cloudy ca finish

[Karl Card]

I have been using ca finish now that I have learnt to apply it.

I use titebond ca glue and blo to apply as a finish on my pens.

The problem is that after it sets for awhile it turns cloudy or dull. Not all of my pens do this just about half of them.

Am I using to much glue, making a thicker coat not as clear?

I have tried to watch how much blo I use and try to use as little as possible and have even tried using more to see if any difference, none that I could tell.

I have also tried the gorila ca and it seems that gorilla has alot more harmful odor to it when applying than the titebond.

I could really use some help on this one..

[David E Keller]

I've had some issues with this when using accelerator, so maybe if it dries too rapidly then you get cloudiness.

[Michelle Rich]

I believe that most people have given up the blo...also is it humid where you reside? Both issues have been discussed on other forums, so I hope my memory is correct

[Karl Card]

I do not use an accelerator but I have often wondered if I am rubbing the finish to long with the paper towl.

When I take the pen blanks off the lathe they look wonderful, clear and shiny but after they set or cure is when the dullness starts.

Also something I am wondering about it is, when a finish is super crystal clear and smooth as a waveless lake the finish will also feel kind of silky.

Well I find that in the cloudy pens the finish has a feeling of being smooth but very dry to the touch.

I will pay around today and not rub the ca as much and see what happens.

please excuse some of my descriptions I sometimes find it hard to describe exactly what I see, feel or etc...

[Joe Pfeifer]

The cloudiness could be due to the underlying finish not being completely cured. Try thinner coats of CA and give them some time to off-gas.

[Karl Card]

I finally hit google and read a bit about what causes this. There are not many things that cause this but at the same time it is more than one.

I think I need to finish my 64 oz cup of coffee and head on down to the shop... try some things and I will let you all know how it comes out... hopefully with pics...

thanks for the input..

[Bernie Weishapl]

Karl I stopped using BLO when doing my pens. I found on some woods that it is does cause clouding. I now use CA alone.

[Jon Behnke]

There are many, many variables to a CA finish. The type of wood is a big one, domestic woods like maple and cherry are easier to get a good CA finish on than the exotics. A lot of the exotics like cocobolo are oily woods, these are more difficult to get good adhesion of the glue. If you create any heat when sanding it will draw the natural oils to the surface. Try this: sand your wood blank to 400 grit, wipe off or blow of the blanks with compressed air, use Viva paper towel folded a few times as an applicator (do not use an embossed paper towel), put 3 or 4 drops of medium CA on the towel (do not use any BLO for this procedure), with the lathe running around 800 rpm wipe the CA from one end to the other getting a thin coat across the whole blank. You can wipe back and fourth once or twice but no more. Allow the CA to dry with the lathe running, climate has a lot to do with how fast and how well the CA dries, more humid = faster drying. Once dry apply another coat, once that's dry apply a third coat. After the third coat lightly sand with 400 grit to smooth out the layer of CA being careful no to sand through. Always stop the lathe and sand across the blank to remove radial scratches. Next apply another 3 coats as before and again sand to smooth the finish. Sand with Micro mesh through all grits, next apply a liquid scratch remover (Rockler carries a product called Novus that works very well) and then buff with a clean paper towel. You can at this point lightly buff with white diamond buffing compound holding the blank at an angle.
The idea is to get an even, smooth coat of CA. You need to build up enough of a coat to be able to sand out the lines you get from applying the CA. It's much like the paint finish on a car, the smoother the better the shine.
Good luck!

[Mark Hix]

+1 for what Jon said.

Be sure that your blanks are dry. Moisture is one of the culprits.

[Donny Lawson]

Thanks for the input on the cloudiness. I have one cedar pen that has done this and I just thought it was the way I applied the BLO/CA. It is now just sitting in a drawer but I can now go back and resand and just try CA only.
Donny

[Karl Card]

There are many, many variables to a CA finish. The type of wood is a big one, domestic woods like maple and cherry are easier to get a good CA finish on than the exotics. A lot of the exotics like cocobolo are oily woods, these are more difficult to get good adhesion of the glue. If you create any heat when sanding it will draw the natural oils to the surface. Try this: sand your wood blank to 400 grit, wipe off or blow of the blanks with compressed air, use Viva paper towel folded a few times as an applicator (do not use an embossed paper towel), put 3 or 4 drops of medium CA on the towel (do not use any BLO for this procedure), with the lathe running around 800 rpm wipe the CA from one end to the other getting a thin coat across the whole blank. You can wipe back and fourth once or twice but no more. Allow the CA to dry with the lathe running, climate has a lot to do with how fast and how well the CA dries, more humid = faster drying. Once dry apply another coat, once that's dry apply a third coat. After the third coat lightly sand with 400 grit to smooth out the layer of CA being careful no to sand through. Always stop the lathe and sand across the blank to remove radial scratches. Next apply another 3 coats as before and again sand to smooth the finish. Sand with Micro mesh through all grits, next apply a liquid scratch remover (Rockler carries a product called Novus that works very well) and then buff with a clean paper towel. You can at this point lightly buff with white diamond buffing compound holding the blank at an angle.
The idea is to get an even, smooth coat of CA. You need to build up enough of a coat to be able to sand out the lines you get from applying the CA. It's much like the paint finish on a car, the smoother the better the shine.
Good luck!



I have some sanding sealer here. I am wondering if it would make a difference on the exotic oily woods. I mean as far as building it up first then sanding then going with ca?

[Steve Trauthwein]

I have made many pens! I have revisited the blo a half a dozen times and I always set it aside. As mentioned earlier the great culprit is any detritus on the wood, be it moisture or dust etc.

I always had trouble finishing manzanita root burl and found it almost impossible to get a good finish on ebony. I started reading on the IAP site the other day and found a tip that has solve the problem.

I had tried cleaning the turned blank with alcohol, dna, and acetone. The tip that has made a difference is to clean the blank using the ca catalyst. No more cloudy finishes!

When you apply the first thin application you will need to be serious about getting on and off of the blank-one quick swipe! I usually apply three thin and four or five thick. I start by tearing a paper towel in half and then folding it in half-thirds-and half. This will give you a strip about 3/4 inch by 6. When applying the thick I run a bead across this strip and then apply it to one blank moving vigourously back and forth for about a quick count of seven. When you first start doing this you will occaisionally get some paper towel stuck to a piece until you get the timing down, but it will come. After I have done the same thing on the second blank the first is usually ready to do again.

On the advise of a member of our club I have been waiting 24 hours before sanding and micro-meshing the finish. This is tantamount to a confirmed drunk going cold turkey as I have no patience. It does seem to make a difference, although I do back slide frequently.

I almost forgot the number one caveat. One really needs to have fresh ca, if it is old throw it out and buy some more.

Regards, Steve

[Chris Stolicky]

I went through a pretty long period where I have given up on CA finishes because of the cloudiness issue. I decided to go back to it with some fresher glue, and it made a world of difference. Here are a couple of things I have learned, echoing some of the above:

- Fresh glue is needed for use as a finish. CA glue will last for years and will still stick your fingers together, but that doesn't mean it is still good for a finish.

- Any oily woods can give you difficulties (rosewoods, cocobolo, olive wood, etc.). The quick run down with mineral spirits or dna just prior to finishing is key.

- I personally like to use a small amount of blo. Whenever I have tried straight CA with a paper towel it has never worked properly, and I ended up having to sand. I use a folder up paper towel, about 2 drops of blo on the paper towel, and drip the CA right to the spinning blank. All along, I am rubbing back and forth on the bottomish side of the blank. I also do this at about 1800 rpms.

I find that the blo (not too much) allows for a really smooth finish because it acts as a lubricant for the CA. I think it pretty much flashes off as the CA cures and heats up (my theory). I have completely finished pens like this and had a crystal clear shiny finish without buffing or sanding.

- CA can be applied directly to the blank and a small plastic bag (think = pen parts bags) can be used to spread it back and forth. I have done this on other things, but not pens. The finish is not as smooth as when I do pens with blo, but it does work.

- Buffing, if desired. Waiting a day to buff is important because you want the CA to be as hard as it will get. Just because it feels hard, doesn't mean its cured. I find that white diamond as an optional first step, then followed by a dry buff works great to enhance the feel of the pen.

- One last thing. If there is any moisture in the blank, or you trap moisture under the finish, it will fog up; and may never go away. I turned and finished two amboyna burl barrels that are ~90% fogged up after two years. Still waiting... :rolleyes:

[Alan Trout]

Karl,

I teach a CA finish class once a month. BLO is the biggest problem that most people have. It does not allow the CA to cure properly and IMHO should not be used at all. It will cause cloudy and streaked finishes.

To keep from going into to deep detail I have found with people that I teach is that just stick with the thin CA. This is the easiest to apply but you have to put many more coats on to get the buildup. These are the steps that I teach. After the blank has been finish sanded dampen a paper towel with accelerator and clean the blank. This gets oils off and also acts as a mild accelerator for the glue so you get a better cure. Fold a paper towel to about a 1/2" width wet the end with the thin CA and just one quick swipe across. Do three coats this way. When the blank feels dry take another paper towel folded to about 2" wide and just do a light spritz of accelerator. rub this on the finish that is dry but no cured. This will speed the cure so you get minimum shrinkage. do a total of about 15 to 20 coats this way with every third dry coat rubbed with the accelerator spritzed paper towel. When done finish sand and polish as you normally do.

By the way I always seal the end of the blank with thin CA before I start the finish process.

This is the most fool proof method I have found and my students have had 100% success.

Far as CA's go I use the cheapest as I usually by 16oz at a time. The Star Bond and the EZ Bond can be had very reasonably and both work extremely well.

If you need more detail or questions just send me a PM.

Good Luck

Alan

[Allen Neighbors]

I think the blush is from moisture being trapped under the finish. My lacquer fogged up on me today, the first time in years that I've had it blush. It's from the spray picking the moisture out of the air, and it's trapped and unable to dry before the finish sets.

I live 245 miles from the nearest Woodcraft, and I hate to pay shipping charges on glue. So... I buy Loctite Super Glue in the Precision Max bottle, from Walmart. It's thin. I cut the pointed tip off the bottle, so it has about 1/8" opening.
I fold a Viva select-a-size paper towel three times, end-wise, so I have a about 6" x 1 1/4". I hold this paper towel against the bottom of the spinning pen tube, and squirt the CA along the top of the tube. I move from right to left, squirting the CA. When I get it all covered I rub back to the right end, then back to the left end, and remove the paper towel. I repeat the same procedure for each tube. When it has set up, I do it again. I apply 8 to ten coats this way, then sand with all nine grits of Micromesh. After the last coat has set up, about 15 minutes, I take it to my buffing system, and buff with EEE and WD and bare wheel. I've never had a pen fog up on me.
It sets up faster when the humidity is high, like today, about 75% :(

[Steve Busey]

One other factor I didn't see mentioned here is that not all paper towels are the same - I've found plain old Bounty brand works best for my CA application. Somehow the fiber makeup helps start the CA drying process. I've got a generic brand and another cloth-like brand in my shop, but both of those make a mess when working with CA.

[Karl Card]

If I have to wait 24 hours for it to cure I more than likely will go back to lacquer. To me deft lacquer was clearer than ca but not so much that the ability to have a pen finished in a short time made it just fine. Kind of a trade off a little.

I think I am still going to try the sanding sealer, couple coats then ca and see how it goes.... as soon as i can i will let you all know what happens.

[Rob Wachala Jr]

I was having fog issues at the end of blanks. They would fog up or worse the ca would bubble and crack off at the ends. What I ended up doing was sealing off the end with some wax. Nothing major just moving finger around in wax to warm it up and then tapping the ends. Be careful not to get any on the surface of the wood.

I also changed my CA application method to use BLO. I use a camera lens cleaner bottle;really just an eye dropper type bottle. I use blue towels or white towels. I have not decided which I prefer yet. I fold the towel over about 1" at a time until I have a long towel that's inch wide and thick. I put two drops of BLO on and then 3 drops of thin CA. With lathe running @ 1800 wipe it down both ways quickly and then snip off end of towel. I put on 8 - 12 coats depending on the project.

Sometimes I will use a aerosol accelerate between every 2 coats. It depends upon the conditions in my shop. Sometimes I let the pen sit for a couple days then hit with plastic polish and I'm done. Other times I will just finish on the spot. I haven't noticed any difference in the end result.

So far I haven't had any issues with any exotics or domestic woods. I haven't had any problems with uneven coat and having to sand. This method does not to seem to give as much of a gloss finish as when I used just pure CA.

One thing is for certain -- 1000 wood workers 1000 ways to finish something. In the end I think you just have to try everything you see/hear/read of and then make up your own hybrid style that works for you.