Incra LS Super System

[Barry Lyndon]

I am talking myself into getting the 25" Incra LS Super System (http://incra.com/product_rtf_lspsuper.htm) and was wondering if anyone here had any experience with it. I've been looking for a good dovetail and box joint jig and kinda fell in love with this things versatility. That being said...I fell in love with it by watching with promo videos so I may be brain washed. I know Incra makes awesome quality products but I'd probably be getting the Incra router table as well so it will be a $800ish investment so I thought I'd see what you guys thought about the system.

Here is the video (part 1, 2, and 3) that made me fall in love with it by the way...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9B_HRUQHtY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R8_qa90CQ0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtTIKRjvgQo&feature=related

Let me know what you guys think!

[Steve Costa]

About 10 years ago I bought a Jointech system similar to the Incra system you are considering. Realizing things have gotten much better in 10 years I STRONGLY suggest you down load the manual and read it cover to cover before investing $800.

I made a couple things with my Jointech. Setup was difficult and required several test cuts to get things correct. For the last 8 years I have used it as a fence on my router table router.

[Dan Bowman]

I've had the LS system on my router table for 2.5 years and it is relegated to being used as a fence. Dovetails are much easier on my Akeda jig, and box joints are easier and cleaner on the table saw.

[Ruhi Arslan]

I have a TS-LS combo system ( http://incra.com/product_tscombo.htm ) as seen on the link. Once I set it up right, it made it much more easier and accurate for me for both the router and the table saw. I cannot say it is easy to set it up "right" though. Installing on the table may interfere with the tilt of the blade if your TS has a motor hanging out on the back like mine does and also the saw guard.

[Paul Johnstone]

I have the jointech system too.. It's an awesome router fence.

I have not tried making dovetail joints on it, but from what I have read, it works best on small projects, like the pretty boxes.. I have read that it's not very practical for medium to large drawers.

Another downside is that I bought a version that had 16 or 18 inches of fence travel. That uses a lot of space on the router table. If I were to buy again, I would only get 12 inches of travel.

My setup wasn't nearly $800, although I don't remember what I paid for it.
Having microadjust on the fence is really nice though.
Would I buy it again? Maybe I would buy the 12" version. It is a lot nicer than the homemade router table fence I did have.

[Dave Hasson]

Barry, I have that same fence on my router table. Everytime I use it, I find something else I like. It is very repeatable. I really like the fact that if a routed area doesn't fit, I can micro adjust until it's exactly what I need. Need a groove 1/2" from the edge of the bit? Push fence to edge of bit, slide scale to 0, mode fence to 1/2". I have only made some box joints using 1/2" plywood and they came out perfect (at least to me). The trick to clean box joints is having a backing board, but they go over everything in the great DVD that came with the set:

http://www.pbase.com/blucrsr/image/123148719.jpg

I bought mine at the same time I purchased the table top and leg set. It was a "splurge", but I don't regret the purchase at all. Let me know if you have more specific questions and I'll try to answer them.

http://www.pbase.com/blucrsr/image/124381372.jpg

[Barry Lyndon]

Dave, thanks for the awesome info and pictures! It looks like you have the exact same setup that I am considering. I was getting a little bummed because the tone of this thread was seeming a little negative toward the Incra system and I really didn't want that result but it sounds like you love it and i have read quite a few other reviews of people who also love it and think it's the best thing to happen to wood working since the table saw.

Anyway, there are a couple negative things I have read fairly consistently about the system and I am hoping you can comment on them. First, I have read that making half blind dovetails requires more post-work than traditional dovetail jigs because you have to chisel and stuff to round and clean everything up. I don't have experience with dovetails as this will be my first jig but I was wondering if you could explain this a bit. Second, I have read from a few sources (Paul in this thread being one of them) that this system is great for smaller boxes and projects but wouldn't work well for medium or larger boxes or projects. One source said it was because of the "cross feed is cheesy and that’s what you will be using" meaning I guess that the cross feed isn't of great quality making holding the stock upright difficult. Any comment on this or on whether or not building larger projects is doable on this system?

Thanks for the info from everyone else too. Because of everyone's input I have downloaded the manual and also seeked out many other reviews to get a better understanding of what this system is capable of. You all helped ground me a bit :)

[Dave Hasson]

Barry, I haven't made any dovetails, but I don't remember the DVD showing the use of a chisel on the half blind variety. I'll see if I can grab some waste pieces and make a few of them. My drawer sides were about 6" tall and the longest sides were 20". So, I'm not sure if this counts as a medium project. I don't think this would work well for a large side panel for a hope chest or something, but I don't have that much ceiling height anyway. I thought the "cross feed" mechanism worked really well. You lock it to the fence, stand your 2 equal sides upright with a backer board, clamp them to the slide, unlock the slide and push. There are screws on the slide to take out any slop. I will suggest making sure you have good router bits. The cheap set I was using were not sizer properly and my first box joint was really tight. However, the instructions tell you how to adjust the fit using the micro adjust.

You wouldn't happen to be anywhere near Chicago, would you? I'd offer a free demo if you're nearby.

[Ruhi Arslan]

Half blind dovetails require one extra cut but not the chisel work. The depth of the cut is suggested on the template for the bit you choose to use so no guess work there. Also, once you find the center of the board, the rest is adjusting tightness by setting the bit height right with the test pieces with the exact widths.

[Will Blick]

Barry, this is a tough question to answer.... I own two Incra systems, one dedicated router and the TS LS as well, which also has a router table... I also own the Leigh Super jig. Incra products are well made, well designed, and clearly their claim to fame, is being very versatile....the question is, at what price, both in terms of money and time / ease of use are you willing to pay.

IMO, the best method for tool selection is to work backwards from the products you want to produce. So I will approach it from that position...

If I only wanted to make dovetails for drawers, boxes, etc. I would buy the Leigh or Akeda jig....or you could spend less for jigs with a bit less versatility. The value of these jigs is, they are designed for a single purpose, and perform that single task very efficiently. With Leighs new e-bushing, which can account for blade wear down to 1/20k of an inch, its amazing how tight you can make joints with such a simple system. The real benefit over the incra is, once you learn it, you simply push the router around the jigs pattern... a no-brainer. With Incra, you must consantly re set the fence for each cut... I find that annoying, time consuming and there is lots of potential for human error.

the only advantage I can see with the Incra here is some of the ultra fancy joints, called double inlays...(I think). The other advantage is the size of the joinery...it can extend as far as the system size you buy, IIRC up to 27", but many dovetail jigs can go this far as well, and many dovetial jigs have infintine spacing settings, so you can space the dovetails as you please...this varies between jigs...the Akeda is semi flexible in this regard with 1/8" stops throughout its range.

So outside of joinery, the Incra wins, cause a dovetail jig is not a router fence :-) This is where the Incras price becomes more tolerable, as it serves both as superb router fence for edge work, panel raising, etc, as well as an excellent (albeit slow and tedious) joinery system. The fence itself, with its 1/1000" positioner, is quite impressive and I have found it very useful, however, there is other ways to accomplish this today with dial indicators, DRO's, and finely threaded screws, which can be put on lower costs fences...but surely not as elegant. But remember, the fence is just one of the movements you need to be accurate on, the router height adjustment is the other..and that movement is often equally important. So I would suggest if you are going for this level of precision, you also go with a digital readout with a highly precisioned lift, which Incra sells, which is re lableled from Woodpecker.

If you need a TS fence and a router fence, obviously you can amortize the cost of the Incra over both tools, this assumes you have a router table on a TS.... a very frugal means to have a great fence for both.

Anyway, try to ascertain what you want to make first, and consider how valuable your time is, and whether an incra is suitable for dovetails. I think the general concensus is, most people resort to a dovetail jigs for basic dovetail making. But if a single system is what you desire, so you can do edge work, panel raising and dovetails, the Incra is the ticket, even though the joinery is more time consuming to produce the joinery...

[Raymond Fries]

I have the 17" version and have been very pleased with the results. I got my base from Woodpeckers though. I bought an extra shelf for the bottom for extra storage which helped.

It is very repeatable and locks into place at the specified locations.

Good luck with your decision...

[Bob Potter]

Hello Barry
I have two Incra systems. The first one was the twin linear which they don't make any more. Later when the came out with the L.S I bought the 25" one. Planning on getting the rails and base mount to put it on the table saw which I did later. So I now have a router on the left side of the table saw plus the other one on the router table.
They are every thing they day they are. You can do things with them that you can't do with an ordinary router fence/table saw fence. You can go back to the same fence position time after time and it will be right on.
The only time you have to use a chisel is with though dove tails and it's not a big deal.
In the time I have owned these two system I have made all kinds of double dove tails, box joints and such. They can be touchy because with the double dove tails you have a 3/32 liner that can break if you take to big of cuts. But you can make some very nice looking boxes or what ever.
Making big drawer boxes can be touchy because your balancing a long board up right. So smaller pcs. are much easier
As for as making a lot of big dove tails a regular dove tail jig would be in most cases easier.
You can set the table saw fence to cut exact cuts time after time. They may not be for every one but I think once you used one you would for in love with it.
Hope this helps, Bob
P.S.They do cost a lot of money but the things you can do is so much more the the regular router fence or table saw fence.

[Barry Lyndon]

Thanks again for your input everyone! It sounds like quite a few people have had positive experiences with this system and has good things to say. After reading everyone's input and reading some more reviews I went ahead and bit the bullet and ordered the table and the 25" system along with other table accessories (about $900, eek!) I got excited and overnighted everything so I'll have it tomorrow. I'm looking forward to makin' some sweet boxes!

Thanks again to everyone who contributed. I appreciated all the negatives and positives I read from everyone.

Dave, I am actually *kinda* close to Chicago (in Kansas City) but I guess at this point I'll just be giving myself the live demo :)

[glenn bradley]

I was getting a little bummed because the tone of this thread was seeming a little negative toward the Incra system and I really didn't want that result

That is not a reason to get bummed; that is reason for a sanity check. I too have bought items that seemed like they would meet my needs only to find out that someone who demonstrates them in very specific ways can make them really sing. me at home . . . not so much. It is the honest postings of folks who have spent hard earned money and got a result somewhat less than anticipated and are willing to share that fact that really adds value to this forum.

All that being said, there were also positive reviews. This shows how different we all are and how different the experiences of two folks can be when commenting on the same product. I have tools and jigs that I have great success with but have read of others having problems and vice versa.

The moral of the story is; don't get emotionally attached to something that you don't even own yet. Me? I can talk myself into anything. I am the king of rationalization. It is just this personality trait that makes me spend extra time when analyzing a purchase; to protect myself from myself. You are on the right track; talk to folks who actually own and use the item. Promo videos are just that; promotional. They play down the inconveniences and play up the sparkly-cool things.

Shop thoroughly and have fun ;-)

[Will Blick]

Glen, well stated....
It seems us tool hogs all have the rationalization gene....

What I find amusing about ww vs. other hobbies is... no matter what type of ww task you want to accomplish, there seems to be 5 ways to accomplish the same task. This is the result of the field of ww being so mature vs. most any other hobby. All these viable and interesting options are not healthy for us rationalizers.... :-)

[Louie Ballis]

Barry ,

I find myself in the similar boat as you in that I am gettting ready to order the incra system 2.

But now that you've ordered it and stand to recieve it in a short time ; I look forward to a review of it from you.


Best


Louie

[Paul Johnstone]

My comment about large dovetail pieces... take this with a grain of salt, because I haven't actually tried it :D

You are going to use the "coping jig" (for lack of better term) to hold the piece of wood perpendicular to the table and the fence. It's a lot easier to do that on smaller pieces than it is on larger pieces. That was the comment. I suppose it can be done, I have just read it is much more difficult..

Like I said, it's an awesome fence. I have considered rigging up a digital scale to it (much like the Woodrat people do).. It would be nice to zoom in digitally. It would seem to be great add on for dovetails, because then you just have to dial in an additional 3/4" or whatever instead of trying to line up the marks on the templates.

[Mark Carlson]

I have an Incra LS 17in on my router table. I would buy it again in a heartbeat. I love the adjustment capabilities. I 2nd the opinion that its good for dovetailing small boxes but not great for large case work or drawers. I use a keller and an akeda for large projects. I do use it for sliding dovetails but not for through or half blind dovetails. I just never took to it for regular dovetails all though I have all the templates and bits. I also have the wonder fence which because I thought having a split fence that I could offset would be usefull. I rarely use that feature it ever and I dust collect from below. The wonder fence is sitting in a drawer filled with Incra stuff.

The green thing in the picture is a jig that slides along the fence. I'm about to make a sliding dovetail (male) in a piece of popular. The fence is also attached to the steel table with those 4 magnets. It does not move.

~mark

[Will Blick]

>It would seem to be great add on for dovetails, because then you just have to dial in an additional 3/4" or whatever instead of trying to line up the marks on the templates.


I thought of a dial indicator in a miter track, with a longer than normal throw, say 1.5 - 2".... accurate to better than .0005" and you only have to move it a few times.... but I just bought a TS Wixey, so I can track the Incras position, not sure how it will work, but will soon find out after I set it up...

[glenn bradley]

Woodpecker has the Super System on sale with the Online Coupon Code LS20 for $20 off till July 29, 2010.