Home Wi Fi

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

This is my first (and final) foray into wireless in the home.
It’s a HUGE old home with stone mortar and rubble in the 8" – 10” thick Oak mortise and tenon wall construction. The Base will be at one end of the building the receivers at the other. I need a stability, good range, high speed, and versatility. Oh and security. I don't want criminals driving by to hack my system for their illegal storage, other activity and such.

Applications:
1.) An additional computer station the da missus when she’s got to log onto to work from home. (a laptop)
2.) Sony PS3 slim which is my DVD and Blu Ray player and Netflix streamer for my home theater that I’m setting up.
3.) Wireless PC link up for a BCS 460 process controller to run my brewery (a workstation type computer)

So The selection seems to be the following:
A) Netgear Rangemax WNDR3700 Dual Band Wireless-N Gigabit Router
And the
B) Linksys E3000 High Performance Wireless-N Router

The PS3 doesn’t need a wireless component as it’s already enabled
The Brewery computer will want a card.
The laptop will need a little plug in gizmo.
I’m guessing the extra hardware should be same brand as the router.


Any ideas about the routers - or maybe more robust routers?

[Bill Davis]

I'd go for a 3HP router with a 1/2in collet mounted in a router table. Stick to a major brand as they are more likely to go the distance. :):p

[Chris Harry]

Look for something that can run a 3rd party software like Tomato or DD-WRT. (list of DD-WRT capables here: http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Index:FAQ#Which_router_should_I_buy.3F)

I personally like Linksys.....their WRT54GL/GS was the beginning of an era of good routers that gain a whole ton of features when used with a 3rd party firmware.

Not trying to rain on the parade, but wireless "security" is just mostly secure. It can be hacked if a person really wants to. There are plenty of things you can do to make it more secure than most people would (change the default router user (if possible) password and SSID, dont broadcast the SSID, etc), but if someone really wants in via wireless, they'll get in.

[Jerome Hanby]

The wireless on the PS3 really bites. If you can arrange things so that you can plug it into the router then things will run much better.

[Matt Meiser]

I use Linksys WRT54G variants running DD-WRT . It takes 2 to cover my house and bridge to a 3rd in my shop but I will probably be able simplify that to 1 once I run fiber to the shop. I only have one machine that has an 802.11N interface that that isn't important to me right now. A lot of our stuff is hardwired since that is faster than 802.11G.

Security wise:
- I live far enough from my neighbors that they probably can't get a strong signal
- I don't broadcast the SSID. They don't know who's network they are seeing.
- I use WPA rather than WEP because its supposed to be more secure.
- I have another access point for "guests" that use WEP, a separate interface on my routher, and a captive portal. The second interface isn't bridged to my LAN network to keep guests from accessing anything on my network. All they can do is use my internet access. And the captive portal times out every 60min and they have to log back in.

Most of this isn't non-techie friendly stuff. It was enough of a learning curve for me and I'm a computer guy (but not networking.)

[paul cottingham]

All wireless is totally vulnerable to hacking. I tell clients, if you don't want your network hacked, don't use wireless. Period.

[paul cottingham]

All wireless is totally vulnerable to hacking. I tell clients, if you don't want your machine hacked, don't use wireless. Period.
As for the OP, a lot of wireless doesn't work well at al in buildings with stone inside. You could try a repeater, but they are mostly junk. I would use wire if at all possible.

[Pat Germain]

All wireless is totally vulnerable to hacking. I tell clients, if you don't want your machine hacked, don't use wireless. Period.

Any network is vulnerable to hacking. I don't think that's a reason to not connect to a network or not stand up a wireless network. If you don't advertise your connection and lock it down with encryption, it's pretty tough to hack. Sure, it can be hacked. But like I already said, so can any network.

[paul cottingham]

yes, but a wired network isn't broadcasting to the whole world. There are easy to find tools that exploit a mathematical weakness in WEPand WPA that crack the encryption wide open, and theey are easy to find and easy to use.

[Pat Germain]

yes, but a wired network isn't broadcasting to the whole world. There are easy to find tools that exploit a mathematical weakness in WEPand WPA that crack the encryption wide open, and theey are easy to find and easy to use.

As are tools to break passwords and hack past a router. But I see your point about a wireless network being more vulnerable. Considering the effort and expense of installing CAT-6 throughout a house, wireless is still the way to go; unless it just won't go through the walls.

[paul cottingham]

Never regretted wiring my house with Cat5 e. And I can use it for phone or network.....:D

[paul cottingham]

As are tools to break passwords and hack past a router. But I see your point about a wireless network being more vulnerable. Considering the effort and expense of installing CAT-6 throughout a house, wireless is still the way to go; unless it just won't go through the walls.

Really? I've been in the industry for 20 years and have never seen a tool like that. That is cool and more than a little terrifying.

Glad I run Linux.

[Bryan Morgan]

Really? I've been in the industry for 20 years and have never seen a tool like that. That is cool and more than a little terrifying.

There are plenty....


Glad I run Linux.


?? So do I, on piles of servers spread throughout So. Cal., as well as a few SCO and ancient IRIX boxes. I love *nix. Its what keeps a roof over my head. But, its not unhackable...

[Glenn Vaughn]

I went a different route.

1000 feet of cat-5 cable, 2 16 port switches and lots of connectors. I have connections in the important rooms. I do have WEP and wireless but it is locked down by my router. If someone gets into my network, they cannot get out of the LAN unless I enable the specific machine.

Cabled is much more secure than wireless and not hard to do. My basement is setup with a bunch of drops for "internet parties" that my son used to have (He is in the Marines now so the parties do not happen any more).

I have been running web servers, mail server and a game server for about 10 years and have never successfully been hacked - attempts are made almost daily to no avail.

[Chris Harry]

Really? I've been in the industry for 20 years and have never seen a tool like that. That is cool and more than a little terrifying.

Glad I run Linux.

At one point I had a link to a REALLY REALLY good tutorial on hacking wireless security. 2 laptops and a couple freely available programs was all you needed.

I have a mix of wired and wireless in my house. 99% of it is wired, the Wii is wireless (aint no way Im paying for a wired adapter) and one PC is wired because I havent gotten a chance to run a hardwire to it.

As long as you know what to expect with wireless, its not too bad. I wont do anything mission-critical over the wireless (i.e. pay bills, online shopping, etc), but for web surfing its fine.

And with 3rd party firmwares, routers like the Linksys ARE running Linux. Ive also used standalone firewall boxes running some form of Linux (Redhat 4.0 was my first :) ). Ive also used Smoothwall (which is an excellent product, BTW) with 3rd party content control (Dans Guardian). Now that I have kids I might be going back to the smoothwall solution unless I can get my Linksys to use a separate box for content control.

[Jim Becker]

Cliff, I have to use multiple access points in our home due to its construction...signals don't pass well between the 250 year old stone portion and other areas. In fact, there's something in the original exterior wall between the 1950s era construction and the 1980s era construction that mitigates signals, too. You may very well have to take a multiple AP (access point) approach in your home, too. Do make sure that if you do, that each AP is set to a different channel that is about 3 frequencies removed from the others. If you still have interference, it could be a neighbor's AP on the same or adjacent channel to your AP(s).

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Really? I've been in the industry for 20 years and have never seen a tool like that. That is cool and more than a little terrifying.

Glad I run Linux.

Oh yah baby. You can get cheesy ones for free on the internet-S and others that you may pay up to a hundred bucks for, and then there are others that cost a lot more like what the FBI uses to crack encrypted hard disks where they hope to find evidence of crimes. To find the better ones you gotta scroll past the thousands of Google returns for the children's toys with silly names like BIG JOHN and X-KRAK.

[Don Alexander]

if you connect to the internet you are vulnerable whether its wireless or wired

just like your house is vulnerable to being broken into and your car

add anything else to the list that comes to mind

security in any area is primarily designed to make hacking/breaking and entering as inconvenient as possible for the scum who do such stuff there are enough people out there who are blissfully ignorant/naive
about their risk that less than easy targets aren't so attractive


the truly determined riffraff can get into anything they really really want to get into computer , house or car
:eek:

[Leo Graywacz]

I have a Netopia Router and I can go three houses up and still get a very usable signal. It is a commercial router.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Well running cable is out.
The PS3 Slim has not got any physical ports for such a hook up.
So I'm definitely into the Wi Fi

I wonder if there is some firewall software that lets me lock a user out if they enter the wrong password more than X times. That's gotta be the most cost efficient way to nix the brute force password hackers


Jim Becker Said:
You may very well have to take a multiple AP (access point) approach in your home, too. Do make sure that if you do, that each AP is set to a different channel that is about 3 frequencies removed from the others. If you still have interference, it could be a neighbor's AP on the same or adjacent channel to your AP(s).

AP ~ ~ huh? You mean to use repeater bridges? I bet they are not called repeaters ( a term from Ham Radio) even thought that's what they are.
What does one call these things when searching for them?

What do you mean by AP's set to different frequencies?
Does the router needs to be able to broadcast across how many bands? The most I've seen for domestic use is Dual.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have a Netopia Router and I can go three houses up and still get a very usable signal. It is a commercial router.

Motorola huh? They used to be the Gold Standard in electronics.
Just checked the web site: They have like 5 different ones. Which is yours?

Here I read that some Routers work and play better than others on certain network ISP providers
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22286637-netopia-Netopia-3300-Router-Differences
I lack the technical basis to inform me whether posts like that are on the mark or all hooey or what.

[Matt Meiser]

AP=access point. Simplifying greatly, its the same thing as a router, but without the piece that routes traffic from your ISP to your wireless network. You can use most any router as an access point by not using the WAN port and using one of the LAN ports instead to connect it to a wired network. Which you said you don't want to do.

From the description of your house and the fact you don't know much about it, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth your time to have a reputable (i.e. not Best Buy) company come in, do a survey for you and recommend an approach? I'd think a small business computer consultant could do this for you.

[Warren Johnson]

Wireless is great when it works. The construction of the buildings has a lot to do with that.

I had to "hard wire" a house because the wireless just would not connect. You could look out the window of the house to the rear converted gargae which housed 2 offices. The only way to get it to stay connected was to hold the AP's at the windows. Installed 180 feet of outdoor rated Cat. 5e and no problems in the past 2 years.

Another example was a large house (think 3 floors and 4 or 5 bedrooms) one of those McMansions. The bedrooms on 2nd floor kept dropping off the LAN. (router was on 1st floor).

Hardwired the house and the longest cable was about 80 feet (well below distance limits), no problems after the install.

[Rob Steffeck]

Well running cable is out.
The PS3 Slim has not got any physical ports for such a hook up.


Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to be that is not the case (although I'm not a good gambler). I have an older PS3 and it has 100mbps ethernet. The newer PS3s have gigabit ethernet. Even the latest model specs show gigabit ethernet so there is most certainly a port.

I use my PS3 as my Blu-ray player and it is also what receives streamed HD video / music from my server running "PS3 Media Server". I had tried setting up wireless using two Linksys WRT160N routers flashed with DD-WRT. One router was hardwired to the PS3 and implemented as a wireless bridge. These were 2.4ghz routers, which was a mistake. Wireless N, in 2.4ghz band, can be very problematic. (see http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Wireless-N_Configuration for a good explanation). Needless to say, it didn't work well. I could stream video in 720p fairly well, but occassionally it would get jumpy or I'd loose connectivity altogether. I tweaked settings for weeks, but could not get consistent performance streaming / transcoding HD video.

Due to these things, I hardwired my PS3 and have had no problems. Maybe you'll have better luck with Wireless N at 5ghz, but expect to get intimate with your routers.

[Leo Graywacz]

Motorola huh? They used to be the Gold Standard in electronics.
Just checked the web site: They have like 5 different ones. Which is yours?

Here I read that some Routers work and play better than others on certain network ISP providers
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22286637-netopia-Netopia-3300-Router-Differences
I lack the technical basis to inform me whether posts like that are on the mark or all hooey or what.

Not at home right now so I haven't a clue. All I remember is it was one of their Enterprise models.

If I remember when I get home I'll post the model number.:D

[Leo Graywacz]

OK, here ya go, I'm home and I remembered. :eek:

'3387 WG-ENT' is the model number of the Netopia wireless router I use.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Are you sure about that?

Well, when I look at the back side panel there is nothing to plug any telecom type lines into. The PS3 Slim is a lot smaller than the old PS

My internet runs at 1.5 to 1.6 mpbs which is not real speedy. That's likely to be my main limiting factor with streaming.

[Rob Steffeck]

Well, when I look at the back side panel there is nothing to plug any telecom type lines into. The PS3 Slim is a lot smaller than the old PS

My internet runs at 1.5 to 1.6 mpbs which is not real speedy. That's likely to be my main limiting factor with streaming.

Every spec sheet, article, review that I can find on the PS3 slim indicates there's an ethernet port (near the optical and HDMI outputs, labelled 'LAN'). Here's one with pictures:

http://www.destructoid.com/hands-on-with-the-playstation-3-slim-145005.phtml (search for the word 'ethernet' on that page and you'll see the PS3 Slim ethernet port pic above)

I didn't realize you were streaming from the internet. I have 30mbps internet and even with that, I download media to my server and then stream them to my PS3. I can easily stream 1080p that way.

It would be difficult for you to stream any decent quality HD at speeds of 1.5mbps. For example, I believe that Netflix is streaming 720p right now and they require ~5mbps. But you're right, your internet speed is your limiting factor and any equipment you'd buy these days would easily be able to handle it....wired or wireless.

[Bryan Morgan]

From the description of your house and the fact you don't know much about it, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth your time to have a reputable (i.e. not Best Buy) company come in, do a survey for you and recommend an approach? I'd think a small business computer consultant could do this for you.

You can do your own survey. If you have an Android phone there are a few nifty apps to scan wi-fi.

[Matt Meiser]

You can definitely do all this on your own if you have the skills. The OP has indicated he doesn't and has a rather challenging environment for wireless.