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View Full Version : 2" hole Neander style - help



John Schreiber
07-09-2010, 4:49 PM
I'm making a log bench for a friend from a tree that was cut down on their property earlier this spring. I made up legs with 2" round tenons from some branches and I figured I'd drill 2" holes with an adjustable bit. Unfortunately, even after sharpening it, I can't spin it in my 8" sweep brace.

So, using some scrap aluminum and construction lumber, I made up a handle like I've seen on the wall at Cracker Barrel. I don't know what they are called, but it has a 20" sweep.

155386

This works, but it is extremely slow going and requires that I put a fair amount of body weight behind it as I turn.

I know one possibility is to buy a 12" or 14" sweep brace, but that costs money. Another is to buy a 2" Forstner bit and use an electric drill, but that costs money too and I was looking forward to doing this all Neander.

Any ideas?

James Taglienti
07-09-2010, 6:16 PM
i have never drilled such a hole bu i've a couple of suggestions.

you could get a beater chisel at 2" or maybe a bit smaller and chop in the hole a bunch of times, in the shape of an asterisk *. a lot of the resistance comes from the planing action of that bit. chopping in the hole gives the wood a place to break, and lends it a bit of a chipping action. it's kind of the same principle as cutting a hinge mortise.

I'd also consider drilling a number of smaller holes inside the range of the larger hole so it looks like the cylinder of a revolver handgun, but leave that meat in the middle. that will let the little screw tip feed into something, and the bit will have less work to do.

sometimes the nicker on those bits is obscenely long and the screw draws it very far into the wood before the actual bit starts cutting. that could be causing friction. i wouldnt know how to remedy that but i might put some wax on it.

hope that helps.

Ted Calver
07-09-2010, 7:13 PM
2" hole saw and a chisel??

Jeremy Dorn
07-09-2010, 7:46 PM
Honestly the easiest answer going neander is simply to go out and find yourself that 12 or 14" brace, they wont cost you more than 15-20 bucks and you'll get a lifetime of use out of em.

But, if spending money is not an option, do you by chance happen to be a weight lifter? If so you might go find yourself a few 25 LB or higher plates off your weight rack and lay them on the top of your man made 20" sweep handle. This would likely give you an added help with the amt of downforce needed to make the bit work.

it sounds as though your lead screw on your adjust-a-bit might be dull though, it really should be pulling the bit through the wood with little actual downforce required (assuming the cutitng edge of the bit is sharp of course)

JD

Jim Koepke
07-10-2010, 12:12 AM
There may be a few things happening here.

To try to get a better feel for this, a journey was taken out to the shop. Lately, there has been so much work in the greenhouse, garden and yard that not much time has been spent in the wood shop. Looking at my expansion bit indicates it is a bit of wishful thinking to drill a large hole with one of those. The bar has a spur on it, but it does not look like the edge of the bar can be sharpened. The central part does have an edge that can be sharpened, but that only goes out to about 3/4". My expansion bit cuts a maximum hole size of 1-3/4".

My largest standard bit is a #22 or 1-3/8". I gave this a try in my 8" brace. Only one of the lips was cutting and that made it hard to turn. After a few minutes of sharpening, the lips were close to evened out and it worked much better and was easier to turn with both lips sharing the work.

This gave me the impression that the expansion bit might be much tougher to turn with just one spur and only one lip cutting the hole. Also, the expansion bar looks like it is not really made to cut as much as it is there to extend the spur and help clear the wood as it is broken out.

If the screw is small, that may be why it strips out and requires some extra weight to get it to cut. My standard bit has a fairly big lead screw and it is my practice to drill a small pilot hole for the bigger bits to keep them from causing the work to split.

Derek Cohen
07-10-2010, 1:46 AM
Make the tenons narrower...... say 1" diameter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Steve Thomas
07-10-2010, 2:06 AM
^ Aussie's, always looking for the easy way out!

Jim Koepke
07-10-2010, 3:38 AM
Make the tenons narrower...... say 1" diameter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That would be my way of doing it also.

Unless there is a need for a larger diameter.

jim

Eric Brown
07-10-2010, 4:40 AM
If the holes are close to the edge you could bore a smaller hole and then use a turning saw followed by a half-round rasp.

Eric

Randy Bonella
07-10-2010, 11:05 AM
I'll have a similar problem in about 1 week when my wood vise screw arrives from Lake Eire Toolworks. I'll need to bore a 2.5" hole through a 5.75" thick leg. Preference is do it the Neander way but will resort to a large Forstner bit if necessary.

I'm keeping my eye on this thread and will be doing some research on best method. So far the best comment I've heard is bore many smaller holes around the perimeter saw and then rasp out the edges until smooth.

There has to be a way, I'm thinking boat builders would need to bore some pretty sizable holes.... hummm....

Randy...

David Keller NC
07-10-2010, 12:09 PM
I'm making a log bench for a friend from a tree that was cut down on their property earlier this spring. I made up legs with 2" round tenons from some branches and I figured I'd drill 2" holes with an adjustable bit. Unfortunately, even after sharpening it, I can't spin it in my 8" sweep brace.

So, using some scrap aluminum and construction lumber, I made up a handle like I've seen on the wall at Cracker Barrel. I don't know what they are called, but it has a 20" sweep.

155386

This works, but it is extremely slow going and requires that I put a fair amount of body weight behind it as I turn.

I know one possibility is to buy a 12" or 14" sweep brace, but that costs money. Another is to buy a 2" Forstner bit and use an electric drill, but that costs money too and I was looking forward to doing this all Neander.

Any ideas?

Well, this is sort of outside your original design parameters, but I'd consider squaring up the tenons on the legs with a spokeshave/chisel, and chopping square mortises in the benchtop. You can saw a kerf down the middle of the squared tenons on the legs, and wedge it from the top. The action of the wedge will make a precise fit unnecessary.

John Schreiber
07-10-2010, 12:28 PM
. . .you could get a beater chisel at 2" or maybe a bit smaller and chop in the hole a bunch of times, . . . also consider drilling a number of smaller holes inside the range of the larger hole so it looks like the cylinder of a revolver handgun, but leave that meat in the middle. that will let the little screw tip feed into something, . . .
That was worth a try and I tried a couple of variations, but the uneven surface kept the lead screw from biting in properly and since the bit is asymmetric it wouldn't keep going straight.

Honestly the easiest answer going neander is simply to go out and find yourself that 12 or 14" brace, they wont cost you more than 15-20 bucks and you'll get a lifetime of use out of em.
You are right. A bigger brace and a regular auger bit in a 1 1/2 or 2" size is probably the real solution. I'll watch for what I can find at a price I can afford.

. . . it sounds as though your lead screw on your adjust-a-bit might be dull though . . .
The lead screw is sharp, but it's too fine to get traction pulling that big inefficient cutter.

. . . .Looking at my expansion bit indicates it is a bit of wishful thinking to drill a large hole with one of those. . .
I think this is the main problem. It's a multipurpose tool which doesn't do anything well. An achievement in marketing instead of craftsmanship.

. . .This gave me the impression that the expansion bit might be much tougher to turn with just one spur and only one lip cutting the hole. Also, the expansion bar looks like it is not really made to cut as much as it is there to extend the spur and help clear the wood as it is broken out. . . . Looking at it critically, I can see a bunch of reasons why it won't work well. The head itself is over 3/4" wide so chip clearance is a problem. Having just one blade makes it want to turn asymmetrically and pull against the lead screw. The extension blade has to be shaped like a snow plow so even if the edge is sharp, the geometry makes it hard work. There's a gap between the extension blade and the blade on the body where chips get caught. The nicker is much bigger than it needs to be and causes extra friction.

I have a 1" auger bit and I chucked that up in the 8" sweep brace and had true neander joy. It happily pulled itself through the wood.

Make the tenons narrower...... say 1" diameter. . . .
Smart guy! If I can't get the appropriate tools, I'll do exactly this. My gut feeling is that 1" would not be strong enough to support the log bench, but if need be, I could put in some 3/8" all-thread for reinforcement.

John Schreiber
07-10-2010, 12:48 PM
Well, this is sort of outside your original design parameters, but I'd consider squaring up the tenons on the legs with a spokeshave/chisel, and chopping square mortises in the benchtop. You can saw a kerf down the middle of the squared tenons on the legs, and wedge it from the top. The action of the wedge will make a precise fit unnecessary.
That's got possibilities. Since this will be an outside bench, I had thought that it would be best if I can keep from putting any holes in the top so that water wouldn't drain into the tenons and cause shrink/expansion rotting problems. The log itself is greener than the legs, so I am hoping that just making them a tight fit will cause the log to shrink onto the legs.

Jim Koepke
07-10-2010, 12:52 PM
Do you have any gouges?

I have cut large roundish holes using gouges.

jim

Joel Goodman
07-10-2010, 6:21 PM
Sandy Moss has a 12" Stanley 923 brace listed for $35.

Jim Koepke
07-11-2010, 11:23 PM
Today my curiosity started getting the best of me concerning Russell Jennings auger bits and their designations.

One of the places I looked for a clue was an old Adel's 4 volume set for the carpenter.

The information to fulfill my quest was not found, but there was an illustration of brass plugs for use on auger bits when a small hole had to be drilled to a larger size. For example, a 1" hole needing to be enlarged would have the brass plug of 1" size screwed onto the lead screw of the larger bit and then provide a guide for the larger bit.

Maybe a wooden dowel could be used in this way and a hole can be bored with your largest auger to match the dowel and then follow up with the expansion bit.

jim

Joel Goodman
07-12-2010, 1:44 AM
For example, a 1" hole needing to be enlarged would have the brass plug of 1" size screwed onto the lead screw of the larger bit and then provide a guide for the larger bit.

Maybe a wooden dowel could be used in this way and a hole can be bored with your largest auger to match the dowel and then follow up with the expansion bit.

jim

Jim,

I'm going to file this away -- it's one of those old ideas I know I will need one day!

Eric Brown
07-12-2010, 2:09 AM
Go to page 695 for another description of Jims idea.


http://books.google.com/books?id=8dwOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA688&lpg=PA688&dq=ford+auger+bit&source=bl&ots=dxX_YKnO2e&sig=_Qq8GXrrazIstFD0QHIR2zO_tA8&hl=en&ei=KyOJS6r3FYbflAeEx6XQAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ford%20auger%20bit&f=false

Eric

Jim Koepke
07-12-2010, 3:11 AM
Looking through that catalog is a lot of fun.

Wish I could order a set of planes from them.

155596

jim

John Schreiber
07-12-2010, 11:24 AM
Go to page 695 for another description of Jims idea.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8dwOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA688&lpg=PA688&dq=ford+auger+bit&source=bl&ots=dxX_YKnO2e&sig=_Qq8GXrrazIstFD0QHIR2zO_tA8&hl=en&ei=KyOJS6r3FYbflAeEx6XQAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ford%20auger%20bit&f=false
Eric
The "Auger bit Guide" set was available for 6 cents in 1897, but doesn't seem to exist 110+ years later. (Actually, they are probably sitting around antique stores, but no one knows what they are.) I can imagine some ways to make something similar, but I'm not sure it would hold the center steady while the single blade does its cutting.

Does this sound possible? A one inch diameter dowel with a same diameter 1/8" thick aluminum cap epoxied and nailed to one end. Then the aluminum could be counter drilled so that the teeth of the lead screw would bite into it.


What a great catalog. It looks like 1897 was a good year for hand tools. They even have the "Clark's Expansive Bit" on page 703.

The letters starting on page 889 are fabulous. Shows how little things have changed and how much things have changed.

John Schreiber
07-12-2010, 11:28 AM
Do you have any gouges?
jim
I experimented with this. My only gouge has the bevel on the outside for carving and while I could waste material out of the hole, it couldn't make a smooth side. And, it's slow going of course.

I've started splitting out the surface of the the log and hope to come up with a solution to the leg holes by the time I get there.

Jim Koepke
07-12-2010, 12:14 PM
Does this sound possible? A one inch diameter dowel with a same diameter 1/8" thick aluminum cap epoxied and nailed to one end. Then the aluminum could be counter drilled so that the teeth of the lead screw would bite into it.

My first thought would to try it with just using a 1" dowel.

The hard part would be to get it as perfectly centered as possible. This might not be too hard if a small pilot hole can be drilled. If the positioning of the mortises doesn't have to be accurate to less than 1/16" it should be easy.

You may encounter a little wobble, so you may not want to cut the tenons first.

jim

John Schreiber
07-18-2010, 1:20 PM
I've been haunting the antique stores and have had more luck than I thought I would. I found a 12" sweep brace and after some work, it's very usable. I also found a 1 5/8" auger bit that will work fine.

Some questions for more experienced neanders:

1) The brace chuck has no mechanism for holding the jaws in place and to insert the drill shank, I need to hold it open with one finger, then I've got to adjust the position of the jaws a couple of times to get them to clamp tightly on the bit while I screw down the outer sleeve. Is there a spring or other parts of the mechanism missing? The top hand hold is a reddish wood, probably cocobolo and the part you turn is black. What would the black wood be?

2) The auger bit is a thing of beauty. For some reason one of the cutting surfaces hit the wood over a full turn sooner than the other. I was able to fix that with files and now it cuts smoothly. It's much longer than I need at almost 24". It is shiny steel for the screw part and part of the shaft, then the shaft is thicker, black iron for the remainder. Also. The gripping part is smaller than my other auger bits and more rounded. Is that the way it was originally made or has a longer shaft been welded on at some point?

Jim Koepke
07-18-2010, 1:38 PM
Pictures would be a big help.

As to the chuck, I am seldom afraid to take something apart. It is rare that I can not put it back together.

Of course, I do carefully evaluate the situation carefully before starting and I do know there are somethings better left alone.

Some brace jaws do not have springs. Just as many may have broken springs.

A 1-5/8" bit is a little larger than what most makers supplied as standard stock. It could be an altered tool.

Pictures always help.

jim

Jim Koepke
07-18-2010, 1:41 PM
The top hand hold is a reddish wood, probably cocobolo and the part you turn is black. What would the black wood be?


It could be the top piece was replaced or the crank handle became darkened with sweat or grease on the users hand.

jim

Floyd Mah
07-20-2010, 1:54 AM
Why persist with round tenons? Use the largest drill that you can handle and drill a pilot hole. Then chop the sides into a square mortise with a chisel. Once you have formed the walls, you can easily enlarge it to any dimension you target. That's much easier than trying to enlarge a round hole. Take the round tenons and shave them square to fit the mortise.