Byrd Heads, How many faces can you really use?

[Ray DuBose]

Looking at a new Joiner/Planer (Hammer A3 31) and they have an option to put a Byrd Head on them. I was kind of excited. I don't do much with figured wood now but I didn't want to limit my options and have to go retro fit one of these on it at a later time. I would just rather have it put on at the factory.

The sales guy said their straight cutters did a fantastic job and the Byrd head wasn't worth the money unless I did a lot of figured wood.

I brought up that I also thought it would be nice that if I chipped a insert I could just turn it and I had 4 sides that I could use, and he said that wasn't really true. At the Angle the inserts sit at that you actually wear 2 sides at once so you can really only turn them once. One side fully and the other side maybe a quarter to a third of that side and the corner are worn.

This is the first time I had herd this and thought I would ask you guys here if you had herd of this.

Ray DuBose
Memphis, TN

[glenn bradley]

Hmm, he may be referring to the fact that Byrd cutters are set to a shear angle so that they lead with a corner. I'm not sure how much that would effect that edge when it is rotated to the position where that leading edge becomes the trailing edge (counter-clockwise rotation of the insert).

Other spiral cutters place their cutting edge perpendicular to the rotation axis. Does this mean they are wearing both corners and therefor 3 side at once? Not likely a significant issue when compared to the longevity over HSS knives. I only have carbide inserts on my jointer but will NOT upgrade my planer to any brand without having a spiral head.

The performance on BE maple is outstanding compared to even brand new knives in my experience. Others will have different experiences to report I'm sure. This sometimes becomes a Ford/Chevy, Tastes Great/Less Filling argument but, for my nickel; spirals are the only way to go.

[Myk Rian]

You can use all 4 edges of the cutters. I don't think the salesman knows what he's talking about. If you get it, and before you use it, recheck the torque on the cutter screws @ 55 inch/lbs.

[Anthony Whitesell]

At first I was going to agree, but I looked closer at the shear angle Byrd Head and how the inserts are mounted. Because the "point" leads you are using two edges at once, but you are not using all of both edges at once. So I still think you could use all four corners before replacing the insert.

[Jim Andrew]

That salesman must not be a woodworker. My experience is the Byrd heads save lots of wood that would be ruined by straight cutters. By not jerking pieces out around knots etc. I do think it is hard to use all 4 edges, as carbide wears so well. I have broken a few, loose knots are hard on them when they come out and rattle around. Have taken to using the thick super glue to glue knots in that have a gap, saves the knot and the planer.

[C Scott McDonald]

For me it isn't the cut quality but the noise issue. I have run a board across a 12" stright knifes and 12"HH and hands down the winner is the helical. I Have one on my jointer and besides the Hammer Winner I just got it is the best money I have spent in Woodworking in a long time.

Scott

[J.R. Rutter]

At the Angle the inserts sit at that you actually wear 2 sides at once so you can really only turn them once. One side fully and the other side maybe a quarter to a third of that side and the corner are worn.

Ha ha! That's funny, and completely untrue! Did he say that with a straight face?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Out of curiosity, how much do they want for the byrd upgrade?

[C Scott McDonald]

$800 dollars and they put it on for you if you order the a3 31 new.

[Mark Carlson]

Does anyone know how much does the byrd head costs by itself?

~mark

[Ray DuBose]

Called Byrd this morning about just purchasing a head for it and they quoted $920 so seems a little cheaper getting it on the front end and having them install it.

[Charles B Thomas]

I am ready to purchase a Hammer A3-31 and am unsure if I should plop down the extra 800 for the Byrd head. I've heard it's the cat's meow. Is there a down side to them? (other than more $$ up-front). The upfront cost is not as important as the joy of use and the cost of consumbables. Is the finish as smooth and glassy as sharp straight Hammer knives? I've heard it is and I've heard Byrd cutters leave a scalloped edge (tracks down the length of the board) and everything has to be sanded smooth. Is that true? Sound is an issue for me, so I like that they are quiter and have a lower pitch. Is the cost of 3 of the the cobalt knives on par with the cost of carbide shelix cutters?

[joe milana]

When I purchased byrd heads for my jointer & planer I was blown away by the performance. Actually, I didn't think the planer was cutting the first time I passed a board through it. Deciding to rotate the cutters for the first time was a difficult decision for me. Excessive vibration while face jointing on the jointer helped me make the final decision. After rotating the cutters, I expected to get that "blown away" feeling again, but it just wasn't there. I got a slight improvement, but it just didn't seem to cut like it did when new. I guess I won't know until I've used up all four sides & start with a new set. Hopefully that will be soon. Maybe I'm just spoiled & need to go use someone's straight knife jointer & planer to put things into perspective.

[Myk Rian]

The sales guy said their straight cutters did a fantastic job and the Byrd head wasn't worth the money unless I did a lot of figured wood.
Bull hockey pucks.

You can use all 4 edges.

[Van Huskey]

I am ready to purchase a Hammer A3-31 and am unsure if I should plop down the extra 800 for the Byrd head. I've heard it's the cat's meow. Is there a down side to them? (other than more $$ up-front). The upfront cost is not as important as the joy of use and the cost of consumbables. Is the finish as smooth and glassy as sharp straight Hammer knives? I've heard it is and I've heard Byrd cutters leave a scalloped edge (tracks down the length of the board) and everything has to be sanded smooth. Is that true? Sound is an issue for me, so I like that they are quiter and have a lower pitch. Is the cost of 3 of the the cobalt knives on par with the cost of carbide shelix cutters?


First, though it is a old thread I will add they charge $800 for the A3-41 as well, it is an even better deal.

The more wood you put through it the more likely you are to save money, you won't save a ton of time since the Hammer uses quick change disposable blades. A Byrd head will NOT match the finish in straight grain wood compared to a fresh set of straight knives since tungsten carbide can not be sharpened as keen as tooling steels, but the "new" is knocked off of steel knives pretty quickly. If a Byrd head is leaving serious tracks you need to remove the bits, clean underneath and retorque them, it seems to happen with a few of them from the factory. Less so now compared to the past but that observation is just based on the number of posts about it. All insert heads will leave tracks you can see with a strong striking light but that is a non-issue since no planer gives you finish ready wood. Most that have a Byrd head will recommend it, many with straight knives are completely happy with them. My call get the insert head.

[David Kumm]

I will add one additional consideration. I'm a fan of insert heads and have straight knives, ESTA, Byrd and ITCH on various machines. Even though the carbide heads require less changing, I find that when I have a gnarly rough board that is kind of grimy I run it through the straight knives. Rather change them than nick the inserts but that is likely because I've more experience with the knives. If you nick knives often the ESTA has some advantages. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

As I have said in other threads, all straight knives are not created equal. I do not know exactly what Felders knife system is but it sounds as if it is similar to the Tersa and Terminus systems. These are not to be confused with the chunks of steel held in by jibs in a conventional head. The Tersa's do a better job than the Byrd head in all kinds of wood judging by my own machines, and are actually quieter. If the Felder system is the equal of the Tersa I would not discount it out of hand.

My next Jointer will have a Tersa head, not because it is cheaper, its not, but because I like the cut better. I have a Powermatic jointer with a Byrd head that I use on site and although it is a nice jointer and it does the job, in the shop I would prefer a Tersa.

Larry

[Van Huskey]

Larry has hit on something that is very important and just as all straight knives are not created equal not all carbide insert heads are created equal either.

With straight knives a big consideration is the size of the cutter head. The larger the cutter heads diameter the better angle of approach the knives have, sorta a shaper vs router tooling kinda thing. The lower end machines tend to have smaller diameters, old iron and higher end euro machines tend to have larger. The number of knives is also an issue, all other things equal and a 4 knife head will give a cleaner cut than a 3 knife head. To add to this the high quality disposable knife systems offer a level of precision in setting the knives that allows all the knive to be at EXACTLY the same height, try as one may this is extremely difficult to achieve even with quite a bit of effort and skill with standard heads, the only equal to that is an old iron machine with a grinder unit that has a jointing feature, never done it but it is not for the faint of heart, but it works. Properly done we are talking SHAVINGS.

The other issue that isn't talked about often is all carbide insert heads are not created equal either. I can't speak to the ITCH or Quiet one as I have never used them. I have however used a number of the carbide heads found on modern machines. First, there are straight and shear type heads and I agree with FWW that shear heads have an advantage in cut quality. Second, lets look at 12" carbide insert heads, the Grizzly 12" J/P has 32 bits, the Byrd head used in the A3-31 has about 60 bits (don't quote me but there is a significant number advantage), almost to a machine the higher population of bits means a higher quality of finish. For a contrast in the Grizzly line alone their top range (5200 dollar) 12" jointer has 84 inserts, over two and a half times what their 12" J/P has.

The next issue is cutter head speed, all other things equal a higher speed provides a better finish.

The final issue that I can think of off the top of my head is direct drive versus belt drive, a direct drive machine has an advantage in vibration but this is probably the least important of these factors.

In the end it is my humble opinion that for a given machine (thus speed, diameter and drive system equal) a shear type carbide insert head can eclipse the long term, but not initial (due to tooling steels ability to be initially sharper) quality of cut provided by a straight knife head WHEN the bit population gets to some magic number. The magic number is pure theory for me and I have no idea how to calculate it and once calculated there may not be a off the shelf head that meets this requirement. One could always get a custom made head but...more $$$. My experience has been with the "entry level" machines the insert heads almost always give better results along with the other pros an insert head brings to the table, the farther one goes up the ladder of quality the smaller the advantage is with the off the shelf insert cutter heads. I have a decent amount of A3 + Byrd experience and a small amount of time with the stock A3 knives and I would pick the Byrd because for me the savings along with the other benefits would make up for the $800 outlay and I feel it gives a better cut in most woods and significant advantage in nasty grain. The difference is not as large as with say the average Grizzly machines where even their low population heads still give a significant advantage over straight knives in the same machine.

I will admit my bias in that I prefer to pay up front and not feed the tooling monster, carbide doesn't fix this problem but it delays the pain a LONG time for a hobbyist.

[joe milana]

Lots to ponder Van. I looked at a huge old Martin jointer recently that had I believe a 5" dia. straight knife cutter head. When I asked about the performance of the straight knife cutterhead, the owner just grinned & said "with this machine, you don't need carbide". I wasn't sure if he was just strokin' his own ego, or what.

[David Kumm]

Van, as always great info. The Felder system is the Esta and while it isn't a Tersa, I'm always happy with the cut. The guys with big old 5" cutterheads on jointers seem to prefer the regular 1/8" knives to the Esta but with the smaller heads on newer machines or particularly planers it seems to be well liked. The ITCH was one of if not the first carbide insert head. Whitney made one too. Shear cut but down side is it needs to be sharpened in place so don't nick a knife. The PM quiet head is- I believe- just several staggered shorter knives in a straight knife arrangement and not very well loved. A PM quiet head is a great candidate for a Byrd as they often sell cheap. I'm in the camp of preferring the old 5" heads on jointers and don't think the Martin guy was blowing smoke. They are the real deal. Dave