Trade up- pc biscuit to domino?

[Tom Rick]

I have a chance to get a fair deal on a used domino. Worth the trouble to trade up from by trusty PC biscuit jointer?

I have infrequent use for my biscuit jointer but it sure is handy to have when I need it.

[Cliff Holmes]

Since buying my Domino, my biscuit joiner lies gathering dust. Somewhere. I don't even know where it is ...

[John Keeton]

Tom, you will find way more uses for the Domino than you could possibly find for the biscuit joiner - I sold my old PC joiner shortly after getting the Domino, and never looked back!

[Prashun Patel]

If you can afford it, I don't think there's anything out there that can make as strong a joint as effortlessly.

[Paul Johnstone]

I would keep the biscuit jointer, even if you buy the domino.

There's a lot of stuff that a biscuit jointer can do that a domino can't. For example.. a biscuit to strengthen the miter joint on door casing. There's also times where the biscuit's "slop" is advantageous (like attaching a face frame to a cabinent carcass .. sure it can be done with dominoes, but biscuits are easier). Also, biscuits are less expensive than dominos.

The domino is a great loose tennon solution though.

[Matt Meiser]

Why couldn't you use a Domino on the door casing, especially with the new 4mm Dominos? And you can get the "slop" by using the wider setting on the Domino which lets the tenon slide side-side.

[Will Overton]

Why couldn't you use a Domino on the door casing, especially with the new 4mm Dominos? And you can get the "slop" by using the wider setting on the Domino which lets the tenon slide side-side.

+1

Either Paul doesn't use a Domino, or he didn't read the instruction book. :D

[Paul Johnstone]

Why couldn't you use a Domino on the door casing, especially with the new 4mm Dominos? And you can get the "slop" by using the wider setting on the Domino which lets the tenon slide side-side.

In my opinion, the biscuits slide much easier. I can lay a large face frame down (dryfit), cut two biscuit slots for alignment, spread glue, lay down face frame and clamp.

If I do that with dominos, it's a tighter fit and harder to slide the Face frame up and down for alignment. But you are right, it can be done. In my opinion, it's more difficult though.

I guess my opinion is that selling a used biscuit joiner isn't going to bring in a lot of money anyhow, so why not keep it?


+1

Either Paul doesn't use a Domino, or he didn't read the instruction book. :D

:D I just think biscuits are easier and more appropriate.

Let me know if you guys figure out a way to domino Borg casing too :)

[Mitchell Andrus]

Since buying my Domino, my biscuit joiner lies gathering dust. Somewhere. I don't even know where it is ...

+1. Haven't touched it.
.

[Bill White]

I guess that it's kinda like havin' a Rolex even though my 27 tr. old Seiko keeps very good time. ;)
Bill

[Jeff Duncan]

Yeah I can't see giving up one to get the other, but I use all my tools more than most so slightly different perspective. I think the biscuit jointer is
still probably better for some things. And don't forget biscuits are dirt cheap....Festool tenons....not so much.
I do have a dedicated slot mortising machine that gets used quite a bit. But I go through a thousand plus biscuits a year also, so for me there's no way I'd give it up.
good luck,
JeffD

[Van Huskey]

I guess that it's kinda like havin' a Rolex even though my 27 tr. old Seiko keeps very good time. ;)
Bill


Not a great analogy since the Seiko actually keeps much more accurate time. The Rolex only has value if you appreciate the mechanical movement or want to try to impress somone, I guess the Domino could fit both of those bills though... :confused: So maybe it is a better analogy than I thought.

The Domino is a great and very flexible tool but it does depend on how you work, but if you use a lot of biscuits the Domino can open a lot of new paths. The Domino is one of the Festools where it is pretty much the only game in town. Most every other tool they make has competition that is 90+% as good but roughly half the price. The exception would be track saws but there is competition there.

[Cliff Holmes]

Most every other tool they make has competition that is 90+% as good but roughly half the price

But that 10% is sooooo sweet! A better analogy would be a Mercedes vs a Camry. The Camry does 99% of what the Mercedes does, but it's the extra details that make it worth it. Whether those extras have value to you, only you can decide.

I was in WoodCraft and asked to look at a T15 drill. I thought "there's no way on earth that any drill is worth $500". Then I took advantage of Festool's 30-day guarantee. After a day I knew I'd be taking it back eventually. After a week I wasn't so sure. After two weeks I was trying to convince myself that it really wasn't that good. After three I cleared out a permanent spot for the Systainer.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I have used my domino on miters using the 4mm dominos. Works great. Also you can set the domino to give you slide just like a biscut.

If you can get a domino, you wont be sorry. If you feel you must keep the PC and after a year of non use sell it.

I have also found that if you want to compare the domino to a biscuit you need to compare it to something more like the Lamello Top 20. The PC and all others for that matter just dont have the accuracy of the Domino. The only thing that comes close is the Top 20.


Some thing to keep in mind is that you can create a project with the Domino and completly dry assemble. You cant do that very well with biscuits.

Domino Pros:
Accurate
Strong Joints
Repeatable
Through Tenons


Domino Cons:
Domino Tenons are expensive
All measurements on the Domino are in Metric
Accessories are exensive

[Van Huskey]

But that 10% is sooooo sweet! A better analogy would be a Mercedes vs a Camry. The Camry does 99% of what the Mercedes does, but it's the extra details that make it worth it. Whether those extras have value to you, only you can decide.

.


Being a car nut I usually speak in car analogies but this one is tough. Your analogy isn't fair to Festool since Festool tends to be very reliable, the Mecedes not so much. Maybe a BMW 335 and a BMW M3...

[Michael MacDonald]

I am not sure I see the big advantage in areas where they compete... it appears to me that the domino is used to replace typical M&T joinery everywhere in a project, where biscuits are normally just used to join boards for making large panels. But where they complete is joining panels.

help me understand the difference... here is what MSV wrote with my comments...

Accurate - so the placement of fence/blade is more accurate? so less risk of a domino/biscuit causing your joint to be out of line?

Strong Joints - stronger than the panel glue-ups with biscuits? perhaps as M&T jointery, the domino is strong... but in that case it is really acting as a loose tenon... not something you would do typically with biscuits, I don't think.

Repeatable - not sure I understand this advantage... I can knock out biscuit holes with a router or a plate jointer pretty consistently.

Through Tenons - not sure I understand this... perhaps it cuts a nice, deep mortise? not something I would expect out of a plate joiner.


If I am interpreting this correctly, then the domino has more uses... but one has to give up typical M&T joinery and move to loose tenons.

[Homer Faucett]

I have had a Domino since November. I am keeping my Freud biscuit joiner because (1) yes, biscuits are a lot cheaper, so if simply aligning face frames or panels where strength does not have to be tremendous, you can save some dough; and (2) I find the biscuit jointer to be faster and easier to use than the Domino. The added depth and the oscillating action take some time to adjust to, and I find that you can just quick plunge a biscuit joiner faster than a Domino if you are making quick slots.

If I didn't already have a biscuit joiner, I probably would not buy one if I had a Domino. However, where the Domino is king is in making loose tenons for structural components. In that capacity, the Domino is much faster and better than any other method in my hands.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

The domino Fence is much tighter than the PC fence. No slop. Its more in line with a very high end plate joiner like the Top 20 which is very accurate.

It also has a indexing accesory that has a track that works much like a incra jig but is attached to the joiner. I have a PC joiner and its horrible as far as accuracy. The PC joiner is like using a shotgun and the Domino is like using a rifle with a scope.

Every signle joint you make with the Domino is going to be stronger than a biscuit. I have found even on large glueups its just a s fast as uing a biscuit saw. If you want the ability to slide the boards back and forth like you can with a biscuit there is setting for that as well.

Since it is so accurate its very easy to create repeatable joints. I have created projects with the domino, dry assembled them and acctualy put them in use. A month later I came back after some thought and milled a new piece and was able to get the dominos exactly possitioned for the replacement. This is great for 'design as you go' kind of projects.

I can place one piece on top of another piece and set the depth and mill completly through the first into the second. I can then insert a domino through them both from the outside. I have done this on some wildly shaped legs on a few projects.


The last thing I want to do is get the existing Biscuit users upset. But the fact is I used to be one. I used biscuits for every thing,

Glue Ups
Face Frames
Picture Frame Miters
Carcas Construction
Small and large box framing

I had jigs of all sorts for my Biscuit joiner. I even have a small detail biscuit joiner for doing very small and thin projects.

I was able to borrow a Domino for a couple days and was sold. After only using it once I purchased the Q version with the accessories. I have never looked back.

Most people who tend to argue these points dont own or have never used a Domino.

To the OP. If you can get a deal on a Domino dont walk. Run. Geit the Domino. You wont be sorry. Then after a couple days of using the Domino let us know what you think.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well I'll be the first to say I don't own one....then again don't need it with a dedicated slot mortiser:D But I'll also say it sounds like you had a bad biscuit jointer. I've used a lot of biscuit jointers and have to say the PC is the best bang for the buck. Sure the Lamello is a bit more refined but the price difference is huge. DeWalts are OK and get the job done but I'll stick with the PC.
I don't have any problems with slop in the fence or accuracy. Truth is I don't need it to be ultra accurate, that's the point of the biscuit joiner. You can align a project once it's glued and assembled and it will let you slide a little either way without moving out of it's flush alignment. I just put together 11 door jamb/casing assemblies last month using biscuits. The jamb edge got biscuits every 12-16" or so. The casing backs got a slot run the entire length during the milling stage. Once glued I was able to slide the casing onto the jamb and get a perfect mitered joint, faster and cheaper then the Domino!
I'll also say that I really don't use it for panels....no need. I can align them plenty well without biscuits and they add no discernable strength to the joint. I do use them for attaching FF's, for aligning complicated glue-ups, used to use them for carcass construction before the CNC, and pretty much wherever I need them. Again b/c they're cheap I don't mind throwing them everywhere.
Now I'm not saying not to buy the Festool and use it where it excels, no no no, I think it's a great tool. Just that I wouldn't give up a biscuit joiner to buy one. My 2 cents for what it's worth.
good luck,
JeffD

[Paul Johnstone]

I have used my domino on miters using the 4mm dominos. Works great. Also you can set the domino to give you slide just like a biscut.


Sorry, let me clarify.. The casing at Borgs now is very thin. You couldn't fit a 4 mm domino in there. You can barely fit an FF biscuit on their 2.25" wide casing. EDIT: I have not actually tried to do this, I don't have the 4mm cutter, but I can't imagine that it would fit.

But I agree.. if the wood is thick enough, using a domino for a miter joint is fine.

I also think the domino and biscuit cutter are comparably "accurate". The domino is better if you can use the domino pins to align off an edge. I have gotten better results on the domino by using pencil marks as opposed to the festool accessories. The same technique is used for biscuits.

[Matt Meiser]

Assuming the information I found that a FF biscuit is 5/32" thick is correct, they are essentially the same thickness as a 4mm Domino: 5/32" = 3.96875mm.

[Will Blick]

Jeff, you got the best of both worlds :-)
The Domino fits inbetween your two methods... the only real benefit being its portable, you can bring it to the wood...
Great post btw....

IMO, only using Dominos a few times.... there is probably a few situations where biscuits would still be preferable, mainly for their thinness and slop factor, which I find very useful. Trying to align 15 dominos down a row is much harder than biscuits.... assuming you want a no-fuss fit....

If I ever bought a domino, it would be to replace my Dowelmax, not my BJ. But I find the dowelmax very easy to use, and rock solid joints.... I am sure there is some applications where the domino would be much faster though. But being a tool freak, if I found a great deal on one, I would buy it simply to enjoy the tool....

bottom line, we have too many options today, but, its a nice problem....

[Paul Johnstone]

Assuming the information I found that a FF biscuit is 5/32" thick is correct, they are essentially the same thickness as a 4mm Domino: 5/32" = 3.96875mm.

Ok, maybe it will work. I don't have the cutter to try.

Still, I would prefer the biscuit cutter for this job, as it's so easy to do, and I don't have to buy another domino cutter and another box of dominoes.

I still think there's some things a biscuit cutter does better, and some things a domino does better.

It's true you can dry fit a dominoed assembly, but you have to sand down the dominoes to do it. Otherwise it's a bear to get the dominoes out of the holes.
Dry assembling sanded down dominoes and biscuits is about the same in terms of ease, IMO.

I think it's a real waste to use dominoes for edge gluing, but to each his own. I guess I don't see the point in selling the biscuit jointer, as these generally don't have much resale value. I'm not sure you could buy a 4 mm cutter and a large box of 4 mm dominoes with what you'd get by selling a used biscuit cutter.

Dominoes really excell at mortise and tennon applications though. I agree that it's a nice tool.

[Michael MacDonald]

Assuming the information I found that a FF biscuit is 5/32" thick is correct, they are essentially the same thickness as a 4mm Domino: 5/32" = 3.96875mm.

yes... I have been using a 5/32 slot cutter in a router in the past...

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I have to agree about the edge gluing. Just too darn expensive.

FYI the Domino has a little dial where you can add slop so your joint will slide just like a Domino.

I have ised my laser to cut 4,5 and 6mm Dominos out of Poplar and a few other choice materials.

[Steve Rowe]

I generally look at tools I have already purchased as sunk costs and selling would only recover a part of my original investment. Unless I never use it, I need the space, or just doesn't perform up to my expectations, I will always keep it.

I purchased a Domino when it came out. I still have a biscuit jointer and probably always will. They are different tools that perform their functions differently and having only one option available is too limiting for me. I rarely use the compressed beech biscuits since purchasing the Domino. I use the biscuit jointer primarily for Knapp RTA fasteners. It can also be used for a number of other Lamello specialty fasteners and hinges. These fastener options simply don't exist for the Domino. If such options were available for the Domino, I might consider selling the biscuit jointer.
Steve

[Keith Christopher]

Depends in my opinion if you want to do more loose tenon work in lieu of biscuits. I use biscuits mostly for aligning as they are really not meant for their strength. And I do alot of lone work in the shop so they assist quite nicely in aligning.

But if I had the chance to get a inexpensive domino. I'd be all over it.


I will own a domino I am just not ready to part ways with 1K yet.

[Sam Babbage]

Were I forced to choose between the two, obviously the Domino would be the winner. However, having access to both is the optimum solution.

In fact, we thought we were faced with this situation at work. I was biscuiting some tops when that funny, oh dear something is dying, electrical smell began to emanate from the bench. We thought it was the PC biscuit joiner, so we had a discussion about what to do. Should we just Domino everything? Should we replace the biscuit joiner? We decided that, while the Domino is an awesome tool, the consumable cost and speed advantage (I know i can biscuit a panel faster than Domino it) of the biscuit joiner made it worth replacement. Also, any tool has a lifespan, and inflicting wear and tear on a $400 tool is less painful than a $1400 tool (Australian dollars).

As it turns out, it was the Festo vac attached to the biscuit joiner that was spewing out the fumes of death. Don't take that the wrong way; it's a work-horse, it had over 10 years of hard service, and it's currently being fitted with a new motor.

As far as I am concerned a Domino will do everything a biscuit joiner can (except use those fancy Lamello fittings which look odd!) But a biscuit joiner is still the best tool for some jobs, in a cost/time sense.

That being said, whenever I want 'ultimate' flushness, I reach for the Domino.

[Tom Rick]

Thanks all for the thread- been a good one.

I have never used a Domino and only have laid my eyes on this used one to check condition.

I think what I will do is keep both. My PC has been a trusty friend for a long time and I don't find in my use that it fails in accuracy or has a sloppy fence etc as has been mentioned in this thread. Perhaps my older unit is a good one....
Perhaps as with most tools- when I reach for it, I know that it will do the job at hand. I will be interested to see if the Domino fills some other niche in in my work or simply usurps the PC position in the tool chest.

[glenn bradley]

I think what I will do is keep both.

Good call. As you've figured out, it isn't a trade up; they're just different tools.