Thompson lathe tools or Pro-PM? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Joshua Dinerstein

07-14-2010, 7:25 PM

Hi Guys,

I am looking to get some new tools. The bengamin's best that I have work pretty well but I would really like to get some of these newer powder metal or cryo metal tools.

A year ago I was talking to Doug Thompson in email about some of this tools and then my daughter was born and well things got totally away from me and I still haven't purchased anything new. I have a local friend that has a Pro-PM bowl gouge he got from wc and he loves it. I have been watching a sale on Pro-PM tools and they are basically the same prices and Doug's at the moment and come with handles. Making my own handles is really no big deal but with somewhat limited shop time with a 1 year old in the house having some just ready to use is kind of nice.

So it got me to thinking. I have heard people rave about Doug's tools. Which is a great recommendation. But how do the 2 types of tools compare? Are they basically going to be the same or is get Thompson's really a better way to go?

Anyone happen to have some of each and willing to make a comparison?

Thanks,
Joshua

Don Meyer

07-14-2010, 7:49 PM

I have not used any of the PRO PM tools but I can attest to the quality of Doug Thompson's tools. I have six of his bowl gouges and couldn't be happier with them. I have the Kelton tool holder and bought the different bushings for the tools and just switch them out as I need them so not having handles was not a problem for me.

Thom Sturgill

07-14-2010, 7:59 PM

Joshua, I have both but can't really compare them. The one Pro-PM I have, I left in a conventional grind and use it too differently. I will say that the handle felt too light to me. And that after I bought the first Thompson I then bought 4 more. I do also own some regular crown gouges that I use and like (Ellsworth gouge is one) and a bunch of Sorby spindle gouges.

Mike Minto

07-14-2010, 8:50 PM

Joshua, my first bowl gouge was a Crown PM (Ellsworth signature) - got it the day I bought my first lathe. It is my favorite, go-to tool. I think if I had only one tool to turn with, that would be it. I will also say that I have at least 8 Thompson's, and while I think they are excellent, and are almost exclusively the only tools I'll be buying in the future, my 5/8 Crown is my overall fav. Could be the size (don't have a Thompson 5/8 in a handle yet), but it keeps a very good edge for a long time, and is the easiest to handle tool I've had in my hand. Hope this helps - let us know what you do!

Gary Max

07-14-2010, 8:59 PM

I really like my Pro-PM but the best lathe tools in my shop are made by P&N.

Bernie Weishapl

07-14-2010, 9:01 PM

Joshua I have the Crown Pro-PM and several Thompson's. I find myself reaching for the Thompson's. I don't think I have used my Crown more than twice in the last few months.

John Keeton

07-14-2010, 9:21 PM

I have a few Thompsons, but no Pro-PM, so I can't compare. But, just as an observation, you guys sure do have a bunch of tools!!!! I just have one bowl gouge - I feel so inferior!:o:o

Allen Neighbors

07-14-2010, 9:39 PM

I have a Crown Pro PM 5/8 Bowl Gouge, and I have 3 of Doug's Gouges. I use the Crown 5/8 just about as much as I use the Thompson's. They have different grinds on them.
The Thompson's stay sharp a little longer, so there's less sharpening with them.

Joshua Dinerstein

07-14-2010, 10:01 PM

I have a few Thompsons, but no Pro-PM, so I can't compare. But, just as an observation, you guys sure do have a bunch of tools!!!! I just have one bowl gouge - I feel so inferior!:o:o

John,

The only bowl gouge I have is a Benjamin's Best. The other tools I use are all HF's HSS tools. I have heard people talk about how the only things missing from HF's HSS tools is the HSS. I have come to believe in that somewhat. They start out feeling quite sharp and cutting well but they seem to need quite a bit of sharpening. My buddy has a Pro-PM traditional grind bowl gouge and that tool is amazing. It is one that I got to use a little awhile back. I was amazed at how well it cut and how long it seemed to stay sharp.

The Bengamin's Best bowl gouge seems to hold it edge longer than the HF HSS but at the same time it isn't in the same caliber as that Pro-PM. I haven't had a chance to use a Thompson gouge. So I thought I would see given the similarity in prices which I should go with.

I would like 2 bowl gouges of different sizes, a 1/2 and a 3/8ths or a 1/4 inch, because I have been watching some Jimmy Clewes DVDs after seeing his demo in person at the Utah symposium and he uses 2. The 1/2 for roughing out and the 1/4" or perhaps a 3/8ths for doing much lighter finishing cuts.

It is a technique I see a value in and would really like to try. That's really all. Plus I am kind of nuts and like to spend money I guess... :)

Joshua

Ryan Baker

07-14-2010, 10:05 PM

The Pro-PM tools are nice, but I prefer my Thompsons. They hold an edge longer.

Roger Chandler

07-14-2010, 10:31 PM

I have a 1/2 " crown cryogenic bowl gouge, a 3/8 " Sorby, and a 1/4 " wood river from WC. The cryogenic is really good, and the sorby is good, as well as the woodriver.

I want to get a 5/8 thompson,with a u shaped flute. It is my understanding that the larger size adds to the hogging out process and makes it faster and smoother [less vibration, chatter I guess]

John K. - you may not have but one bowl gouge, but you do have a monster hollowing system on the way..... not too shabby, so you do have a gloat of sorts! By the way, how's the bookcase project coming along? Painted yet?

Post some pics when you can... might want to borrow an idea or two from you...:D

Jason Clark2

07-14-2010, 11:11 PM

My 1/2" Crown Pro-PM with a long fingernail grind on it is my goto gouge, I pick it up 90% of the time. I have 1 thompson gouge, a 1/2" V, I think I'd use it more if it was 5/8" but it would be tough to beat my Crown.

Jason

Joshua Dinerstein

07-15-2010, 12:48 AM

Something occurred to me tonight as I was reading the replies and thinking about the answers you all provided. And that was that I am not sure I asked the right question in the first place.

The real question isn't what tools do you like better. Tools can be reground to match person preference on bevel and nose angle and length of wings etc... Which is good news because it means that once you have a style you like you can continue to use it even after you have to replace a tool.

My question is all about "edge holding/sharpness over time". That is what I am, like so many of us are, really interested it. Reducing sharpening time to a minimum.

So it occurred to me only just now that I really ought to re-ask the question and see if anyone knows how they compare in this one area. I also sent an email to Doug to ask him directly. As I told him he clearly prefers his steel formulation or he wouldn't be using it. So it wasn't about defending the choice but was just did he know which would hold and edge better/longer.

I remember clearly something that Doug wrote about the sharpness of his tools and how even though they are so hard on the scale so many find the tools sharper than anything they have ever used. I wasn't going to mention this part at all and then realized that if you can't get a tool truly sharp to start with then it doesn't matter how long it stays in the condition that you can get it into. :) I am pretty sure from what has been said here that it is very possible to get a Pro-PM truly sharp just as it is with a Thompson gouge.

So it is edge holding that is really what I am most concerned with. I suppose it could be a 1% difference which wouldn't matter much and I could get whatever I wanted on a whim... or it could be that there is, and I am really hoping there IS, a major difference. Because as long as it is a landslide then it makes choosing what to buy easy easy easy.

It is also extremely hard for anyone who I supposed isn't in the tool making business to answer this question. But I am hopeful that someone has some personal experience that they can pass on. Or maybe Doug will chime in and save me.

Thanks Everyone!

Joshua

Reed Gray

07-15-2010, 1:06 AM

I find comparing edge holding ability difficult. I do have one HSS Ellsworth signature gouge. I can definitely get a keener edge on it than I can on the powder metals. I have one of the Packard 'holds it edge 5 (or so) times longer gouges, a couple of the Oneway, a Sweezy (I think that is his name) gouge, a couple of Glazer, some of the Craft Supply 'Artisan' HSS gouges, and a bunch of the Thompsons.

Other than the superior edge holding ability of the powder metals, there isn't a whole lot of difference that I can notice. That being said, I do almost all of my roughing with scrapers. For me, the main cut you use for roughing is a scraping cut, and there is no better tool for doing that with than a scraper. This means that my gouges are mostly used for the finish cuts, and I do touch ups with a shear cut done again with a scraper. I will ALWAYS take the gouge to the grinder before making a finish cut. The powder metals will keep a good edge for roughing much better than the other metals, but there isn't a whole lot of difference in how long it keeps the fresh off the grinder edge, or the honed edge.

Other than that, I prefer buying from Doug because you buy direct from the manufacturer, and not through a lot of third parties.

I would guess that flute shape makes as much difference as anything else. I prefer the V shaped gouges from Doug, and like the 5/8 on the outside of the bowl, and a 3/8 or 1/2 inch on the inside. I don't like the V shaped Glazer. The U shaped gouge from Doug is pretty good, and I prefer it on the outside of the bowl to the inside. I haven't ground one of them into a bottom of the bowl gouge yet (about 70 or so degree bevel, and very little sweep, maybe 15 degrees), and probably should. I just can't stop experimenting.

I don't really know if this answers your question or not.

robo hippy

Neil Strong

07-15-2010, 7:18 AM

Can't comment on the Crown Pro-PM, but have Thompsons and a few others including an Ellsworth sig gouge. As Robo Hippy observes, the Ellsworth takes a very keen edge which last quite well but not as long as the Thompsons which will cut and cut but not as keenly as the Ellsworth.

In practice I can keep hogging with the Thompsons after I give up on the Ellsworth, but end up taking the Thompson back to the grinder anyway to get a better edge for finishing cuts. So in practice I sharpen both just as frequently.

If I lived in Nth America I probably wouldn't bother with anything else other than the Thompsons. High quality at a reasonable price.

Here is the Antipodes we have a few other good options, including P&N and Woodcut.

.....

Barry Elder

07-15-2010, 7:32 AM

Mike Minto

07-15-2010, 9:26 AM

I like the edge holding of both the Crown PM and Thompson's, but it seems to me that more metal comes off a Thompson (and it gets red faster) during a sharpening session than the Crown PM - anyone else notice this?

John Keeton

07-15-2010, 9:42 AM

Mike, I am probably doing something wrong, but my gouge is only on the stone for mere seconds when I sharpen. It doesn't get red - too hot to hold one's finger on, but not red.

Thom Sturgill

07-15-2010, 10:09 AM

Joshua, It looks like you and I are trying to get to the same point from different directions. :confused: I was asking which one actually seems to get sharper and everyone wanted to answer about HOW to sharpen. My question is that given that I am going to re-sharpen or touch-up the edge on a gouge dedicated to finish cuts, which is best - M2 (the most common HSS) or Powder Metal (Pro-PM, Thompson, etc) based on brand. The sharpness issue is of course complicated by issues of geometry, and while you can change your grind, you can't change the flute design. In your case, I don't think you would regret either choice since you have narrowed down to Powder metal. With Doug you are dealing directly with a fellow turner who is the manufacturer. My solution would be to buy both. I like having more than one gouge of a given type (of the ones I heavily use) so that instead of stopping to re-sharpen, I just grab the next gouge. Since they are consumables, I choose to buy two and wear them down slower.:cool:

Joshua Dinerstein

07-15-2010, 11:35 AM

Mike, I am probably doing something wrong, but my gouge is only on the stone for mere seconds when I sharpen. It doesn't get red - too hot to hold one's finger on, but not red.

That would seem like a good thing. I am still trying to learn to sharpen instead of "grinding". Given how little metal really needs to be removed to get a new fresh sharp edge I think you are doing it right instead of wrong John.

But that's just me. :)

Joshua

Joshua Dinerstein

07-15-2010, 11:44 AM

Your question can't be answered without scientific committees and government intervention (TIC). How sharp is sharp? How long is sharp sharp? Rhetorical questions that should be answered by a Congressional Committee (Ha)! Have a great debate.

No. I don't really think so at all.

When I started I used the cheap HF $9 set of high carbon steel. I could feel it cut clean for a maximum of about 15 seconds. Then you could actually feel the tool dull. While it was probably dulling all along it felt like a cliff in the chart. All of a sudden just wham! the tool was truly blunt.

So I went to the HF HSS. That feels like it holds and edge forever. But I have discovered since buying them that that just isn't true. It starts out sharp. I get way way way more than 15 seconds of cutting time. But it continues to dull over time during use. I clearly don't sharpen often enough because it goes from feeling it is still OK to cutting amazingly well after being sharpened. And I have had "Oh man! I did it again..." realization. That I should have sharpened up much quicker than I had. I would say that I am probably sharpening about every 45 minutes during turning and that is too long. So I have started trying to target more like 15 or 20 minutes or so. I just tend to lose track of time while turning. Which BTW is really great! To have something to do that can really suck you in.

When I got the BB bowl gouge I noticed that it worked even better. Not the jump I got over the cheapy tool set I started with. But I rather that I think that it stays sharper enough longer to actually notice. I still sharpen before finish cuts and I still have the tendency to wait too long to sharpen up.

The question I was looking at here wasn't designed to be answers like 15:01 versus 16:05 in terms of cutting. But the same personal feelings I am finding the tools I have used. I.e. I can tell when something gets sharp and stays there a reasonable about of time. So if someone had both and one stood out as working noticeably better than the other then that would be a great thing to know. If those with both find they are identical then it becomes a matter of personal preference.

Apparently in re-stating my question I didn't really make it any clearer... Bummer.

Joshua

Steve Kubien

07-15-2010, 1:59 PM

No experience with the Crown PM's though I hear they are nice. I have one Ellsworth gouge, one P&N and everything else is Thompson...skews, spindle gouges, detail gouge, bowl gouges...

Here's my thinking... They are great tools at a reasonable price. They take and hold a great edge. Plus, and here is a biggie for me, they are made by an independant toolmaker, not a larger corporation. I like to support the smaller outfit when I can.

Kyle Iwamoto

07-15-2010, 2:53 PM

I don't have any other PM tools other than Thompson Vs , but I really like them. I also agree with Joshua, that I can get my Sorby (go ahead, get your flamethrowers out) sharper on my Tormek, but the Thompsons definetely hold the edge longer. So I use my Sorby for the finishing. Works for me. I do have the same size Thompson and Sorby, using the same jig setting.

Don't know if this helps either, but I've been following the thread with great interest, and thought I'd chime in. If I buy more tools I'd go with the Thompsons. Oh, did I say "if"? I meant "when".... :) The vortex is strong. I may want to try the U gouges.

Just my $0.02.

Allen Neighbors

07-15-2010, 6:51 PM

Joshua, I sharpen my gouges on a 120 grit wheel. I believe my Thompson gouges hold the edge longer than my Crown Pro PM.
I haven't made a test using both of them, but I think I will, now that you've put it this way, when I get some spare time.
I think a reasonable test would be to put a large piece of hard wood on the lathe, and use each of the gouges to turn the piece down, each gouge on it's own part of the wood. Until it takes more pressure to get it to cut. That's when the edge has worn down - when it takes more pressure to cut with it. Maybe it's not scientific enough for Barry :D, but it's enough for me.
I'll let you know how it turns out, if I get to do that.

Edward Bartimmo

07-15-2010, 7:54 PM

I am a tool junky. At the end of the day you are not going to notice the difference between PM, Kryo, and similar steels. In all fairness, how sharp are we getting the tool in the first place when at best we are using 120 grit white wheel. My experience is that PM doesn't sharpen as easily on grinder as Kryo or HSS. I have Ellsworth 5/8" Gouges in both PM and HSS...I keep reaching to the HSS because I can obtain a better edge. In my mind holding a less sharp edge for a longer duration is less valuable then obtaining a sharper edge from the onset.

There is a point at which the added technology in the steel doesn't readily translate into improved performance. To keep up with the steel technology you will have to revisit and upgrade your sharpening technology to maximize the tool steel. For the average turner (non-production) the +35% cost premium for extended life of PM most likely doesn't offset increase steel usage rate of sharpening HSS to hold same edge. I just had a flashback to one of my dad's speaches of "K.I.S.S."

For turners the marginal difference in performance between the steel types goes unnoticed. Lucky quarter is lucky because you believe it is lucky. At end of day it is the confidence in the tool in your hand that makes the difference.

Thomas Bennett

07-15-2010, 10:03 PM

thanks Reed for the description of your tools...well stated!
To continue the thread, I use a Crown PM "Ellsworth" and several Thompsons. I have a smaller Glazer that is one of my favorites. In the future , I'm continueing in the Thompson direction.

I find comparing edge holding ability difficult. I do have one HSS Ellsworth signature gouge. I can definitely get a keener edge on it than I can on the powder metals. I have one of the Packard 'holds it edge 5 (or so) times longer gouges, a couple of the Oneway, a Sweezy (I think that is his name) gouge, a couple of Glazer, some of the Craft Supply 'Artisan' HSS gouges, and a bunch of the Thompsons.

Other than the superior edge holding ability of the powder metals, there isn't a whole lot of difference that I can notice. That being said, I do almost all of my roughing with scrapers. For me, the main cut you use for roughing is a scraping cut, and there is no better tool for doing that with than a scraper. This means that my gouges are mostly used for the finish cuts, and I do touch ups with a shear cut done again with a scraper. I will ALWAYS take the gouge to the grinder before making a finish cut. The powder metals will keep a good edge for roughing much better than the other metals, but there isn't a whole lot of difference in how long it keeps the fresh off the grinder edge, or the honed edge.

Other than that, I prefer buying from Doug because you buy direct from the manufacturer, and not through a lot of third parties.

I would guess that flute shape makes as much difference as anything else. I prefer the V shaped gouges from Doug, and like the 5/8 on the outside of the bowl, and a 3/8 or 1/2 inch on the inside. I don't like the V shaped Glazer. The U shaped gouge from Doug is pretty good, and I prefer it on the outside of the bowl to the inside. I haven't ground one of them into a bottom of the bowl gouge yet (about 70 or so degree bevel, and very little sweep, maybe 15 degrees), and probably should. I just can't stop experimenting.

I don't really know if this answers your question or not.

robo hippy

neil mackay

07-16-2010, 4:06 AM

If I lived in Nth America I probably wouldn't bother with anything else other than the Thompsons. High quality at a reasonable price.
Here is the Antipodes we have a few other good options, including P&N and Woodcut.

yes we do, but I do prefer Thompson. The isolation of the antipodes is balanced by some magic timber for turning tho '

Neil Strong

07-17-2010, 12:05 AM

.... I do prefer Thompson. The isolation of the antipodes is balanced by some magic timber for turning tho '

Shhh, shhhh, Neil. Don't encourage the Nth Americans to import any more of our timbers than they are already, otherwise there will be none left for us....:)

On the Thompsons, I was refreshing the polish on all of my gouge flutes yesterday. Something I do in batch mode from time to time, but not since the Thompsons arrived. Anyway I noticed something on at least one of the Thompsons that I hadn't noticed before. After the milling marks had been eliminated some areas of very fine pitting became obvious. Hadn't noticed any pitting on the bevel, so assume that it's not a deep structural feature but either an artifact of milling or remnants of forging that hadn't been completely milled out. When I get time I will hand grind the flute and polish again. Why I raise this here is that a very fine pattern of microscopic pits would compromise sharpness as it reach the edge, in the same way as milling marks do, and could be one reason that my Thompson hasn't felt as sharper as my Ellsworth.

.....

Neil Strong

07-17-2010, 7:32 PM

Doug Thompson

07-17-2010, 8:16 PM

Took a photo of the pitting on the Thompson flute (Photo 1), as well as the Ellsworth (Photo 2) for comparison, when I was around at my workshop yesterday which I thought might be interest to others.

156082 156083

That amount of pitting would definitely have an impact on sharpness along at least some of the edge. Both gouges are 5/8" measured the US way. I use the two gouges interchangeably in equal amounts so doubt if it's caused by use, eg wet shavings left on on the flute too long.

Don't know if I've got an isolated example of this. Hadn't noticed it on my T3/8", but might have a closer look when I'm around at the workshop today.

.....

Toss that gouge away or cut some off. the pitting is from when the steel was manufactured. Send me your address and I'll send one out Monday. I've only seen this twice before, it's almost like the powder is not packed together well, could it be at the beginning or end of a run at the mill.

Alan Trout

07-17-2010, 8:37 PM

Not only are Doug's tools great. This is the probably the biggest reason to use Doug's tools. The uncompromising service!!

Alan

Mike Spanbauer

07-17-2010, 8:38 PM

+100 His customer service is on par w/ Lee Valley - which is a VERY high bar for those who know.

Neil Strong

07-18-2010, 5:30 AM

Toss that gouge away or cut some off. the pitting is from when the steel was manufactured. Send me your address and I'll send one out Monday. I've only seen this twice before, it's almost like the powder is not packed together well, could it be at the beginning or end of a run at the mill.

Very gracious of you Doug to offer to do that.

I did have a closer look again at the 3/8" that came at the same time as the 5/8" and I must say that it is perfect, even better than the Ellsworth....:D
So, as you say, an isolated glitch that snuck past the QA system.

Thanks Doug

.....

Harlan Coverdale

07-18-2010, 7:13 AM

Not only are Doug's tools great. This is the probably the biggest reason to use Doug's tools. The uncompromising service!!

Alan

Agreed. I have Thompson U and V gouges in 1/2" and 5/8" sizes and will continue to add to the collection as I can. I moved up to the Thompsons from Benjamin's Best, and have been very happy with them. Not much chance I'd need any service from the manufacturer, but knowing it's there is a bonus.

Joshua Dinerstein

07-18-2010, 10:23 AM

Jake Helmboldt

07-18-2010, 12:31 PM

OK. I am sold. Thompson gouges it is. Luckily I only need about 6 of them. :) Thank goodness Doug combines shipping!

Those are some interesting photos showing the edges... Thanks for sharing.

Joshua

Good choice. While the Pro-PM tools are good (I have one skew I got on ebay) you won't find them lurking here giving advice and sending out replacement tools when the rare bad tool turns up. I can't decide which gouge to get next.

Doug Thompson

07-18-2010, 1:55 PM

So, as you say, an isolated glitch that snuck past the QA system.

Thanks Doug

.....

That says I need some new glasses :cool:

Neil Strong

07-29-2010, 10:04 PM

Not only are Doug's tools great. This is the probably the biggest reason to use Doug's tools. The uncompromising service!!

I have to agree Alan.

The replacement tool that Doug so promptly offered to send to replace mine arrived a few days ago. Have since handled and given the end of the flute a polish, AND it came up beautifully.

157102

Many thanks Doug.

.....

Allen Neighbors

07-29-2010, 11:19 PM

Wow, Neil!! Your photography makes me ashamed of mine... that gouge has wings... :D

Neil Strong

07-30-2010, 6:01 AM

Wow, Neil!! Your photography makes me ashamed of mine... that gouge has wings... :D

It don't look so pretty now Allen after roughing out a dozen green bowls, but it's still cutting beautifully...:)

.....

Hilel Salomon

07-30-2010, 7:35 AM

There really is a substantial difference between a tool staying reasonably sharp and one which can be sharpened to a very fine edge. A fellow creeker and I have been discussing this.
My experience is that of the powdered metal gouges, length of sharpness is as follows (longest to shortest): Thompson, Crown PM and Hamlet 2060); Fine edge sharpness (sharpest first): Hamlet 2060, Thompson, Crown PM.

Thompson's may be best in combining the two considerations.

I have many gouges of each manufacturer and use them regularly. A note about sharpening: I use the Tormek grinder-which I love- every third or so time a tool needs sharpening. I find that of the powdered gouges, Hamlet does best on the Tormek. Thompson does best on a grinder.

Hilel

Hilel Salomon

07-30-2010, 7:50 AM

Of course, right after I submitted my post (above) I realized that I should have added some other factors:

Hamlet is practically impossible to find in the US.. particularly after it was bought by Taylor;
Thompson tools take a whole heap longer to wear down than anything I've ever used; (in looking at my gouges, the Thompson ones will not need replacing any time soon)
Doug stands behind his tools and his service is great.

Hilel.