Restored #4, RIP?

[Ken Cohen]

Hi--

I need advice whether my restored plane has bit the dust.

Background: Last winter, I had the opportunity at a week long hand woodworking workshop to bring an old Stanley #4 (Type 7?-- purchased by the school at an estate sale) back to great working condition. Lots of hours with 80 grit paper, adjustments to accomodate a new Hock blade and all the usual tuning. The result was my first experience with a great plane -- and six months of great results using it.

Fast Forward to last night when something didn't feel right while smoothing some soft maple. As the pix below hopefully show (you may need to enlarge them), a chunk of metal was suddenly missing from the bottom opening in the sole -- and the that edge was slightly deformed in several places (harder to see in the pix).

Prognosis: I assume my plane is a goner, but welcome any thoughts on whether there is a way to bring it back to its former self?

And, assuming I'm out of luck, I would appreciate suggestions for a good source for a similar plane (4 or 4 1/2)? I've got the Hock blade ready to go - and wouldn't mind another crack at it.

Thanks.

[Sean Hughto]

It doesn't look fatal to me. The most important part of the mouth for performance is the FRONT edge. The back edge is certainly important in supporting the blade, but that little chunk doesn't look like would really hurt blade support signicantly.

By the way, I take it the course covered a lot more than restoring one old plane in that week, right? Wouldn't want to scare anyone into thinking that it takes a week to tune an old Stanley user!

[Sean Hughto]

As far as getting another, 4's a plentiful. A 4 1/2 (different blade required, btw) will cost significantly more as they are less common. Old tool dealers are numerous. I personally have dealt with Patrick Leach, and can vouch for him, but many others are out there that are likely fine sources too. eBay is also a good bet if you know what you are looking for.

[Ken Cohen]

Thanks for the quick reply -- and optimism. Couple of things to add:

As you point out, the plane tuning was a half day (or in my case half night) exercise. I spent more time than anyone else in the class due to the original condition of the sole.

I had your initial reaction -- until I noticed the buckling/warping in several other places along the lower edge. My concern is not the reworking of the sole that would be necessary to return it to a flat state, but rather whether the chip + the buckling represents a larger metal failure that either cannot be fixed or will quickly reoccur.

Thanks for the advice.

[Sean Hughto]

Did you remove a lot of metal on the sole of this plane when you restored it? I've heard of planes where soles were "reground" by spending many minutes on a large beltsander before some further flattening on sandpaper sheets taped to tablesaws or jointer beds. The result can be a thin sole that is delicate, especially around the mouth where the metal is already thinner (at least on the back side). Even planes that have not had a lot of sole thickness removed, when used very hard - or for a long time - or made from a slightly inferior batch of steel on a given day at the mill will tend to devlop cracks at the corners of the mouth. Some endure with cracks for a long time, and some fail.

If the deformity is bad, 4's are ubiquitous (very common) and inexpensive ($50 will get you a great one and $20 is plenty on eBay for a more than decent user).

[David Weaver]

Just keep using it. if it leaves marks on your work, sand the burrs off around the chipout.

[Jim Koepke]

Ken,

The second picture looks like there is also a hole poking through in the location of the knob. This would indicate the sole is a little thin. I have a few type 6 planes that use the same base as the type 7 and they do seem a little thin.

If the plane works OK, I would use it and keep your eyes open for a #4 at a yard sale or where ever. They are quite common.

jim

[Niels Cosman]

doesn't look fatal

seems like a little lapping should take care of the raised metal. If the chipping was in the front of the mouth the prognosis would be somewhat different.

However, I wonder about the cause of this sort of damage. Perhaps in the course of your initial marathon-lapping session didn't wear the metal around the mouth too thin making it weak.

No.4's are pretty common and if you aren't too concerned with looks or a little restoration you can find one pretty cheap. I do like ebay, but without seeing the plane in person there's a lot of little details (like a relatively flat sole, spotting cracks or bad repairs).

Also, on the issue of lapping, or rather how flat is flat enough:
IMHO especially for a smoother, the area around the front of the mouth is the MOST critical region to be lapped flat. This is the area that is most critical in keeping pressure on the wood surface ahead of the cut (keeping fibres from lifting). It is natural that this area will be worn from the friction of regular use and will some maintenance. The issue of OVERALL flatness is another issue and there are some differing opinions on the subject. While all my planes are flat-flat-flat, you can stand to have some convexity to the sole .
Concavity is always unacceptable (unless you are planing circles:)).
Also remember to have your plane fully assembled and the blade tensioned (but not extended) when lapping.

cheers,
Niels

[Mike Brady]

Ken, It appears that you did lap through the meat of the sole of that plane. The tension of the levercap probably was the straw that broke this camel's back. Replaceing that plane will be easy and inexpensive. I would recommend that you pass on any that aren't very flat and then do just a minimal lapping, if any, to get the plane ready for use. Lapping of a plane seems straight forward, yet it really isn't. It often creates new problems. There is a person that I know of who machines plane bottoms flat without sacrificing too much metal. It costs about $50.00 to have this done, and he has done many planes. You might want to go that route, or put your money towards a quality new plane.

[scott spencer]

Ken - It shouldn't be hard to find a suitable replacement because the replacement doesn't need to have good tote, knob, blade, or lever cap... you can swap those from your current plane. You essentially only need a functioning sole and maybe a frog to fit.

[Mike Davis NC]

I wonder if there was a combination of the thin sole and possibly the frog was set too far toward the rear causing the blade to exert too much pressure on the rear of the mouth?

[Joel Goodman]

I would ask Sandy Moss, Walt and/or Patrick if they have a sole of the same vintage as the damaged one -- or post a WTB on our classifieds. You might be able to get just the sole and put everything else back on it.

[lowell holmes]

I have a 5 1/2 Bailey with a nick in the mouth at the same locationas your #4. It does not affect the performance of the plane.

[Ken Cohen]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to give my plane a reprieve.

Following your collective advice, I very lightly resanded the sole to work out the high spots that resulted from the metal deformation on the edge opening.

I also checked the frog placement and found that I had the ability to move it closer to the sole opening while maintaining adequate shaving clearance (so I share the curiosity of one of the posters whether incorrect frog placement led to the failure)

Tuned everything up -- and returned to consistent, light shavings across the full width of the plane.

I continue to marvel at how much I can count on the expertise and help of this forum.

Thanks.

PS. I like the suggestion to keep my eye out for a replacement #4 sole.

Question: As I indicated, I think my current plane is a Type 6 or 7. How close a match do I need on a replacement sole?

[Sean Hughto]

Question: As I indicated, I think my current plane is a Type 6 or 7. How close a match do I need on a replacement sole?

The two main things to look for, assuming you want to use only the sole form the doaner plane, are frog mating casting (this changed over time from a flat place to a H and then to a Y sort of shape) - you need one that matches your frog. Second, you need a sole without a ring cast into the front knob. The tote should fit well enough, I think.