Pattern-making vise on woodworking bench

[Boris Sudel]

Hi,
I am in the process of choosing a design for my new workbench. Originally I was planning to use Sam Maalof's design from Woodworking bench book with the pattern-making vise in the tail vise position. Lately after reading a book by Schwartz I am considering Roubo design with wagon and leg vises. I am not planning to do a lot of carving, but general woodworking.

I wonder how useful you find your pattern-making vise is and what are your thoughts about these two choices.

Thanks,
Boris

[Darnell Hagen]

A patternmakers vise is unnecessary if you've never had one, and essential if you have.
I find new uses for mine (http://thewayiwood.blogspot.com/2010/07/bar-stools-assembly_10.html) all the time.
I would never say I know better than Maloof, but I don't think I would use it as a tail vise. The tail vise is predominantly to push dogs, and would be underusing the flexibility of the patternmakers vise.

[Brian Penning]

I wouldn't, couldn't do without mine.
So handy in so many ways....

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_eDYZqM9-MJw/Srn4DuOQmGI/AAAAAAAAM3g/0NxVrp2uSmQ/s512/IMG_3914.JPG

[Will Blick]

Darnell, thanks for that Link! Wow.... awesome....

I have the WoodRiver version of the pattern makers vise, its in a box, and I am considering installing it on a 2nd workbench I am building.... but, I actually thought about selling it.... I just could not think of many uses for it.... but your pix is making me re think the vise. I don't do any carvings......

Those chairs are superb....do you have pix of them fully finished and upholstered? I would love to see them.

[Jeff Duncan]

Don't know anything about the WoodRiver vise, but I own an Emmert PM vise and as said by others....couldn't live without it.
Not sure it would matter much where you mount it as long as it's a good position for the work you do. I have mine mounted along the long edge of the bench as it's most practical there for me.
As for the style of bench there is no 'better' design, it's really what works best for you. And no one can answer that question but you.
good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Ruggeri]

I have a Oliver pattern maker's vice on my bench now. Could I live without it? Probably, but I think it is nice to have and enjoy working with it. While most of the time have it in the "standard" position, it is really handy those times I need to move it to make the work better positioned. I too am looking to build a new bench (considering the Roubo, Holtzapffel and others) and whatever style I decide on it will incorporate the Oliver (probably mounted on the front with a wagon or standard quick release on the end).

Mike

[Boris Sudel]

I have a Oliver pattern maker's vice on my bench now. Could I live without it? Probably, but I think it is nice to have and enjoy working with it. While most of the time have it in the "standard" position, it is really handy those times I need to move it to make the work better positioned. I too am looking to build a new bench (considering the Roubo, Holtzapffel and others) and whatever style I decide on it will incorporate the Oliver (probably mounted on the front with a wagon or standard quick release on the end).

Mike

Mike,

Do you think that pattern making and wagon
vises at the end of the bench position
would interfere with each other?

[Mike Ruggeri]

Boris,

I think having both on the end might interfere with one another. I think the exception is a design I saw somewhere on-line (can't remember where and can't find it now) where the guy built the bench so the handle for the wagon vise was inset to clear the other vise. Something like this shape for the end of the bench:
________________
I........................I
I........................I
I. ......................I
I_____________I

With this configuration I think you could have both as the handle for the wagon vise would be clear from the other vise.

There is also this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=76185 where another member has both on the end of his bench and has them positioned so they wouldn't interfere with each other. You might want to do a search of the forum as lots of good ideas from other members.

Mike

[Rob Woodman]

I have to say that my last bench was fitted with a pattern makers vice, it was invaluable while making handrail components, Falling Wreaths, Scroll Wreaths and such. It could also handle tapered parts. I miss it.

Rob.

[Van Huskey]

Anyone use this Emmert clone? Have been eyeing it for a while.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/patternmakerswoodworkingvise.aspx

[Boris Sudel]

Van, I have this vise from Woodcraft (I bought it for $205) with 20% off coupon. Did not use it myself, but I have a friend who is very happy with it. It is made in Taiwan, so don't expect Tucker or certainly not Emeret quality, but it comes also 4-5 times cheaper.

Boris

[Boris Sudel]

Thanks Mike (and everybody).

Boris

[Bob Strawn]

I set mine up as an integral part of the bench (http://toolmakingart.com/2008/09/12/a-pattern-makers-vise/) so it could be used fairly universally.

http://toolmakingart.battlering.com/images/PMVise/PMVise01%20Normal.JPG

I set it up so it would be able to be grab flush with the edge of the table, This gives all of the edge working abilities of classic front vise, while keeping the abilities of a patternmaker's vise. This is my go to vise. I look at, drool over, and occasionally make other vise configurations, but I don't need them, this vise in this configuration does pretty much everything I need.

I put a lot of the setup and details in my blog (http://toolmakingart.com/).

Angles with Patternmaker's vise (http://toolmakingart.com/2008/09/16/patternmakers-vise-can-give-you-some-new-angles/)

Setting up the Patternmaker's Vise (http://toolmakingart.com/2008/09/18/setting-up-a-pattern-makers-vise/)

Patternmaker's Axillary Jaw (http://toolmakingart.com/2008/09/22/even-more-tricks-the-pattern-makers-vise-can-do/)

Bob

[Van Huskey]

Van, I have this vise from Woodcraft (I bought it for $205) with 20% off coupon. Did not use it myself, but I have a friend who is very happy with it. It is made in Taiwan, so don't expect Tucker or certainly not Emeret quality, but it comes also 4-5 times cheaper.

Boris


Thanks, that one has been on my radar also.

[Bob Strawn]

I forgot to mention that I got mine from Highland, while they had free shipping. As a further note, it is huge. massive and it is amazing! Do not put it on the end of a light table, it weighs 60 lbs and whatever you clamp will add it's weight. If you then start an operation that pushes outward, your table could tip. This needs to be mounted to a nice heavy table with nice heavy legs.

Bob

[Will Blick]

Bob, a special thanks for that great blog and awesome pix....I got motivated to install mine.... but this pix concerns me....

http://toolmakingart.battlering.com/images/PMVise/PMVise03%20%20Chiseled%20out%20Track.JPG



It appears you must dig out a lot of the tops thickness for proper mounting...at this point, how thick is the top? Seems you removed most of the tops thickness in this area, right?

[Bob Strawn]

I did dig rather a lot out. Considering the weight and all the screws that mount on the top do not seem to be big enough to hold it, yet they are doing a good job. I left all the meat I could around it to make sure it was solid. The bench is over 3" thick so I did do a lot of digging.

My real worry is that as I resurface and level my workbench, the metal plate will become more and more proud of the surface.

So mounting the vise to a panel and then mounting the panel to the workbench would probably be a better way to do this.

If the worktables main wood section had a rabbeted slot for the panel to sit on recessed a bit from the top, and machine screws from below came up through the tables rabbets, into spacers, and then into threaded inserts in the vise panel, then the vise would be able to adjusted in depth and leveled when changes occur. If damage to the panel is the problem, then it would be easily replaced.

The instructions (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/library/pm-instructions.pdf) for the Highland Version (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/patternmakerswoodworkingvise.aspx), Show a 3/8" recess for the plate, into a 1" thick section where the plate attaches. This gives about 5/8" of meat at the most critical section. I was quite nervous using the few screws attached and mounting this into SYP, but it seems to be solid still with no issues. I think mounting this on a 5/8" thick section of quality, not borg, plywood would do the job perfectly. I would however do a bit of testing before I trusted these dimensions entirely.

Bob

[Will Blick]

Bob, thanks....

So as you mention, this is the critical area....

155877


advise me if I have this right....

The most vulnerable area is at the edge, or below the hinge.

This is where it the bench top will be 5/8" thick, regardless of how thick your bench top is to start with. And the area of this 5/8" thickness will be 4.25" x 3.5".... right?

Then, the 16" you must hog out for the shaft, which is only 3" wide, will have a thickness of 1 5/8" along the remainder of the run (16" - 3.5" = 12.5") right? If so, that part is not bad....


I too would would desire to NOT expose the hinge plate, so you can keep the top flat through the years without the hinge becoming proud (great point you raised)

The only solution I can think of is, mortise in a piece of metal, about 1/4" thick which extends further to the left/right say 6" on each end. Epoxy in place. Add 3/8" of wood above the metal, now you have an all-wood top, and a stable holding platform for the vise.

What do you think of this Bob?

[Will Blick]

Actually, if I use a 3.5" long, 1/4" thick end mill, I can route the section that will house the metal insert, then the benchtop wood top would remain untouched...

But this would locate the rear jaw in front of the vise, not as elegant as your installation. So how much further would I have to route inward to allow the rear jaw to be flush ?

My unit is at another location, so I can't get at it it...
Any major flaws in my approach?

[Dan Karachio]

Hi Boris,

I have that book too and I ALWAYS look at that bench and wonder! I think it would be a great bench. Obviously it's original owner did just fine with it!

As someone who is not an expert in benches, but is finding out what I really need, may I respectfully, but strongly suggest you build yourself a weekend, cheapo beater of a bench and use it as your prototype to decided what you really need before you build your masterpiece! These beater benches don't need to be wobbly or light weight. Far from it. Some 4x4 fir from Lowes for the legs, use threaded rod to reinforce and tension the entire leg assembly and a top from butcher block from ikea, laminated mdf and/or plywood or whatever you have. Drill your dog holes, mount your vice and try it out for a few months. You will soon find what you like and need. Think of it as a trial bench or a prototype. Plus, it is fun.

For example, though others poo poo it, I REALLY want and could use a tool tray. So, I slapped one on my junker bench and I like it. I also discovered what and where I need my vices and dog holes. The bench I would build today is nothing like the one I imagined I needed before.

However, I do not have a pattern makers vice. I dream about them often, but I think the same strategy could help you. Seriously, you don't want to build a beautiful bench only to discover you want your pattern bench somewhere else right? They do require a lot of modification to the top and it could be messy.

Best of luck!

[Bob Strawn]

Bob, thanks....

So as you mention, this is the critical area....

155877


advise me if I have this right....

The most vulnerable area is at the edge, or below the hinge.

This is where it the bench top will be 5/8" thick, regardless of how thick your bench top is to start with. And the area of this 5/8" thickness will be 4.25" x 3.5".... right?

Then, the 16" you must hog out for the shaft, which is only 3" wide, will have a thickness of 1 5/8" along the remainder of the run (16" - 3.5" = 12.5") right? If so, that part is not bad....


I too would would desire to NOT expose the hinge plate, so you can keep the top flat through the years without the hinge becoming proud (great point you raised)

The only solution I can think of is, mortise in a piece of metal, about 1/4" thick which extends further to the left/right say 6" on each end. Epoxy in place. Add 3/8" of wood above the metal, now you have an all-wood top, and a stable holding platform for the vise.

What do you think of this Bob?

The plate is one side of a hinge that folds back on itself. Not much covering can go over it without reducing the potential movement of the vise.

I don't love the metal plate sitting flush with the top of my wooden bench, but covering it will reduce functionality.

http://toolmakingart.battlering.com/images/PMVise/PMVise31%20on%20top.JPG

As you can see, when swung up to spin, level with the table, the back jaw is nearly in contact with the plate.


Actually, if I use a 3.5" long, 1/4" thick end mill, I can route the section that will house the metal insert, then the benchtop wood top would remain untouched...

But this would locate the rear jaw in front of the vise, not as elegant as your installation. So how much further would I have to route inward to allow the rear jaw to be flush ?

My unit is at another location, so I can't get at it it...
Any major flaws in my approach?

I went extra deep in order to put the mass of the vise a bit deeper into the center of the table, just for stability. Then I made up for the extra depth with a really thick wooden jaw cover.


http://toolmakingart.battlering.com/images/PMVise/PMVise13%20Face%20Angle%20Control%20Center.JPG

http://toolmakingart.battlering.com/images/PMVise/PMVise16%20Back%20face%20block.JPG

I will have to measure the actual required offset for you Tomorrow. I had to remove a bit of extra wood after setting it up, to allow for full movement. You almost have to set it up once to see how to set it up. Some of the movement is obvious after it is installed, but is not intuitive to start.

Bob

[Will Blick]

> The plate is one side of a hinge that folds back on itself. Not much covering can go over it without reducing the potential movement of the vise.

dah.... I missed that ...... damn it... its a compromise I would consider living with....but its definetly a fly in the ointment... :-)
thanks

[rick carpenter]

You could mount the pm vise on a sufficiently stiff plywood base with a cleat that fit in the leg vise. Little Jorgenson clamps could add more security if you needed it.

[Will Blick]

Rick, I am not fully grasping what you are suggesting, can you further elaborate on this.... I have solid maple tops, ply is not stronger, than the maple, so is your idea still applicable?

[Doug Carpenter]

I didn't realize that they flip up like that. do they all flip up horizontally?

[Bob Strawn]

Actually, if I use a 3.5" long, 1/4" thick end mill, I can route the section that will house the metal insert, then the benchtop wood top would remain untouched...

But this would locate the rear jaw in front of the vise, not as elegant as your installation. So how much further would I have to route inward to allow the rear jaw to be flush ?

My unit is at another location, so I can't get at it it...
Any major flaws in my approach?


Fom the surface of the back jaw to the wood surface that the vise is mounted to is pretty close to 1 3/4 inches. To this, you would need to add the thickness of the jaw plate that you are going to add.

Looking at it, I think that a more snug fit to the table is easily possible. To get it right, you would almost have to mount it to mdf and carve out what you need. Then you could take it apart and use the mdf as a pattern.

Bob

[Will Blick]

Thanks Bob...Yikes, that would require a long end mill, 5.25" of cutting area plus holding area....
Probably not feasible... so maybe rear jaw flush is not a good option, unless of course its done like yours with the plate exposed on the top. OK, this will require some thought now.... nothing is ever simple :-)

[James Baker SD]

In my stupidity of buying things I intend to use, I have a stack of stickered maple waiting to become a good bench (based on BenchCrafted plans). Since I started collecting this maple 5 or 6 years ago, I have acquired 3 nice vises: Veritas Twin Screw, Veritas Tucker and BenchCrafted wagon.

Does it make sense to mount all three on the bench? I had though recently about mounting only the Tucker and wagon and building a small auxiliary bench/table to clamp on top of the main bench for doing dovetailing and other eye level work and mounting the twin screen on that aux bench.

Please offer suggestions as to how to utilize all three vises in some configuration. If pressure at work ever eases enough that I can actually build the bench, I want to have a plan ready to go. Thanks.

James

[Matt Kestenbaum]

My suggestion...mount the Tucker in the traditional front vise location (assuming you are right handed...on the front left side) and the wagon vise at the front right end (a wagon version of a traditional tail vise). Use the Twin Screw in a Benchtop bench...similar to the one here:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDFfree/011176038.pdf

[rick carpenter]

Rick, I am not fully grasping what you are suggesting, can you further elaborate on this.... I have solid maple tops, ply is not stronger, than the maple, so is your idea still applicable?

It would be fastened to a plywood base which would sit temporarily on your bench, i.e., your bench is its 'base'. Use the bench's vice to hold it, with little Jorgys as added security. You have it there when you need it, and it's gone when you don't.

[rick carpenter]

Uhhh, actually I was thinking about a machinist's vise. Sorry.

[Tom Sample]

I have a Oliver pattern maker's vice on my bench now. Could I live without it? Probably, but I think it is nice to have and enjoy working with it. While most of the time have it in the "standard" position, it is really handy those times I need to move it to make the work better positioned. I too am looking to build a new bench (considering the Roubo, Holtzapffel and others) and whatever style I decide on it will incorporate the Oliver (probably mounted on the front with a wagon or standard quick release on the end).

Mike
I have an Oliver No. 1. and am considering how to mount it on a new workbench. Did you ever build a Roubo bench? It is the style that I'm strongly considering.

[Terry Therneau]

Anyone use this Emmert clone? Have been eyeing it for a while.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/patternmakerswoodworkingvise.aspx

Van, I had one on my bench for quite a while; recently replaced it with a Yost that found at Tried and True tools (Minneapolis), because the Yost is larger (but mostly just because). My only complaint about the Highland vise was the hinge pin for pivoting it was drilled just a bit askew which meant that the necessary recess in my bench top for the mounting plate wasn't quite square. Didn't affect how it worked in the slightest, but since I didn't notice it before mounting I chiseled the recess a bit deep on one edge and it didn't look as nice (picky, picky). I covered the jaws with some leather belting I had around and really liked how it worked. It's now in a storage corner on the off chance that one of my sons will want it. The center guide is a large enough rectangle that you can clamp one side with no issues of racking, that may be the part I liked best.
Terry T.

[Chris Fournier]

Anyone use this Emmert clone? Have been eyeing it for a while.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/patternmakerswoodworkingvise.aspx

Looks like the same vise that I bought at the Japan Woodworker many years ago. It is entirely serviceable!