Walnut Vase Ready For Steam

[John Hart]

Well...I got the steamer box all set up and ran a test run yesterday. Everything worked good, and I'll post those results in the steamer thread.

But tonight, I turned a walnut vase that I will steam tomorrow morning. I'd like to do it tonight...but I gets sleepy this time of day.

Anyway...here it is.
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It's 6" Tall by 3.5" Diameter. Not very big...but good for the test. It also has a crack, which I'm glad about...so we can see how the steam will affect cracks.

Oh...and I had visitors tonight
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These pheasants have adopted us. They keep the lawn free of fleas and ticks and just plain look nice. They don't seem to be afraid of us. Kinda cool.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Nice looking vase John! Sure hope the steam process works out for you!

See a lot of different pets that folks have - this is a first! I suppose by now the girls have them named... Pretty cool to have them walking around!

[Cathy Schaewe]

Oh...and I had visitors tonight
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These pheasants have adopted us. They keep the lawn free of fleas and ticks and just plain look nice. They don't seem to be afraid of us. Kinda cool.

I have a bird dog, who thinks she needs more practice. Can she come visit?

[David E Keller]

Looking forward to the testing... Looks like the local wildlife is sharing my interest in what happens in that shop of yours.

Nice new photo of you as well.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Waiting to see how the test turn out John. Hope it works for ya. Nice looking Pheasant.

[Paul Douglass]

Those pheasant feather sure make nice pens.... Maybe they will shed some for you.

[Roger Chandler]

feather pens and Pheasant under glass.....uummmm! :D Both are winners, and the latter is tasty too......:D;)

The turning is really great!

[brian watts]

nice vase...and the bird is to cool to have walking around ..

[John Hart]

Thanks everyone....Well..Here we are at morning. I got the steamer fired up and the vase is in the box cookin'. The box came up to full steam about 30 minutes ago, and I figure I'll let it go for another 30...then we'll see!!:)
I also put a burl vase mouth in there...just to try it out. I don't expect much...but we don't know until we try eh? ;)

Cathy...I fear that these pheasants won't be much good for practice for your puppy. They might walk up to him and groom him...but I doubt they would behave in a manner that is consistent with a regular 'ol bird in the field. They have no problem walking right up to our German Shepherd.:rolleyes:

I am kinda hoping that these birds will shed some feathers though. How often do they molt?

[Michelle Rich]

I will be interested to see & hear of your experiment..thanks for sharing the birds..just grand

[John Keeton]

Nice work on the vase, Hart, and I am looking forward to the report on the steaming project!

Nice new photo of you as well.David, the pic isn't of John. He scanned that in from the last LL Bean catalogue - it is a pic of one of the male models!;)

[John Hart]

Okie Dokie...well...I think I would have been surprised if this didn't fail....So I guess I'm not surprised.
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So, I left it in the steamer for over an hour. The temperature reached 200F and it was quite steamy.

When I pulled the vase out of the box, my finger pressure was enough to move the walnut, and I felt that things were going pretty good. I put the vase in the fixture and pressed on the mouth with a steel bar...leveraging the bar from the inside of the vase...with the mouth rim as the fulcrum. It moved ok and I kept applying pressure...then it cracked.

The other crack is simply me trying it in another spot a minute later...which was stupid because it had already cooled down. But no matter. I think I learned some valuable lessons here.

1. When the piece first comes out of the steamer...you can bend it with your hands.
2. Your working time is less than 30 seconds
3. Over-zealous pressure with fixtures will cause failure
4. The thickness of the rim might be a key variable. I think I'll go a tad thinner next time.

So...I guess I have to turn another vase and try it again. This one...I figure I can fill in the cracks...sand it and finish it and keep it for a spouted pencil holder or something.:)

[John Keeton]

John, sorry this one didn't work, but at least you did gain some knowledge on the process. I am betting thinner would work better. Also, wonder if there is some "lubricant" that would make the fibers more "plastic." Maybe adding some glycerin to the steam? It is often used when doing caning to aid in bending without breaking.

Just a thought.

[John Hart]

Also, wonder if there is some "lubricant" that would make the fibers more "plastic." Maybe adding some glycerin to the steam? It is often used when doing caning to aid in bending without breaking....

Really? That sounds like a great idea John!! I wonder where you find steaming glycerin? Or is it just something in the food aisle at wallyworld?....or perhaps LL Bean?:)

[John Keeton]

John, here (http://www.franksupply.com/caning/hand-caning.html) is one source, but I imagine there are others - maybe a Michael's or similar craft store. It is a food additive and used for various pharmacutical purposes, so maybe a health food store or drug store??

It mixes easily with water, so I would just add it to the water used for the steaming.

[John Keeton]

John, did a little more searching, and looks like Wal-Mart has a 6 oz. bottle in the skin care department.

[John Hart]

Cool..Thanks John. I'll run to the drugstore. Any idea how much per gallon?. My steamer holds a gallon and uses about half of that during the process.

[John Keeton]

It doesn't take much. In caning, one tea-spoon per gallon of water, but in this situation, I would probably start heavier than that as you are wanting a great deal of flexibility.

[John Keeton]

John, apparently there are some research studies on this application. I ran into this (http://www.springerlink.com/content/l87g690208137156/) which would seem to suggest a pre-soak of the piece in the glycerin water prior to steaming.

Also, found this quote in a forum about steam bending -

"I recently made some bent wood chairs out of cherry and tiger maple as well as some birdseye. All of this wood was kiln dried. I simply steamed the wood 1 1/2 thick for about 2 hours. Using an old seat weaver's trick, I added a bottle of glycerin to my water. Glycerin is an immoliant which helps something retain moisture. It works great, and has no affect on finishing or anything. It simply wets the wood better and deeper, and slows the drying somewhat but not much. It really helps the wood become pliable."

[Bill Neff]

John,

There was a New Yankee Workshop episode where he steamed wood (for a chair back I think). I seem to remember him saying that they had less than a minute to get the wood out of the steamer and placed on the forming jig. So you're not wrong on the time to have before the wood cools.

Bill

[David E Keller]

David, the pic isn't of John. He scanned that in from the last LL Bean catalogue - it is a pic of one of the male models!;)

Wow, LL Bean has really dropped their standards for male models.:eek::D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious lowering of general standards at L.L. Bean. I have shopped there for decades but will stop now.:rolleyes:

[Harvey Ghesser]

Did someone say "German Shepherd?"

[David DeCristoforo]

Personally, I'd think about leaving the vase be and steaming the pheasants...

[John Hart]

Did someone say "German Shepherd?"

WOOF!!
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Ok...I ran down to LL Bean....er...I mean WallyWorld...to get some deck stain and looked in the pharmaceutical dept. Found a bottle of Glycerin for $3.00.
So...I gotta do some deck stuff, then I'll turn another piece and give it a try.

Thanks for all the help today!!! I have new life! :)

[John Hart]

Personally, I'd think about leaving the vase be and steaming the pheasants...

You wouldn't believe how tempting that is sometimes/;)

[Paul Maue]

John

Doesn't Johanne Michelson do something similar when he is making is hats. The wood is very green "wet" when it is turned and then placed in a jig under compression and allowed to dry.
Why not try this? After turning a green vase, Place it and the jig in the steam at the same time. But instead of using a bar to force the top into the vase, use a large SPRING to apply constant pressure to mold the rim into the shape that you want. After an hour or more in the steamer, just shut it off and allow it to cool. Leave the vase in the jig several days to dry out and retain its shape. Also one critcal factor to consider is grain orientation when the vase is placed in the jig. A green vessel tend to warp along the short grain of the wood, not the long grain.

Paul

[John Hart]

Thanks Paul. Ya know...I have been considering the "jig in the steamer" option as a last resort. The reason I have been avoiding it, is because of the complexity of the tooling....and my general laziness.:o
I always figured that that method was sort of a guarantee, if everything else failed.

I like the idea of just putting a piece of wood in the steamer and then forming it. Dunno...maybe I'm just quirky.

I am very concerned about grain orientation. It seems that the shape of the spout is going to tug on every direction no matter where I put it...and I'm not sure which part of the lip has the best chance of success.

[John Hart]

Well...after reading the research that John Keeton provided, I ran into a quandry. So to solve it, I decided to turn two vase mouths out of the same piece of cherry. One will just go into the steamer with glycerin mixed with the water.

The other mouth, I will pre-soak in a hot water/glycerin bath...then steam it with the glycerin in the steamer.

I got the two mouths turned an hour ago
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And put one in the steamer. It came up to steam about 20 minutes ago and I'll let it go for over an hour. All tests so far have the steamer hitting 200 degrees F after 50-60 minutes. If the research is correct, I stand my best chance of good pliability if I can get it above 212F....but then...that's what the pre-soak is all about. So anyway...we'll see.
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I gotta go pick up a drum sander for the deck in an hour...so I'm really juggling projects today. :rolleyes:

[Wally Dickerman]

Okay John,,,,I guess that I'm out in left field here but I'd really like to know what you were trying to accomplish with the steaming and bending. What was the final form to be?

Years ago I watched Del Stubbs turning wet madrone bowls very thin. He used a bucket of water and a sponge to keep the wood very wet so that it was quite pliable and didn't crack. He ended up with some interesting shapes. I think that madrone is a very good to work with this way.

I tried to do what Del did but I just let the wood do what it wanted to do. I ended up a bowl that very much resembled a hospital bed pan. I wish that I had kept the piece but a guy offered me enough money that I parted with it. He probably put it on a shelf and called it a work of art. To me it was just an ugly experiment. BTW, when you work that way with madrone it wrinles up like old leather that has been wet.

Wally

[John Hart]

Okay John,,,,I guess that I'm out in left field here but I'd really like to know what you were trying to accomplish with the steaming and bending. What was the final form to be? Wally

Hi Wally. sorry..this is my fault. I split off from my original thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=143124

The steaming idea has several facets...but what I'm doing here is trying to create a spout shape on a vase mouth. Not a real complex shape, but it seems to not want to do what I want.

My most recent attempt...as stated above..resulted in me breaking the turning....just with finger pressure. I don't know if it is because of the glycerin....or that I am a neanderthal.

I'm open to any suggestions you or anyone else might have Wally. These experiments are designed, not only to acheive the spout...but for everyone to learn a little bit through my trial and error.

[neil mackay]

1. When the piece first comes out of the steamer...you can bend it with your hands.
2. Your working time is less than 30 seconds
3. Over-zealous pressure with fixtures will cause failure
4. The thickness of the rim might be a key variable. I think I'll go a tad thinner next time.
The steaming process was a standard method of fitting ribs to wooden boats. These days its still done but not as frequent as it used to be.
Given the right timber I have seen ribs with knots tied in them as a demo. The timber becomes extremely plastic and great to work with and as you have found time is limited.

Search the AAW forum for canberra, thread 7425

Also, these links
http://www.wcha.org/tidbits/steamfaq.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC4L3v2eUs0

these might be helpful for some back ground info

[Jeff Nicol]

John, I think you could get it done in a simpler fashion by using a hot pipe type system that could be shaped by welding the pipe into a shape that fits the need of your spout. Once the vase has been turned you will need to soak the rim good and then using the hot pipe bending apparatus you will be able to concentrate the heat directly on the potion of the lip to be bent. I think it would work if the thickness of the turned object is thin enough. In the latest issue of the American Woodworker it has an article on a hot pipe bender and its use. Can't hurt to try!

More things to give a crack at!

Jeff

[Leo Van Der Loo]

John like I mentioned before the wood does have to be at the water boiling temperature at least for the wood fibers to slide by each other, as the lignin is only fluid at that temperature, and yes thinner is better ;-))

[Karl Card]

Those pheasant feather sure make nice pens.... Maybe they will shed some for you.


exactly what i was thinking.

[John Hart]

I think I'm going to take the day off from steaming today....to organize my thoughts. (when I get too close to a problem...I think poorly)

All these ideas are good ones...and as Leo points out...I have yet to achieve the proper temperature. While the spout is an initial milestone objective...it is not the whole objective....Hmmm...I gotta think a bit.

Thanks again all.

[Heath Brandenburg]

Really? That sounds like a great idea John!! I wonder where you find steaming glycerin? Or is it just something in the food aisle at wallyworld?....or perhaps LL Bean?:)

You might consider looking into "fog juice" which is used in theatrical fog machines. It is typically either glycerin or glycol based. I'm no chemist, so I can't tell you what the differences are between them.