Used Centauro Bandsaw ?

[ian maybury]

Hi guys, while not a regular poster i've been impressed at the level of big bandsaw expertise here - so here goes in the hope that it will be possible to tap some of this.

I've a Scheppach Basato 5-4 bandsaw which starts to struggle once i get past about 5 in of resaw depth, and there's a number of Italian Centauro bandsaws (same factory as Minimax and SCM i think - lots of Centauros were sold here as the importer is very active) for sale within reach of me (it's hard times here in Ireland), so i'm thinking of buying one - preferably a CO 600 or 700. (their heavy duty line)

My objective is to be able to comfortably and reliably resaw/rip 12 in plus in hardwood - for drawer fronts, drawer bottoms, door panels, ripping heavy timber etc. Hopefully it'll also curve cut with a 1/4 in or smaller blade - space limitations mean keeping on a second saw would be difficult.

The 'comfortably and reliably' bit is maybe the million dollar question - once set up, the technique sorted and fitted with the right blade the saw needs to stay in adjustment, and fairly quickly peel off heavy cuts like this with a decent finish, and no unexpected barreling or wandering.

I've looked at one (a CO 600) which has brought up a few questions, and am going to see a CO 700 next week:

1. Can these saws deliver this sort of performance, or should i be thinking more of a dedicated resaw, or one of the recent bandsaw resaws? http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-plus-hb600a-re-saw-bandsaw-prod642379/ Cost and space are the big issues here.

2. At what point(s) do these big bandsaws run out of capability for resawing?

3. Do they run fine 1/4 and less blades for curve cutting without problems?

4. The saw is a 2.2kW 3 phase model, and was made in 2000. It's hard to tell what wear it has. How do they wear, what fails and is there anything to look for?

5. Can these saws be used to rip with a power feeder?

6. There's a factory fitted Carter (series 0? - the side guides are solid, and the thrust guide a disc type) upper guide and a very crude lower blade guide fitted on the 600 - the latter like a block of wood held in a bracket. It looks like it needs a proper lower guide fitted, and maybe the upper one refurbished. Is there a recognised 'best aftermarket route to follow, or is this needed?

7. Is it normal that the heavy vertical bar carrying the the upper blade guide is a little sloppy in its guides when freed to adjust the height, or might this indicate wear? i.e Before it's locked?

8. My supply is 230V/50Hz. Is there a recognised or even feasible route to single phase operation of these saws, and are there pros and cons? The 415V 3phase motor has no visible plate on it, so i can't tell if its dual voltage. i.e. can be set to run on 230V 3phase output from an inverter. A motor swap might be an option, but might there be issues to do with braking, wiring switches etc?

9. The saw is not (on a casual test) cutting straight right now, it's barreling and drifting badly to the right. The blade looks OK and is running true, but i wasn't able to carefully check it and may have been a little slack. My sense is that it's probably a set up issue, but does it signal anything alse going on to you guys?

Thank you,

ian

[Jamie Buxton]

Here's a few answers...


1. Can these saws deliver this sort of performance, or should i be thinking more of a dedicated resaw, or one of the recent bandsaw resaws? http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-plus-hb600a-re-saw-bandsaw-prod642379/ Cost and space are the big issues here.

I have a first cousin to the saws you're considering - a Laguna HD16 -- that is 400 mm. It was made by ACM, a few miles from Centuaro. The Italian saws are quite similar. Mine resaws quite well. The resaw capacity is 12". I do use a carbide-tipped blade, which is a big big improvement over convetional steel blades.

2. At what point(s) do these big bandsaws run out of capability for resawing?

3. Do they run fine 1/4 and less blades for curve cutting without problems?

Mine can run a 1/4" blade, although I don't do a lot of it. I've seen folks who put cool-block type guides on big saws to cut fine curves. In particular, I've seen guys who basically clamp a block of hardwood between the Euro-guides, put a kerf in it, and rest the back of the fine blade in the kerf. Seems to work well.

4. The saw is a 2.2kW 3 phase model, and was made in 2000. It's hard to tell what wear it has. How do they wear, what fails and is there anything to look for?

5. Can these saws be used to rip with a power feeder?


6. There's a factory fitted Carter (series 0? - the side guides are solid, and the thrust guide a disc type) upper guide and a very crude lower blade guide fitted on the 600 - the latter like a block of wood held in a bracket. It looks like it needs a proper lower guide fitted, and maybe the upper one refurbished. Is there a recognised 'best aftermarket route to follow, or is this needed?

You can get guides like the original guides, or ball-bearing guides, or even ceramic guides. I don't think there is concensus about the best route.

7. Is it normal that the heavy vertical bar carrying the the upper blade guide is a little sloppy in its guides when freed to adjust the height, or might this indicate wear? i.e Before it's locked?

Before it is locked down, slop doesn't matter.

8. My supply is 230V/50Hz. Is there a recognised or even feasible route to single phase operation of these saws, and are there pros and cons? The 415V 3phase motor has no visible plate on it, so i can't tell if its dual voltage. i.e. can be set to run on 230V 3phase output from an inverter. A motor swap might be an option, but might there be issues to do with braking, wiring switches etc?

Ah, 3-phase. This can be a big issue for you. In the US, it is common to employ inverters that produce three-phase 208 volts from single-phase 230 volts. I presume inverters like that, but suited to European voltages, are available in Europe. There are also guys who just put a single-phase motor in the saw.

9. The saw is not (on a casual test) cutting straight right now, it's barreling and drifting badly to the right. The blade looks OK and is running true, but i wasn't able to carefully check it and may have been a little slack. My sense is that it's probably a set up issue, but does it signal anything alse going on to you guys?

It is probably a worn blade, although it could be that not-quite-kosher guide set. In all my years of using bandsaws, my only reliable way of telling that a blade is worn is that the thing doesn't cut right. Eyeballing it doesn't tell me anything. Feeling it doesn't tell me anything. Behavior is the only gauge.

[Van Huskey]

1. Can these saws deliver this sort of performance, or should i be thinking more of a dedicated resaw, or one of the recent bandsaw resaws? http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-plus-hb600a-re-saw-bandsaw-prod642379/ Cost and space are the big issues here.

Keep in mind vertical resaw bandsaws are a one trick pony due to blade size restrictions, if you want to do ANYTHING else they are not a good choice, well short of ripping which I rarely do on a BS. The saws you are looking at will handle what you are asking of them.


2. At what point(s) do these big bandsaws run out of capability for resawing?

The biggest factor after proper blade selection will be horsepower. I tend to like over-powered saws and consider 3 hp per 12" of resaw to be perfect and works well with a power feeder. I think 2.2kw = ~3hp so that is plenty for 12" of resaw. You can resaw fine with less than 3hp per 12" but with that amount you will likely never feel short of power.

3. Do they run fine 1/4 and less blades for curve cutting without problems?

Most big Italian saws handle 1/4" blades just fine, as you go below that sometimes they are harder to track properly. If you use 1/8" blades a lot it would be nice to have a small (14") saw for curves etc. In the US there are lots of inexpensive cast 14" bandsaws both new and used, I don't know about Ireland.

4. The saw is a 2.2kW 3 phase model, and was made in 2000. It's hard to tell what wear it has. How do they wear, what fails and is there anything to look for?

I am not a "motor" guy, I just make my determination of motor wear from the wear on the rest of the saw. This may or may not be an issue but check to see if the motor is Italian, the Italian motors supplied on many Italian built bandsaws tend to run hot and generally aren't that great, as a result a couple of the US importers spec different motors. This may also be a non-issue for you since my only experience with these are motors imported to the US for 60hz single phase, the motors supplied for Euro electrical service may not have any of these issues.

5. Can these saws be used to rip with a power feeder?

Usually, I see power feeders on BS for resawing, depending on the stock there may not be a place to mount the PF that would not interfere with the work. As for resawing PF work fine again as long as they either go slow enough and you have enough HP per resaw inch. Most of the "hobby" level power feeders work fine with 3hp saws up to 12-14 inches of resaw.

6. There's a factory fitted Carter (series 0? - the side guides are solid, and the thrust guide a disc type) upper guide and a very crude lower blade guide fitted on the 600 - the latter like a block of wood held in a bracket. It looks like it needs a proper lower guide fitted, and maybe the upper one refurbished. Is there a recognised 'best aftermarket route to follow, or is this needed?

My favorite guides are the Laguna Ceramic guides. Guides tend to be a very personal thing but there are plenty of aftermarket options.

7. Is it normal that the heavy vertical bar carrying the the upper blade guide is a little sloppy in its guides when freed to adjust the height, or might this indicate wear? i.e Before it's locked?

Slop only matters when it is locked.

8. My supply is 230V/50Hz. Is there a recognised or even feasible route to single phase operation of these saws, and are there pros and cons? The 415V 3phase motor has no visible plate on it, so i can't tell if its dual voltage. i.e. can be set to run on 230V 3phase output from an inverter. A motor swap might be an option, but might there be issues to do with braking, wiring switches etc?

That is going to depend on the price and availability of parts to do the conversion there.

9. The saw is not (on a casual test) cutting straight right now, it's barreling and drifting badly to the right. The blade looks OK and is running true, but i wasn't able to carefully check it and may have been a little slack. My sense is that it's probably a set up issue, but does it signal anything alse going on to you guys?

Basic guess is that it is the blade, probably just dull.

[johnny means]

I have a Centauro 600 and I love it. It will handle any thing I throw at it except for the tiniest of blades. Mine is 3 ph 4hp and has handled 12" plywood laminations with no problems. It's a real beast' IMO you can't go wrong with one at a fair price.

[ian maybury]

Thank you very much for your careful replies guys, mucho helpful and appreciated. It sounds from what you say that the Centauro CO 600 and especially 700 are in the ballpark - solid machines, and capable of handling the deep ripping or re-sawing I need very well with or without a power feeder, but at the same time of running smaller blades with some set up.

That bandsaw resaw i linked at Axminster in the UK is possibly something a little new - in that it goes up to close to 2in blade width, and down to 1/4in. It's made in Taiwan.

The CO 700 will handle a 40mm (1 1/2 in +) plus blade with the advantage of an 18in cutting height - maybe up to about 13 in re-saw depth. Will see what one looks like next week - it's possibly the most cost effective route for me as i think i know of a used one at good money.

Bandsaw HP is an interesting question Van - you see big differences for nominally similar size machines. I wonder if blade speed isn't the factor that the HP bumps up? Maybe lots of HP on it's own doesn't change much, but maybe a maker with lots of HP will gear up the blade speed accordingly.

Think i'll call Carter next week to see what they have to say about guides. Hopefully they can advise - but it sounds like it won't be a show stopper.

Maybe another question. Carbide tip blades seem to be the business for resawing. (Jamie) What are the big considerations in using them compared to a carbon or bimetal? Cost/grades/quality/tooth selection/guides/life/wheel size/anything else?

Thanks again,

Ian

[Jamie Buxton]

...(Jamie) What are the big considerations in using them compared to a carbon or bimetal? Cost/grades/quality/tooth selection/guides/life/wheel size/anything else?
...

For resaw, carbide blades have two big advantages over conventional steel blades: cut quality, and total-life cost.

Steel bandsaw blades have teeth with set. The set makes the kerf wider than the blade stock, which allows the sawdust to clear out. However, the set teeth give the cut a rather rough surface. Carbide bandsaw blades are built like carbide tablesaw blades: carbide teeth brazed on to thinner saw bodies. This still gives a place for the sawdust to go, but gives a much cleaner cut face. I regularly cut veneer with my bandsaw, and just use it as-is -- no thickness planing or anything.

Carbide blades have a high purchase price, but stay sharp much much longer than steel blades. The result is a longer cost per hour of operation.

My current favorite is the Lenox Woodmaster CT. Other folks on this board prefer the Lennox Trimaster. I used to use the Laguna Resaw King, but have found that the Woodmaster CT has a much lower lifetime cost. You can use SMC's Search function to find my thread on that comparison, and many other discussions of this issue.

[Rick Fisher]

Hello..

I have an old SCM -600 which I restored .. It was also missing the lower guide set-up.. I simply took the guide support rod from the upper guides to a machine shop and had one made. I think I paid $20.00

Mine came with a 3 Phase x 2.2kw motor as well.. I swapped it to a 5hp Baldor.. single phase.. if I where to do it again, I would just go 3hp .. The heavy cast iron wheels give the saw a pile of torque..

When I restored mine, I bought new guides from Carter. They where expensive, but I like them. Pretty much identical to the ones that where original.

Resaw height is about 12-1/2" .. I have resawn 12" maple, it cuts the same as 8" maple.. Its irrelevant to the saw, so the limitation is height..

Its a fine saw. I love mine. I have a tough time running small blades, I have a 3/8" that I cant seem to get to track, I am also terribly impatient.. so .. I probably didn't try hard enough.


This is mine, just before the fence was installed.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/SCM%20Bandsaw/P1010472.jpg

[ian maybury]

Lots of info after a quick search on Lenox and other blades! Goldmine! Thanks again.

That's a nice looking job Rick.

One point on power options that's come up in my enquiries over here. I've been told by one supplier that the larger three phase saws may need the full 415V 3 phase supply or whatever to run the switchgear and controls - and maybe braking too. (?) To beware of static converters and some inverters which may leave them low on voltage. That the best solution (but expensive here) seems to be a good quality electronically controlled rotary converter.

While probably the least costly option (presuming no issues with shaft sizes and or mounting flange formats) I'm guessing the same issues could possibly arise if going to a single phase motor.

[Rye Crane]

Ian,

I have a mini max 24" /Centauro 600 bandsaw with the 24" resaw capacity. It has a 4.8hp S1 Italian motor and I recently was resawing
some 18" wide Wenge that was about 6' long. I pushed as hard as I
could and never bogged the motor down. I have never bogged the
devil down with any type of cut. I use a Lennox 1" trimaster carbide
band and it lasts quite a while before sharpening. Probably a year or so.
I have tried the Lennox CT woodmaster and the cut just isn't as nice and
smooth as the trimaster so I have stuck with them.

The Italian motors had a few posts some time back reporting running hot.

I have one of those laser temperture guages and after I got done with the wenge cut I checked and it was warm at 125 F. but it was also 85F
in the shop so it was ok to touch. It has never gotten hot. I think that was
either a run of bad luck on some one's part but I haven't heard of hot running Italian motors in quite a while. I have a Mini Max or SCM jointer planer it's a FS2 or 520mm wide (20.5") it has an 12 hp three phase Italian S1 motor and once by mistake I was planning some white oak that was about 16" wide and set the cut at max. I think 8mm and all I heard was lots of oak being gound off quickly, cut quality was good and it never slowed or bogged down at all.

I have a saw shaper it's a MiniMax ST5 Elite S with 2, 6.6 3 phase Italian
S1 motors. I did stop the saw once with a chip lodged between the blade and the insert. I was able to hit the emergency stop button without seeing any smoke. You know once the smoke it let out of a motor it will never run right again. Anyway I am very satisfied with the bandsaw
I am sure you will be also, the euro version of the Centauro 600 has roller bearing guides in their catalogue I have the euro flat guides.

One thing in setting up your bandsaw you want to eliminate all the vibration you can. Immediately change the drive belts, the OEM belts
are crappy and squeek and introduce unwanted vibration. I also polished the euro guides so they would work easier, the lennox blades are wonderful and there has never been any "drift" to compensate for, when they get dull it is just a little harder to push the wood through. It guide assembly is on a 1" dia. steel shaft with a rack and pinion gear set that is flawless. Very strong, once set it just works.

Good Luck,
Rye Crane
Pittsburg, Ca.

[ian maybury]

Thanks for sharing Rye.

These Italian bandsaws are hard to figure out - lots of spec levels and overlaps between makers.

I've been offered a Griggio as well as 2x Centauros since posting, possibly similar it seems to an ACM or Minimax. Only vague information so far, waiting for a call.

Have ruled out one of the Centauros as it's done 10 years in factory production of wooden fireplaces and is probably well worn....

ian

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. Got my Scheppach Basato 5-4 sold today, and got a good price - so game on.

So far there's a few used saw options, but all are the lighter medium duty (whatever that means) versions of ACM (Star 600), Grigio (SNA - not SNAC 600), Centauro (SP 600 - not CO 600) etc.

I'm guessing these are not the choice for deep re-sawing with a hard to tension 35 - 40mm wide carbide or stellite tipped blade.

An Agazzani has popped up, an N'RA 600. http://www.ney.co.uk/machines/new-products/sawing-sizing/bandsaws/agazzani-nra.htm Almost new, and the asking price is too high (though highly negotiable i suspect) - a bit more than what i can buy a new Felder FB600 for (also med duty).

I'm very tempted to make this guy an offer though. The saw seems like a cut above - a very heavy duty, precision machine. Albeit 3HP seems possibly a little low for re-saw (but as long as it will do it accurately i don't mind giving away a little speed), and I'm not sure it can handle finer say 1/4 in blades.

Is there a lighter duty Agazzani this could be? Thoughts anybody?

I mentioned Axminster in the UK as a source for well priced new saws. e.g. Axminster UK AP 6300HD3, or the more re-saw oriented HB 600A. http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-axminster-plus-ap6300hd3-bandsaw-prod780619/

These are a Taiwanese made take on the Italian stallions, Axminster claim higher quality spec. than the Italians. (?) They look good.

Has anybody got any experience of this or similar saws which I'm sure pop up in the US somewhere? (it's sold as Holzkraft in Germany so far as I can tell)

Plan B if the Agazzani guy won't take something reasonable is to lie low for a while.....

ian

PS Pardon all the Euro brands, I don't know how familiar they may be. Also - the Hammer N4400 seems a really good deal at the moment for a saw now with 4HP and a decent spec. (cast wheels etc It's a pity it's not a little bigger. (has 11 in vertical capacity) Looks like it's their version of the ACM Jolly 45...