric Brown]

Mike, I'm surprised no one here has said this yet but how about a handout that lists Internet resources - like SawMill Creek!

Maybe a suppliers list. LN, LV, TFWW etc.

Support after the class might be what keeps them going.

Eric

[George Clark]

Mike,

I think your outline sounds fine. You have already received several good suggestions. I would encourage you to prepare some written handouts on the material to be covered. I realize there is gaggle of books and articles out there on cutting dovetails, covering a multitude of techniques and it would be good to reference your favorites. But, what I am referring to is handout referenced to exactly what you intend to cover and how you want it done. I think this accomplishes two important items. First, it forces you really organize your presentation in a meaningful manner and second, it frees the students from trying to take a lot of notes and allows them to really pay attention to your presentation.

I have taken a lot of woodworking classes at several different schools from a multitude of instructors. Without fail, all the instructors have all been masters of their craft. However, there was a huge difference in their ability to transfer those skills to the students, particularly beginning students. That difference was primarily determined by the amount of effort that had been put into focusing on the teaching process. None of these people became masters of their craft without a lot of hard work and study but for some reason some were unwilling to put that same effort and study into teaching their craft. They seemed to believe that because they were a master craftsman that made them a master instructor, NOT. Some, who I refer to as hip shooters, actually appeared plan their lesson based on the ebb and flow of the class. While this "technique" can be interesting it is frequently a huge waste of time in a class where time is limited. (stepping down from the soapbox)

Given that there are so many different methods and techniques of cutting dovetails, I would encourage you to pick what works best for you and request that your students do it that way, at least until they master it.

I hope my little diatribe is of some limited value.

George

[Jim Barrett]

Mike,
Layouts using a pair of dividers, quick and easy.
Sawing...saw, saw, saw, saw, saw, saw...I think sawing is the most important aspect of a successful dovetail. If you can saw accurately to a line you are light years ahead. The goal is to put a dovetail together without any pairing....will take some practice....lots of practice :)
Chiseling...how to hold a chisel correctly and comfortably...chopping TO the line and not BRUISING that line....
Of course sharpening is a whole "nother" subject!
Best,
Jim

[Robert Trotter]

The saw exercises are a good idea as others have said. However, I think some good chiselling exercises would be very useful as well. As an example, when I started making dovetails, it was not the sawing that got me, but the chisel work. As stated before, not bruising the tails when removing the waste, how to remove waste entirely with chisels in hardwood and softwood. I have found that removing waste in hardwood is easier with a chisel than in softwood where the fibres crush more.

Also maybe touch on removing the waste with chisels (chopping) or with a coping saw and then paring (chopping) to the line etc.

You could have some exercise where they have to pare to a line or chop to a line and keep all "socket" bases in line, and square. You could watch and give pointers about what is not going right.

Chisel work is important - if your are acurate with the saw then the final product will depend on chisel work and if your are not accurate with a saw then cleaning up will be chisel work.

Just my 2 yen worth

[Steve Branam]

This is all very timely. I've just posted a blog entry detailing the class I'll be teaching: CloseGrain.com/2010/07/class-introduction-to-hand-tool.html.

The outline is something I've been working on for a while. I think it covers most of the points brought up here (I've also just revamped my links, including forum links). It's very helpful to see what other details people want to see covered in a class.

The time will definitely be a challenge, so we'll just have to see how it goes. I may have to make a few executive decisions along the way.

I'll be following up that post with materials for the class over the coming weeks. Feel free to help yourselves if you find it useful (just please give credit to the source), this is all stuff I learned from others, including some of you folks here.

[Roy Lindberry]

I recently committed to teach a one day (about 6 hours) class on hand cut dovetails and would like your comments on what to teach in the class. The class size would be a max of six people, and a minimum of three.

I'll probably start with defining what a dovetail joint is, then what it's used for. Then the types of dovetails joints, and where you'd use different types of dovetail joints.

Probably then discuss the tools used in dovetail joinery, including how to make your own layout (tail angle) gauge, and how to mark the depth without a marking gauge.

Next, I'll discuss how to layout the dovetails across the board, and what indicates hand cut dovetails compared to machine cut dovetails.

Then demonstrate how to cut a through dovetail, and have the students cut theirs.

Later, demonstrate a half blind and have the students cut theirs.

Then a discussion of how to glue and clamp the joint, with perhaps a demonstration. And how to trim the joint with a plane after the glue has set.

No project - just pieces of wood joined together. I could add a section on how to repair mistakes in dovetails, but I might not have time to cover that in detail.

Any comments or suggestions? All will be appreciated.

Mike

I'm still learning to do dovetails by hand, so take my opinion for what its worth.

I like the idea of a handout, but by and large, I would suggest a minimum amount of "book learning" and a maximum of demonstration and hands-on practice. For myself, I've noticed that reading about it has helped minimally, but nearly every time I do it, I'm able to improve at least a little bit.

[Robby Tacheny]

Watching the Frank Klausz dovetailing drawers video helped me a lot, even though I am just barely starting handcut dovetails. So I agree that watching someone and trying will be the best experience. I would recommend showing them how to layout tails for a drawer or box so that the groove is in the proper place. Otherwise, their first project may get ruined by improper layout.

Good luck on the course.

-R

[David Keller NC]

Mike - This is what I include in the one-day classes I've taught on this subject. Like others on this thread, I found that it was necessary to sharply limit the subjects covered so that I could have the students come away with two or more completed joints in scrap wood (a through-dovetail and a half-blind):

Tools. I take about an hour to discuss the required tools, suggest brands and where to get them, and give the students a paper list:

Dovetail saw (most of the discussion is spent with this subject - I suggest the Lee Valley saws as the least expensive option that will still work and not frustrate a beginner, and why this is so).

Dividers (any inexpensive ones will do)

Bevel Gauge (any inexpensive one will do, I recommend the Lee Valley ones). Alternatively, a fixed-angle dovetail marker (also recommend the inexpensive Lee Valley aluminum extrusions)

Small square (just about anything in the 3-4" range, I usually recommend the small engineer's squares)

Marking Knife (I go over the Ian Kirby pocketknife modification, and direct students that want a fancier tool to Lee Valley, Chester, Blue Spruce, etc...)

Chisel - I recommend a 1/4" and a 1/2" pair from the Borg for those that are cost sensitive, and go over how to correctly sharpen them. Others that aren't as cost sensitive I refer to Lie Nielsen.

Fret Saw - I recommend the elcheapo frames from Woodcraft, the Borg, or wherever, and then tell the students to replace the stock blade with a much more aggressive one from Olsen

Wheel Cutting Gauge - I mention these, but also tell the students that they're "nice to haves".

Magnifying glass - elcheapos from the drug store. Not required for experienced folks, but a great aid to beginning sawyers.

Reference material - I recommend Ian Kirby's book to the students because it's well-rounded and it's cheap, and I mention Rob Cosman's videos for students that prefer video over books.

For visual aids, I bring 2 drawers along, and some pictures of case dovetails. This discussion of "what to do with a dovetail", "types of dovetails", and "handcut versus router cut" is minimized - I find most of the students already know since they're going from machine to hand-cut.

After that, the rest of the day (typically 4 hours or so) is taken up with first demoing the layout, sawing, chiseling and fitting of the joint, then allowing enough time for 2 to 3 cycles of the students trying their own, and troubleshooting problems. I repeat this for through-dovetails and half blinds.

Generally speaking, I find that this much content is all I (or the students) can handle in one day, and it's a pretty fast paced day. I leave out a lot - drawer and case construction, glues, clamping, workholding, decorative joints, woods, variations on methods (such as coping saw vs. fret saw vs. chopping), jigs, aids and just touch on sharpening. The reason is that I found most students couldn't absorb all of the info, and it interfered with the important part (in my judgement) - giving the students the thrill of being able correctly layout, cut and fit a completely hand-sawn joint that they had previously considered unreachable.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

Just one point to make ...

My pet dislike when watching a video of someone demonstrating a technique, especially a hand skill such as dovetailing, is that they stand on a spot and talk and talk and talk ...

What I don't understand is why they do not talk and work/demonstrate simultaneously?

Do not lecture for long. Rather get the members - or at least one or two - to try out what you are describing. Maximise the hands-on involvement and minimise the lecturing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

Thank you all for your suggestions. David, those are very good suggestions and I'll follow your advice.

Mike

[Gary Hodgin]

I agree with Jim that this is an ambitious plan for 6 hrs. It depends on what the students bring to class. It's one thing if they all have sharp chisels and appropriate saws, but if you have to teach sharpening, chisel control, and sawing, the 6 hrs is going to go by pretty fast. (What if these students chisels are terribly out-of-shape?) I don't see how much can be done beyond through dovetails, and that will push it.

Several years ago, I took a 5 day class on hand tools use, which was really a 5 day course on how to dovetail a box. We spend at least a day and a half on milling, sharpening, and chisel and hand saw techniques. Now that may seem like a long time, but actually it was a rushed affair.

Almost everyone, including me, came to class with a set of Marple's blue handled chisels right off the shelf at Lowe's. These chisels worked, but they needed a great deal of prep. Our grinders were hand grinders (no one had experience with those) and we only had about a third enough for the class. We had a couple of sets of old water stones for 12 people. Everything went pretty smooth after all this prep. (Milling was part of the prep.) We each had a good work bench and the instructor was great. But, it took use a long time (a lot more than 6 hrs) to get to the actual layout and cutting of through dovetails. The course didn't cover other dovetail joints.

I know from my experience as a teacher that there is always a trade-off between what I think students should know about something and what I can reasonably fit into one or two fifty minute lectures. By far and away the biggest problem is how to condense what I think is important into the lecture. Beyond that I assign homework and just recognize its not doable within the allotted time.

[Greg Crawford]

Mike,

I am still pretty new to hand tools, especially dovetails. I started with the Cosman DVD/workbook, and then took a 6 hour class that had 4 students. We didn't really have enough time for everyone to get a good set of through dovetails. I think trying for the half-blind in the same class would be pushing it.

Lots of other great suggestions (like some exercises that I'll probably be doing on my own). I've taught in other areas, and found that I would sometimes forget what it took for me to get where I was. I could accomplish something quickly and easily, because I had plenty of practice. The students didn't have that yet, so I always tried to set my schedule by remembering back to when I started. Often times I wound up removing content from the curriculum.

Since I had already practiced a little, I knew to expect to at least hone chisels, so I took a sharpening stone with me. Might suggest that to the students in materials needed.

Hope all goes well, and that everyone has a good time learning.

Greg

[Scott Stafford]

... and Larry learned well. His dovetails consistantly looked great!

Scott in Montana

[Larry Fox]

... and Larry learned well. His dovetails consistantly looked great!

Scott in Montana

HA - thanks Scott but I fear that you are being too kind, long way to go. Good to meet you and yours look great as well.

[James Owen]

Mike,

Great outline! Very thorough!

Based on my experience teaching dovetail (and other hand tool) classes, you have two to three days worth of material there.

Nothing in a "hands-on" class EVER goes as quickly as scheduled..... Students ask unanticipated questions, are slower at completing the exercises, etc, etc..... Not a criticism of the students, but something that I've learned while teaching classes: what is intuitive to and quick for you (the instructor) ain't necessarily so, when it comes to the students (that's why they're in your class!! :D)

Unless you know otherwise, plan your class for "inexperienced" students....

As others have mentioned, it's important that the students are able to sense that they have learned/accomplished something worthwhile (and worth the tuition...), so I would limit the lecture/demonstration part to approximately 1/3 of the total class time (not necessarily continuous time) and have the students doing hands-on activities for approx 2/3 of the time.

Other than that, looks like you have a very good class set up. I hope that both you and your students have a great time!!

[James Owen]

Well, before I can answer, I need to know whether you will be teaching tails first or pins? ;-)

Sean....

There always has to be a comedian in the mix, eh?!? :D