Dust collection overload

[Dan Chouinard]

I am currently working without dust collection in my shop. There is an overwelming amount of info out there on dust collection. Single stage, two stage, cyclones, thein seperators, dust deputies, 6 inch, 5 inch, inside exhaust, outside exhaust, clear vues, oneides, kits......on and on and on.

I can not work another day without a dust collection system. Would love to save money and modify a system or build from kit. But time is money so most likely I will bite the bullet and buy something off the shelf that will give me a dust free shop.

With a budget of $1750 what would you buy?

Thanks,
Dan

[Chris Damm]

More info would help give an answer. For starters how big is your shop.? What machinery do you have now or plan to have in the future? The Oneida website is a good place to start. I have a 3hp double bag setup that I have less than $700 invested in so for your money you should be able to put a good system together.

[Mike Archambeau]

I purchased an Oneida 3hp V3000 with hepa filter. I am now working pretty dust free. It sure is a lot more enjoyable being in the shop. The V3000 was easy to setup and easy to use.

The combination of the cyclone with the hepa filter is a great one. This machine is good for your health, keeps the shop clean, and is not very noisy either.

[glenn bradley]

The size of your shop, type of machines and how many will be run at once and so forth will influence your decision. I understand how one can be frozen in the decision making process. I also know that waiting can be a problem, it was for me.

I have a 20' x 30' shop. I run a 2HP cyclone (Grizzly G0440) for my tablesaw upper and lower, router table upper and lower, large band saw upper and lower, oscillating sander and a tap for a clean up hose for the area around them. I run a 1HP Delta bag unit modified with a solid lower bag and an oversize American Fabric Filter upper bag.

The 1HP unit was money thrown at an inadequate unit to try to squeeze more life out of it till I could get the cyclone; worked so well it is now dedicated to my jointer and planer although it was totally inadequate as a whole shop solution. I run two shop vacs; one with a dust deputy for powered hand tools like the ROS and routers, another for my smaller band saw, DPs and other sanding stations. I also run an ambient cleaner overhead at approximate shop center.

Despite all warnings I managed to wait long enough to install good dust collection to do some sinus damage. Now despite all the DC gear I still have to wear a respirator even when hand sanding (and take medication every day) to avoid ear aches and sinus headaches. The severe discomfort makes it easy to remember to wear the respirator . . . I got that going for me ;-)

If your shop is similarly sized you should be ale to outfit it nicely with your budget. I do not recommend going cheap. Oneida is great stuff but pricey. The Grizzly unit is louder but, performance-wise has been more than expected in every way. The Delta (with modifications) serves its specific purpose well. The ambient cleaner filter gets cleaned or swapped about once a month.

I saved a bundle by going with ASTM-2729 pipe versus metal ducting which is over kill for someone like me that only spend a few hours in the shop per day. This money-model has shifted somewhat over the last few years as plastic fittings seem to have doubled in price and pipe is up about 30% from when I built.

Do not be surprised to spend as much or even more on your duct and fittings as you do on your machine. I spent about a third of the cyclone's cost plumbing it out but, I had a second machine already plumbed in. I would price out your ducting both ways and decide from there. The size of your main will also dictate some of your duct requirements; plastic doesn't come in 7" and so forth. What ever you do, do it now, not tomorrow. Your body will thank you now and in later years.

[Jim O'Dell]

I bought the Clear Vue cyclone (Following the design parameters put together by Bill Pentz) about 5 years ago. Only up and running for the last 3> years, but I love it. Granted I got a great price from an early sale, and I exhaust outside, so don't have the money invested in filters, but with all my duct work included, I have less than $1300.00 invested. My shop is 20 X 24, and I have major piping that ends in 3 different places with a total of about 45' of pipe. Current prices might be closer to your stated $ range. Bill Pentz' son is doing laser cut cyclone kits again. All the metal pieces precut. If interested in doing some sweat equity, that might be a good way to go. Might watch as the new owners of Clear Vue get up and running. They may have some specials to get back in the flow of things.
As you've stated, there are several brands out there, all with their loyal following. In my years on the wood forums, I've only seen one person purchase one of the major players, then over the course of a few years decide that it wasn't as good as another of the major players, and desire to switch. I won't mention the brands involved. But that is said to make the point that most everyone will say the brand they have is the best. Mostly because we don't have a chance to use multiple brands side by side to compare them before we purchase. I would think that most of the major players out there would be adequate to very good for what they are designed for. Do your research, see who you believe has the best set up for YOUR shop. Jim.

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. Glen, sorry to hear about your health issues and thanks for your warnings.

Part of my reasoning for transitioning from finish carpenter to cabinetmaker/woodworker is health related. Forty eight years old now and some of my parts are begining to show some wear. The lugging tools to and from job sites and humping doors and all the up and down from step ladders is too much wear and tear. Also have developed a shoulder nerve injury called parsonage turner syndrome. This will hopefully heal in a year or two. I will be able to protect myself better and it just makes sense for me to be in the shop as I get older. Also the shop is on my parents property 9 miles from where I live on the NH seacoast. Being in the shop that was my dads and the daily visits with both of them is priceless.

The shop is 21' by 27' and will most often be a one man operation. Machines include my dads Unisaw, a really sweat old key-start dewalt radial arm that belonged to my grandfather, band saw that was also his, a model 2030 makita planer that my dad bought, a jointer that leaves alot to be desired, my safety speed cut panel saw, and a jessem router table of mine that I really enjoy using. With my shoulder I may need to add a power feeder which may require the purchase of a shaper. Have Festool track saw, just bought festool 150/3 sander and the the medium sized dust extractor that was just love at first use. My next machine purchase will be a panel router for dados. Have a ridgid shop vac with hepa filter. Want to hang the top rated air cleaner from the ceiling the name of which escapes me at the moment.

Is outside exhausting of fines visibly noticeable and or louder? Does it create issues that are difficult or costly to deal with when heating with wood and cooling by AC?

Does it make more sense to have one large collector with plumbing to all machines or add a couple little portable units for some of the smaller machines?

As close to dust-free as I can get is my goal. If budget needs to expand then that could be possible.

Any and all feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dan

[Jim O'Dell]

Dan Chouinard said:
Is outside exhausting of fines visibly noticeable and or louder? It's louder outside, :D quieter inside.
Does it create issues that are difficult or costly to deal with when heating with wood and cooling by AC?
Yes, you will lose your cooled/heated air...it will go right outside. You could have both, just another wye, and 2 blast gates on the exhaust, one side going to the filters, the other outside for use when not needing to heat or cool. But that may be more work than it makes sense. Your best bet with filters is to mount the cyclone in an insulated closet, have the cyclone mounted on a separate frame, ie: not mounted to the walls, and have a baffled air return back to the shop to further reduce noise. (see post 16 on this thread)
Does it make more sense to have one large collector with plumbing to all machines or add a couple little portable units for some of the smaller machines?
Personally, I think the one large one will move more air than multiple small ones, as long as the piping is not done incorrectly. Wile there isn't just one or two right ways to do the ducts, there are lots of wrong ways that will starve the ability of the system to move air.
As close to dust-free as I can get is my goal. If budget needs to expand then that could be possible.
I find that all of the dust I still get is due to poorly designed hoods that I have yet to correct, and using the jig saw and drill without a down draft station to collect the debris. Hopefully I'll have time toward the end of this year to get those built.

Any and all feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dan

Hope this helps!! Jim.

[John Lanciani]

Hi Dan,

My shop is a similar size and with much of the same equipment. I just recently upgraded to an Oneida V3000 and 6 inch duct and I spent just under your budget to do it. I'm only about an hour away from you, so if you'd like to drive down and take a peak, just send me a PM and we can get together.

John

[Bob Wingard]

Add me to the list of VERY satisfied ClearVUE owners. It is a bit of a kit form, but, it allowed me to really customize my installation far beyond what I could have done with most any other unit. I installed the blower/cyclone in the attic, along with a huge plenum box for the filters, and the only thing you see in the shop is the collection barrel and the duct work, I LOVE IT !! !! !!

If you vent to the outside .. in "nice" weather you'll be fine .. if you are running any kind of heat or A.C. you will never keep up with the volume of air you are pumping outside. A great approach (in my opinion) would be to build a diverter setup with a dual acting slide gate that would divert to the filters in one position, and outside in the other. It does make a pretty noticeable roar, so you'd need to considerate of that if your neighbors are fairly close. You will get a bit better performance with venting outside, but when you're sucking 1800cfm through a 6" pipe .. it's pretty impressive.

[Paul Wunder]

Dan,

One more point to consider, because that will drive the size and cost of your d/c system. If by "dust collection" you mean "I don't want to see visible dust" then a two horsepower Grizzly or Oneida cyclone will do. If. however, you want to eliminate the smallest particles of dust from reaching your lungs and nasal passages then that raises the ante. Bill Pentz recommends much higher cfm and more powerful fan curves than the norm because he is trying to prevent the dust from reaching your body and possibly causing medical damage. I would advise reading some of Bill Pentz's website for more info.

As a bottom line, to provide the required air flow to achieve "medical" dust collection you will most likely need to consider at least a 3 hp Grizzley or a 3 hp Dust Gorilla from Oneida (their V series have lower specs). When I compared the fan curves for the above 3 hp machines against the Clear Vue and did a cost comparison, it was a no brainer. I bought the Clear Vue.

[Steve Milito]

Dan,


As a bottom line, to provide the required air flow to achieve "medical" dust collection you will most likely need to consider at least a 3 hp Grizzley or a 3 hp Dust Gorilla from Oneida (their V series have lower specs).

I plotted the V3000 vs the 3 HP Gorilla. There's about a 10% difference, which is expected since the impeller is about 10% smaller.

[glenn bradley]

Hi Dan,

My shop is a similar size and with much of the same equipment. I just recently upgraded to an Oneida V3000 and 6 inch duct and I spent just under your budget to do it. I'm only about an hour away from you, so if you'd like to drive down and take a peak, just send me a PM and we can get together.

John

Now there is an offer that is hard to beat. Ya gotta love the forum.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Now there is an offer that is hard to beat. Ya gotta love the forum.

NO KIDDING!! Class act, John L.

Dan - Your goal of "dust free shop" is the holy grail people pursue. More practical is "how little dust can I get for the budget I want to spend?" - which is kinda where you went in your second post. Just trying to manage your expectations a bit.

There is a friendly back-and-forth on this one, but I have a 2-stage/cyclone and would never consider a single stage. I like using a floor sweep too much to collect junk - single-stage impellor at grave risk with me on the throttle.

I have an oversize (24" dia x 72" tall) 5 micron filter bag. It lets you move a lot of air, but the 5 micron level means fine dust escapes. Someday, I would like to upgrade to Wynn filters, but talking with him, the tab is about $500 to handle the same volume, etc. so I'll have to wait.

In your budget - don't know about your access to 240v power - you'll want to keep that in mind. Suspect from your equipment list you have that in place, but thought I'd mention it.

Also - if you figure out how to collect all, or even nearly all, of the dust from your panel saw and your RAS then you don't need to work in the shop at all - bottle it, sell it, retire . After, of course, you give the secret to your friendly fellow SMC folks. We won't tell anyone else. :D

Good luck. At a young 48, you weren't actually expecting any sympathy, I hope.;)

[Paul Wunder]

I plotted the V3000 vs the 3 HP Gorilla. There's about a 10% difference, which is expected since the impeller is about 10% smaller.


There is a significant difference between the output of a 3 hp V-3000 series and a Gorilla 3hp unit:

The fan curve on the Gorilla is measured at the 7" inlet according to Oneida, and they publish a full fan curve on their website. Typical output is 800 cfm at 10.0" static pressure.

The V-3000 is not accompanied by a fan curve created using the same methodology. Using a 4" pipe Oneida claims 840 cfm at 7.4" of static pressure. The cfm may be close but at a reduction of about 25% in pressure levels. Oneida does not even show a full fan curve at a consistent pipe size on their web site for this model. using a 6" pipe, they show 1285 cfm at 3.0" of static pressure.

Both Grizzly and ClearVue publish full fan curves using a consistent methodology for their units as is the standard practice.

[Paul McGaha]

Dan,

I think there has been a lot of good information in this thread so far.

A couple of points I would add is be careful with your piping layout in terms of both the pipe size and the layout, This will probably mean no piping under 5" and as few turns in the piping as possible.

Also watch out for Size of the Collector. Last month I completed the installation of a 2 HP Dust Gorilla from Oneida. The dust collector was sized for my shop and equipment by Oneida. The system does work well. If I had to do it again though an upgrade to a 3 HP was only about a $100 and gave a little more CFM. An upgrade to a 5 HP Dust Gorilla would have been about $300 and a lot more CFM. If I had to do it again, Even though the 2 HP system works well, I would have upgraded to at least a 3 HP collector and maybe all the way to a 5 HP.

My total system costs was about $2500 but that inculded a few extras like all spiral duct, all heavy duty fittings, etc.

Good luck with your decisions and the installation. It is good to have good dust collection.

PHM

[Dan Chouinard]

Was in my dusty shop until 8:20 tonight to complete current project so we can leave in the morning for a week of camping. Exhausted but will try to reply...

Outside exhaust does not sound practical for my situation. Neighbors might complain and although my parents property is zoned commercial they would rather not get the town involved. Is a one man woodworking shop commercial or industrial?

John, I just may take you up on that offer for a show and tell at your shop when we get back to town. Now if I can just find a craiglist deal down your way I can kill two birds....

Bob, the shop attic is more of a crawl space but perhaps the storage shed attached to the rear of the shop could be utilized? Would think some sound isolation of some sort would have to be done to keep peace with the neighbors.

Paul, somewhere between visable and medical dust collection seams to be a reasonable goal. Its strange how environmental conditions effect people differently. I seem to have rather low tolerance for dust and odors in general. My dad on the other hand would work in clouds of dust and have no consequences. Cant even imagine the gallons of kerosene, paint thinner and other various nasty liquids have soaked into him over the years. Never mind all the rat poisons, insecticides, horse hair plaster dust... Dude is 86 years old and could still kick my but up and down the street. He still rides his bicycle 50 miles a week and swims 2 1/4 miles a week. Go figure.

No sympathy please Kent. Was hoping for a group hug though. Whats a little dust between friends?

Dan

[Paul Wunder]

Dan,

Last month's Wood magazine had a pretty good article on dust control, methods, how to size, etc. They include a table which will help you size your system and your ductwork. They also use cfm requirement numbers by machine that are higher than Oneida would recommend but lower than Bill Pentz would use (kind of between good dust collection and medical collection).

When figuring your machines you may want to consider collecting dust from the top of your table saw as well as from below. Same with a router table. This is the type of situation that will push you into higher hp and cfms, but it does wonders for keeping your shop and lungs clean.

Paul

[Steve Milito]

At 3" of water the V3000 is 1285 CFM and the Gorilla is ~1450 CFM. (1450-1285)/1450 is ~ 11.4%.

Per my conversation with Oneida, The V3000 has a 13.5" impeller, and the Gorilla is 14.25". Which is a 10% difference in fan area.

FWIW: using the spreadsheet on the Pentz web site gives static pressures much higher than other methods. Hard to say which method is incorrect.


There is a significant difference between the output of a 3 hp V-3000 series and a Gorilla 3hp unit:

The fan curve on the Gorilla is measured at the 7" inlet according to Oneida, and they publish a full fan curve on their website. Typical output is 800 cfm at 10.0" static pressure.

The V-3000 is not accompanied by a fan curve created using the same methodology. Using a 4" pipe Oneida claims 840 cfm at 7.4" of static pressure. The cfm may be close but at a reduction of about 25% in pressure levels. Oneida does not even show a full fan curve at a consistent pipe size on their web site for this model. using a 6" pipe, they show 1285 cfm at 3.0" of static pressure.

Both Grizzly and ClearVue publish full fan curves using a consistent methodology for their units as is the standard practice.

[Paul Wunder]

[QUOTE=Steve Milito;1464889]At 3" of water the V3000 is 1285 CFM and the Gorilla is ~1450 CFM. (1450-1285)/1450 is ~ 11.4%.

Per my conversation with Oneida, The V3000 has a 13.5" impeller, and the Gorilla is 14.25". Which is a 10% difference in fan area.

Steve,

We are both correct, I believe, but some explanation is in order.

Your comparison numbers at 3.0" of static pressure are correct with about a 10% difference. However cyclone systems do not run at 3.0"; they typically run at 7" and above. It is there where the fall off in performance approaches 25%. At higher static pressures the V-3000 can't keep up with the Dust Gorilla. That's why I used the higher numbers for comparison.

I am not trying to disparage either machine just pointing out the differences. At my point of purchase, I looked at the Dust Gorrilla, the V-3000 and bought the ClearVue.

[Steve Milito]

[QUOTE=Steve Milito;1464889]At 3" of water the V3000 is 1285 CFM and the Gorilla is ~1450 CFM. (1450-1285)/1450 is ~ 11.4%.

Per my conversation with Oneida, The V3000 has a 13.5" impeller, and the Gorilla is 14.25". Which is a 10% difference in fan area.

Steve,

We are both correct, I believe, but some explanation is in order.

Your comparison numbers at 3.0" of static pressure are correct with about a 10% difference. However cyclone systems do not run at 3.0"; they typically run at 7" and above. It is there where the fall off in performance approaches 25%. At higher static pressures the V-3000 can't keep up with the Dust Gorilla. That's why I used the higher numbers for comparison.

I am not trying to disparage either machine just pointing out the differences. At my point of purchase, I looked at the Dust Gorrilla, the V-3000 and bought the ClearVue.

I'm trying to sort it out myself, but 10" of H20 is on the edge of the operation region of the V3000. I think that the Pentz site over estimates static pressure loss. I get about 2 inches of water difference when I do it by hand, which moves the operational point from outside of the operational region of the V3000 to well within it. This biggest air flow killers are WYEs and elbows. I think a sp of 8" H20 is a reasonable assumption for a home shop and if your much above that you may want to look at the duct work design.
FWIW: The Oneida salesperson has repeatedly insisted that the V3000 will provide 800+ CFM with 6" duct in a three car garage. But then again, he is trying to make a sale. :D

[Dan Chouinard]

Finally have enough work lined up (3 maybe 4 kitchens!) to buy dust collection system.

PSI 3.5HP TEMPEST cyclone - $1125
Oneida V3000 cyclone - $1195
Clear Vue 1800 - $1345

Which would you buy?

Happy Thanksgiving to all you fine Creekers.
Go Pats!

[Jim O'Dell]

Dan, I can't answer that specifically, because when I was researching for my purchase, neither the Gorilla nor the V3000 were available. I shopped between the Oneida 3 hp commercial, the newly introduced first generation Grizzly, and the Clear Vue. I glanced at the PSI unit, but it quickly fell off the page. At the time, the CV unit clearly (pun intended :D ) offered more for the money, and it followed the Pentz parameters of design, which I still feel offers the best separation. It's a 5 hp Leeson motor compared to less power on the others you are considering. I decided to exhaust outside, so filters didn't come into the equation for me, and the price savings helped too. In the end, my top three were the Clear Vue, the Grizzly, then the Oneida, in that order. Unit price was crucial in the decision as well.
I would recommend going with a full size cyclone instead of the shortened ones, which I believe the V3000 is, unless you have an issue with height that a full cyclone won't work under, and can't find a way to make modifications so that it will work. When you make compromises for one thing, it usually messes with something else. I wouldn't want that to be separation of small particles.
Oh, and wait until you start thinking about bandsaws!!! You'll just think this was a tough one!!! :D:D:D:D Jim.

[Aaron Montgomery]

I just ordered a V3000 from Oneida. (Hasn't shipped) I also had ceiling height issues that limited the cyclones that would fit. They recommended either the V3000 or V5000. As much as I'm inclined to buy more than I need, I made the decision to go with the V3000. Why? Because it was $265 cheaper, the V5000 was 50% louder and the delta CFM increase at 4" of water was < 5%. Oneida was very helpful and did send me a fan curve for the V3000. I'm sure they'd be willing to send it to anyone that requested it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (it happens), but it seems really difficult to compare some of these fan curves and make them applicable to our applications. For instance, the V3000 has a 6" inlet, where the V5000 has a 8" inlet. For a given static pressure, the V5000 (or Gorilla, 441, etc) is going to move considerably more air through an 8" pipe than a 6" pipe. My guess is that the fan curve is done using 8" pipe. For each of the Gorillas or Tempests or CVs, if they are all installed with 6" duct work (which I believe that most of us are using), then I wouldn't expect there to be significant difference in their performance. (let's say within a few 100 CFM of each other) I would expect the larger machines are going to do much better as the static pressure increases for longer runs.

I also recall reading that although the Gorilla series does move as much as the V series, the V series has better separation. I believe that this was due to the inlet being in the cone verses the Gorilla that has the inlet above the cone. That's not to say that the Gorilla has bad separation, just that the V series has improved on it.

[Dan Chouinard]

The smaller footprint of the clearvue is very appealing for my little shop. Not familiar with 230 volts though. Is this much of an issue?