Were things really that much better...?

[Mitchell Andrus]

I was commenting to a friend about how year by year, a generation at a time we're getting used to the fact that we're turning this planet into a giant toilet bowl.

Spills in every ocean and sea. Oil on too many coastlines to count. Love canal. Soot in the air. Acid rain. More CO2 than nature can absorb. Chinese drywall. Formaldihide emitting emergency trailers.....

He countered with:

150 years ago - open sewers. Coal and wood heated homes. Horse manure in the streets. Lead in the paint. Polio. Black Plague.

So, was it better 150 years ago, or are things better or getting better now?
.

[David Weaver]

Aside from a moral and ethical (and even that's debatable, I guess, depending on your spin), I think things are a lot better now.

Relative purchasing power is higher, leisure time is higher, conveniences are higher, health care is better.

The only thing is we're living so well we have a lot more time to complain and more options to let problems fester or try to get someone else to take care of them rather than face them straight away ourselves. My grandparents spent a lot of their time just trying to figure out when they were going to have enough time to get everything done and still sleep and keep the wheels on the wagon (sometimes literally) and food on the table. Both of them were worn out like old tires when their clocks stopped ticking, and they knew they had it better than the generations before them.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree with David.

Also we are really one of the first generations to have large amounts of disposable income and lots of leisure time.

In addition we're far more numerous than before, and are consuming resources and polluting the world with non bio-degradable pollution at a rate that wasn't possible before.

Horse manure might not smell nice, but it doesn't kill wildlife like the oil in the gulf is doing at present.

Regards, Rod.

[Pat Germain]

Horse manure might not smell nice, but it doesn't kill wildlife like the oil in the gulf is doing at present.

But it was a huge health hazard. It spread parasites and other nasties. And before it's properly broken down, manure is toxic.

One area where I think things were better was dealing with criminals. There was a bigger problem with innocent people being accused and convicted. But the guilty were dealt with appropriately. While I've never read any official accounts, I strongly believe anyone caught doing anything sinister with a child was just shot or hanged and that was the end of it. Monsters were not paroled and allowed more victims.

And all those terrible environmental situations from 150 years ago are still going strong all over the world. I've seen it first hand. Outside North America and Europe, raw sewage is dumped into rivers and the ocean. Toxic chemicals are left to stew in large, open pools. Cars and trucks spew smoke and soot everywhere. (Yet, North America is always labelled as the environmental bad guy.)

[Michael MacDonald]

don'tcha think that our current destructive activities are on a larger scale than our past destructive activites? more people, larger scale production, trend toward disposable...

can't remember where I got this link... makes me go "hmmm".

http://www.storyofstuff.com/

watch the story of stuff video...

[Belinda Barfield]

One area where I think things were better was dealing with criminals. There was a bigger problem with innocent people being accused and convicted. But the guilty were dealt with appropriately. While I've never read any official accounts, I strongly believe anyone caught doing anything sinister with a child was just shot or hanged and that was the end of it. Monsters were not paroled and allowed more victims.

Pat has a valid point. Deal appropriately with criminals. Enforce the laws we have on the books. I believe this would make for a more civil society. What good is my leisure time if I am afraid to walk my city's streets?

Each generation seems to feel less resposible for the results of their actions. Whether using disposables, not recycling, committing sinister acts with a child, or murder, may believe that they are not at fault and that someone else will take care of the problem.

[Pat Germain]

Each generation seems to feel less resposible for the results of their actions. Whether using disposables, not recycling, committing sinister acts with a child, or murder, may believe that they are not at fault and that someone else will take care of the problem.

I agree people don't seem to want to be responsible for their own actions. But I think people were much less environmentally responsible in the recent past.

When I was a kid in the 1970's, my family used to camp in the desert. And when I say camp in the desert, I mean we'd pitch a tent in the middle of nowhere in the Mojave; no campgrounds, no roads, no nothing. While my dad was riding motorcycles with his buddies, my brothers and and I would often wander around and explore. (I'm surprised we didn't die of exposure out there.) In any direction we went, we'd find abandoned vehicles, beer cans, matresses and all sorts of trash. We once came across a very large mesquite tree where someone had hanged dozens of jackrabbits. This tree was literally "decorated" with jackrabbits that had mummified in the desert air. I found it quite disturbing, but almost nobody gave a rip about abusing animals back then.

I lived near Huntington Beach when it was peppered with soda and beer can "pop-tops". Remember those? Step on one the wrong way and it would slice your foot. (As illustrated in Jimmy Buffett's song "Margaritaville".) People also left garbage all over the beach.

I also remember people draining motor oil right into the ground or dumping it into storm drains. It seemed everywhere I looked there were old tires lying around. (As well as atop mobile homes; as is still the case.)

When I was in the Navy, as soon as the ship was outside the twelve mile limit, I'd hear, "The fantail is now open for the dumping of trash". This was quite a sight. We'd dump hundreds of plastic bags full of garbage. Sure, we'd poke a hole in them to help them sink. But they would bob on the surface in a long line for a long time. (And Soviet "Fishing Trawlers" would hook them and pull them in looking for any information.) We would also dump paint, solvents, old safes, desks chairs, you name it. We'd put so many coffee grounds into the water, the screws would churn them up and turn the water brown. I once heard someone refer to this a "sea tea".

Before I got out the Navy, we had to abide by new laws which prohibited dumping plastic and aluminum, as well as toxic chemicals. We'd have to store it onboard and then pay someone to collect it in a foreign port. (Then they would take it out to sea and dump it.) :rolleyes:

[Belinda Barfield]

Pat, you have had a much greater exposure to the world than I so I defer to you on your assessment of past and current levels of environmental responsibility. I was thinking in terms things I see everywhere every day like one use plastic water bottles, styrofoam fast food containers, paper and plastic bags, plastic utensils, aluminum cans, etc. All the conveniences of "modern" life.

[Jim Rimmer]

My wife and I vacationed in England in '95; pollution in London was so bad many people wore paper masks. You could feel the grit on your face at the end of the day and the exhaust fumes were almost overwhelming. It drove home to me how much our country had done to reduce auto emissions and it was working.

I spent several weeks in Algeria in '94 and the smell was awful. Raw sewage in the ditches. The drinking water used by the locals was brown. They would take our empty water bottles and fill them. They could only fill them about 2/3 fuul because the water would foam as it went into the bottle.

I was on a job in Mexico in late 90s and saw a truck from the chemical plant I was in drive away with about 20 drums of sloshing fluids (no lids) and go into the woods behind the plant. A few hours later the truck returned with empty barrels.

I think we are doing better now but coverage of earth unfriendly events is more widespread and detailed so we know more about it. My wife and I recycle diligently and as a result have only a couple of small bags of trash to be sent to the landfill each week and it is truly garbage - fruit peels, bones, etc.

[Pat Germain]

Pat, you have had a much greater exposure to the world than I so I defer to you on your assessment of past and current levels of environmental responsibility. I was thinking in terms things I see everywhere every day like one use plastic water bottles, styrofoam fast food containers, paper and plastic bags, plastic utensils, aluminum cans, etc. All the conveniences of "modern" life.

Oh yeah, I see your point, Belinda. There sure is a lot of that these days. I guess we've traded some kinds of waste and pollution with others. We sure have become a throw away society. Interestingly, a lot of that changed when the economy tanked in 2008. Things the thrift stores previously wouldn't even take were suddenly in high demand. People are also recycling more. Maybe the recession acted like a big pause button and gave people a chance to stop and look around at what they were doing.

Many communities are banning those plastic shopping bags. I've always hated those things. I ask for paper bags; not so much for the environment. I just like paper bags much better. But it is pretty sad to see millions of those plastic shopping bags peppering the landscape whenever we get a lot of wind in Colorado. I also have some cloth bags I use for groceries. (When I remember to bring them.)

[Belinda Barfield]

Single stream curbside recyling arrived in Savannah about two years ago.

http://www.savannahga.gov/cityweb/SavannahGaGOV.nsf/0/eca40a1180a0e944852574fd005f92ba?OpenDocument

I live in a condo complex that has a single dumpster, no recycling bins. Any items to be recycled have to be taken by me to one of several different facilities. They haven't made it easy here.

I reuse the plastic bags as garbage bags and, like Pat, I use my cloth bags when I remember to take them with me.

[Jim Finn]

[QUOTE=Michael MacDonald;1463907]don'tcha think that our current destructive activities are on a larger scale than our past destructive activites? more people, larger scale production, trend toward disposable...
Not so sure..... I remember seeing a brown haze over Milwaukee back in the 50's along with grey snow. (Coal dust on top of snow). I also know many folks, farmers espicialy, use to abandon old farm equipment and automobiles in the field or behind the barn. (The scrap drives for WW2 cleaned a lot of that up). Used to make toothpaste tubes of Lead (yuk). Dumping old automotive oil on the ground was common. Burning leaves was fun. Used to burn off acres of tall grass instead of mowing it. Lots of smoke and fire risk. Asbestos brake pads were used and they are bad for the envirioment. Leaded Gasoline also. Smoking old cars were common. Old tires were burned producing a LOT of smoke. The list goes on...

[Chuck Wintle]

I was commenting to a friend about how year by year, a generation at a time we're getting used to the fact that we're turning this planet into a giant toilet bowl.

Spills in every ocean and sea. Oil on too many coastlines to count. Love canal. Soot in the air. Acid rain. More CO2 than nature can absorb. Chinese drywall. Formaldihide emitting emergency trailers.....

He countered with:

150 years ago - open sewers. Coal and wood heated homes. Horse manure in the streets. Lead in the paint. Polio. Black Plague.

So, was it better 150 years ago, or are things better or getting better now?
.
no it was worse way back when....it's called looking back with rose colored glasses.

[Art Mulder]

Better then? Hmm



I take a hot shower most every morning, and I never use an outhouse (unless camping)
For the past sweltering week I've been coming home to blessed low humidity and cool temps in my Air conditioned house.
I get paid vacation with my job, and work far less than a 12hr day
I have time and money to fund a hobby.
I have several family members who might not be here were it not for modern medicine

Nahh, I'll take now.

[Scott T Smith]

It's much better today, and we continue to improve.

Pittsburg 40 years ago was a black, sooty city from the steel mills. Today it's a clean metropolitan area.

Chicago at the turn of the city had a coal smoke haze so bad downtown that people would move away from the city in the summer, and the breadwinner would commute into town daily.

150 years ago there was little curbside trash collection - especially in rural areas, and not much transportation infrastructure to haul it.

9 years ago I purchased part of an old farm in North Carolina (dating back to the 1800's), and proceeded to clean up 100 years worth of trash that had been discarded behind the buildings.

Are we where we want to be worldwide? Probably not - but still much better than before.

[Mitchell Andrus]

no it was worse way back when....it's called looking back with rose colored glasses.

I get a kick out of people attempting to bend our thinking by saying 'things were so much (simpler, better, easier) back then' as if we would want to go back to the days when meat wasn't inspected, vegetables wouldn't survive more than a day in a truck, doctors were allowed to re-use needles.
.

[Dan Karachio]

Technologically, environmentally, scientifically, sure, we are better off now in many ways. Socially, I am not so sure. The type of a neighborhood or community I enjoyed, or certainly my parent's enjoyed, is now very rare. People are rude and selfish. Child rearing today is pathetic - a nation of spoiled brats and parents who somehow think bending to every whiny tantrum and complaint builds character. Every time I go out I see some awful child disrupting some public space while a clueless parent stands there not knowing what to do.

I was never beaten, but I was never allowed to be a brat or rude. As a result, I knew how to entertain myself with toys and/or my friends. I often did so while my parent's socialized with relatives, friends and neighbors. In addition, I could actually carry on a conversation with an adult if he/she asked me a question.

[Rick Fisher]

Things are better today. I remember driving into LA when I was about 7 years old. I had to breathe into a pillow.. The pollution was horrible.

I was in Mexico City last year for a week. It was just like LA as a kid. Tears would form in my eyes due to the stinging pollution. It was a weird De-Ja Vu. .

The oil spill is brutal, but it will recover. Nature has a wild ability to recover.. Wildlife lives in abundance in the forests of Pripyat, where Chernobyl blew up 1/4 of a century ago.. People stay out of the area, but it team's with wild boars, birds, deer and insects..

Look at the Exxon spill in Prince William sound.. Most wildlife has recovered or significantly recovered.. An oil spill is a horrible thing and Prince William sound still has issues, but its getting better.

The USA and Canada are criticized in Europe for not cleaning up our act fast enough, and that is fair.. but we are cleaning up our act..

Health Care, working conditions, lifestyle and pretty much everything else has gotten better in my lifetime.. I hope the trend continues, and we learn from our disasters..

[Butch Edwards]

But it was a huge health hazard. It spread parasites and other nasties. And before it's properly broken down, manure is toxic.

One area where I think things were better was dealing with criminals. There was a bigger problem with innocent people being accused and convicted. But the guilty were dealt with appropriately. While I've never read any official accounts, I strongly believe anyone caught doing anything sinister with a child was just shot or hanged and that was the end of it. Monsters were not paroled and allowed more victims.


anywhere you have more population than the carrying capacity for the land( big cities) you're gonna have health hazards. the Plague started in a city, as have many past diseases that were carried by rodents/birds,etc...
If people don't think that the coming over-population of this country won't increase diseases, they'd better think again...it's a fcat of life proven from history. our Healthcare system can't handle the challenges we face today..what's gonna happen then??? The HC systems are going broke now, what's gonna happen to them when another Plague/TB outbreak/etc hits ? True, we're staying alive longer, but even then, that has it's down side, economically. Long term care costs are outrageous, and inceasing daily. Also, most living 20+ years on Social Security never paid into the system the amount of $$ to equal what they're receiving. Do you know the condition of SS at the moment??? not good.....
I agree with the swift judgement apllied to criminals in the past..that's the best way to deal with those not willing to live by the written law.

[Al Wasser]

IN my view things are better today on some fronts. However if we don't soon realize that we cannot continue to spawn more and more folks on this planet we will face some dire consequences. More and more folks want more and more things. Factories and the land tries to produce what is wanted but at a great price. We pass environmental laws to do good things for the planet but all the while ignoring the population problem as the root cause of a great majority of the problems we face.

[Greg Peterson]

Things are different. Better? Worse? Depends on a myriad of variables.

The question is to obtuse. It's like asking if the glass is half empty or half full.

The average American lives a life of creature comfort that exceeds any standard known to man prior to the current century. But creature comforts are simply that, comfort. Hospice patients are generally comfortable but would be hard pressed to say things are better now than before.

[Pat Germain]

I saw a John Stossel report awhile back. It had some facts which really surprised me. Stossel was talking to a group of parents with young children. They were all, without exception, terrified than their children would be kidnapped or abducted by strangers. Much of their lives revolved around making sure their kids were always in organized, supervised activities and protected from strangers. They were almost never permitted to just go outside and play.

Then Stossel pointed out that kids aren't any more likely to be abducted now than they were in the 1960's. The parents were skeptical, but Stossel had the facts to back it up.

The rest of the report was also interesting. He talked about many things which people fear, but are extremely rare. Yet, people believe these things happen all the time because TV news hypes it up. Shark attacks was another example.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A lot of health issues are related to the time and the people involved.

My Dad's relatives all refused to go to doctors and hospitals. A hospital was the place you go to die.

Well.....yeah......and if ya don't go to the doctor....ya' kinda might end up in the the hosptial after it's too late.

[Rick Fisher]

I agree totally with what Pat said..

Funny, I spent some time in Havana Cuba this February.. In Centro, the slums.. you see little kids running all over the place, playing hide and seek, chasing each other down ally's .. I am talking about hundreds of kids.. all day.. everywhere..

In Canada or the USA.. you would see parents standing guard.. So my buddy spoke to a lady.. asked if she was worried about her kids being out in the city all day.. She said .. " why would I worry? , its good for them.. burns off all their energy " ..

I doubt there is less creepy people in Havana than any other city.. but I know if someone committed a crime, the media would never report it .. It made me realize that we have been conditioned to be afraid..

[Greg Peterson]

Fear sells. Watch your local news and virtually all of it based on fear. I don't usually watch my local news because it is all breaking news or consumer alert or caught in the act or dirty dining.....

'Stop! If you drink that beverage you may be poisoned. Tune in tonight at 11 to find out which beverage.'

The news depart, in the good ol' days, was not a profit center. It was a commitment and taken seriously. One might even say they practiced journalism. Now it is just one big advertisement for home alarm systems, guns and bomb shelters.

So at least one thing was better in the old days.

[Tom Rick]

I was commenting to a friend about how year by year, a generation at a time we're getting used to the fact that we're turning this planet into a giant toilet bowl.

Spills in every ocean and sea. Oil on too many coastlines to count. Love canal. Soot in the air. Acid rain. More CO2 than nature can absorb. Chinese drywall. Formaldihide emitting emergency trailers.....

He countered with:

150 years ago - open sewers. Coal and wood heated homes. Horse manure in the streets. Lead in the paint. Polio. Black Plague.

So, was it better 150 years ago, or are things better or getting better now?
.

No mystery here- just do the numbers.
Each item above can be easily parsed into "now and then" quantity and effect.

If you take the total ecosystem effect as first stated: "a generation at a time we're getting used to the fact that we're turning this planet into a giant toilet bowl.", I think there is no question to the debate. We are effecting planetary ecosystems to a greater extent today than we were 150 years ago.

My take- its definitely better today. I can have a beer, hash this out with with others and skip the bother of walking through the rain to the local pub. Or is that worse now...?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'd think you'd also have to take the world population into consideration.

While we may be polluting it more today, how does the amount of pollution compare per person?

[Tom Rick]

Interesting retort- I don't have the numbers at hand but would loosely surmise that the advent of the industrial revolution and subsequent reliance on fossil fuels has put the per person contribution to environmental degradation higher of late. We are in a long grind- hunter gathers to agrarians to industrial over lain by exponential population growth. Better/worse? have to start by defining what we care about and then practicing a bit of historical musing to see what has changed.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I'd think you'd also have to take the world population into consideration.

While we may be polluting it more today, how does the amount of pollution compare per person?

Much worse.

My Great-grandmother's pollutants were sewage, vegetable and animal trimmings, coal ash and soot, natural fiber cloth, wood. All bio-degradable.

Today's pollutants (in any per-person quantity) are a far cry from being that clean.
.

[Pat Germain]

Much worse.

My Great-grandmother's pollutants were sewage, vegetable and animal trimmings, coal ash and soot, natural fiber cloth, wood. All bio-degradable.

Today's pollutants (in any per-person quantity) are a far cry from being that clean.
.

Let us not forget our ancestors had to build a fire every time they wanted to cook or get warm. Those were wood fires and they spewed a whole lot of pollutants.

I was in Kenya back in the 1990s. Everywhere I went there was a smokey haze hanging in the air. It was mostly wood smoke. The vast majority of the people lived out in the open and were constantly building fires and burning whatever twigs and brush they could find.

[Martin Boekers]

Just some thoughts.....

Are we any happier than our parents, grandparents and great grandparents were? Are our lives any less stressful?

How many of us actually know our neighbors names anymore.

When a neighbor falls ill do we bring a dinner over from time to time, cut their grass shovel their snow?

I can remember walking to school and coming home for lunch that my mom had prepared. How many of us today have a parent that can afford to stay at home and raise a family and take care of a house? It takes two incomes to live the life we have become accustomed to.

Life didn't revolve around fast food meals, but a family dinner when we all shared events of the day.

Video games, tv, cable, internet. I see vacant ball fields all over the city. In the summer we would get up at 6am play ball at the park (made up games depending on how many showed up) took a nap at noon and was back by 3pm to play until dinner. Yes now I am a bit overweight:rolleyes: , last week we went to a buffet and I was about the thinnest one there:D YIKES!

Our lifestyles have changed, we became spoiled through generations of parents always wanting a better life for their kids. Yes we have become spoiled.

There's nothing like a cool glass of hand squeezed lemonade while sitting on the front porch watching a sunset to bring me back home.


Marty

[Jim Koepke]

My comparison will only be made over the years of my life, but the same theory can be extrapolated out to go back as far as one wishes to take it.

50 years ago, my knowledge of this subject was almost nonexistent.

We can then accept that a lack of knowledge may be considered ignorance...

And since it is often said that ignorance is bliss...

We can then derive that 50 years ago, life was more blissful and by that measure alone, it may have been better.

jim

[Belinda Barfield]

It seems we have two different streams going here . . . what we desire for the environment and the earth, and what we desire for the people. I don't think one necessarily excludes the other, just different trains of thought.

As Marty said, I think as families we had it better a generation or so ago. Children were allowed to be children. Summers were endless days or freedom, not 12 hours of organized activities. Families were families. We took in those who couldn't fend for themselves. We offered comfort and aide to the sick and the dying, and comfort to those who remained after the death. Well, at least that is how it was where I grew up, your story may be completely different. Is there anything better than gathering around the table with your family for fried chicken after church on Sunday morning? Or home churned ice cream that afternoon?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Get the little picture book:
"The Good Old Days, They were Terrible"
By Otto Bettmann
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Old-Days-They-Were-Terrible/dp/0394709411
It'll loieen ya good.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Belinda,

You left out the cold water melon coming out of a wash tub full of ice and water on a hot Sunday afternoon.

In some ways the good old days were better.....in some ways they weren't.....it's a matter of perspective.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Just some thoughts.....

Are we any happier than our parents, grandparents and great grandparents were? Are our lives any less stressful?

How many of us actually know our neighbors names anymore.

When a neighbor falls ill do we bring a dinner over from time to time, cut their grass shovel their snow?

I can remember walking to school and coming home for lunch that my mom had prepared. How many of us today have a parent that can afford to stay at home and raise a family and take care of a house? It takes two incomes to live the life we have become accustomed to.

Life didn't revolve around fast food meals, but a family dinner when we all shared events of the day.

Video games, tv, cable, internet. I see vacant ball fields all over the city. In the summer we would get up at 6am play ball at the park (made up games depending on how many showed up) took a nap at noon and was back by 3pm to play until dinner. Yes now I am a bit overweight:rolleyes: , last week we went to a buffet and I was about the thinnest one there:D YIKES!

Our lifestyles have changed, we became spoiled through generations of parents always wanting a better life for their kids. Yes we have become spoiled.

There's nothing like a cool glass of hand squeezed lemonade while sitting on the front porch watching a sunset to bring me back home. Marty


We all need to take off the rose colored glasses and tell people on TV to shut up.

Families used to have 3, 4, 5 kids so they could ensure a few made it through childhood. My wife's aunt gave 2 kids away to farms in 1932 'cause she couldn't feed them in the city. My Grandmother lived on a farm in Poland in 1923 and had children servants who lived in the barn happy to have someplace to stay. 'Street Urchins' is a term used to describe kids running wild in the streets of our US cities 100 years ago. There have always been bad parents among us.

Let's go back to that?

As far as needing two incomes as being a bad thing.... How many farmers in the 1850's had a mom sitting around doing nothing? None. All through history both parents worked. A LOT and HARD! The minor, short-lived post-war blip when dad went to work and mom stayed home (those that could) is what got us into the credit crunch we're enjoying now... more stuff, less output, fewer exports, less money, more debt. It is a falsehood that that would continue and is pure folly to think we're ever going to go back to Donna Reed, Doris Day, no matter what talking head cries about missing the 'good old days'. THOSE were the days we invented credit cards.

Lowered productivity so one half the work force could sit fallow while everyone borrowed to stay even... great thinking. Used to be you saved to buy a car. We learned to borrow what wasn't being earned and we're in debt now. We borrowed to build bridges that we can't now afford to maintain and borrowed to have kids we can't afford to educate. Economies built on single-earner households don't work... never have. We tried and created a mountain of debt for the effort.

While dad sold insurance and mom read magazines, everyone in other countries rolled up their sleeves and figured out how to sell us junky toasters and rusty cars on credit.

We've been on vacation for too long and have taught our youth to expect this to continue. Time to get back to making stuff that a German will buy. We need the cash to pay the bills. Will mom's efforts be needed? Yep. Quick sandwich? Yep.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Is there anything better than gathering around the table with your family for fried chicken after church on Sunday morning? Or home churned ice cream that afternoon?

Agreed, as long as we don't do that 3 x 7. In my house, we valued being out of the house more than staying home. A Panera sandwich 50 miles away beat the heck out of a one hour talk-fest in the kitchen any day - we talked in the car too. Balloon festivals, flight lessons, ball games, concerts in the park, scout meetings, school plays, visits to relatives..... A quick meal allows those to happen. We NEVER hit a restaurant with a drive though, but we still ate (and aren't overweight by a long shot either)

Why does remembering days of long ago include scowling at todays' busy, on-the-go families enjoying each others' company and accomplishments away from the kitchen? I don't get it. When did food and where you ate it become so important?

Happy memories for my family don't revolve around getting stuck in a hot kitchen cooking meals. Well, some do, too.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Get the little picture book:
"The Good Old Days, They were Terrible"
By Otto Bettmann
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Old-Days-They-Were-Terrible/dp/0394709411
It'll loieen ya good.

I ordered it. You can read a few pages... 150,000 horses in NYC each dropping 20-25 lbs of manure a day. WOW.

No wonder the car was seen as relief from pollution.
.

[Belinda Barfield]

Why does remembering days of long ago include scowling at todays' busy, on-the-go families enjoying each others' company and accomplishments away from the kitchen? I don't get it. When did food and where you ate it become so important?

Happy memories for my family don't revolve around getting stuck in a hot kitchen cooking meals. Well, some do, too.
.

Mitchell, I did not mean to imply that Sunday chicken after church was the only way for families to bond. I just have fond memories of that, and it wasn't every Sunday. Both my parents worked, although there were a few years that my mother didn't. I've grabbed the quick meal before evening band practice. We bonded on family vacations every year. I wasn't scowling on the "on the go families" who share time. I do wonder sometimes if parents wonder where the time went when they spend so little time with their children that they realize one day that those children are grown. Of course that doesn't happen in every family, but it does happen in some.

No offense intended.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Mitchell, I did not mean to imply that Sunday chicken after church was the only way for families to bond. I just have fond memories of that, and it wasn't every Sunday. Both my parents worked, although there were a few years that my mother didn't. I've grabbed the quick meal before evening band practice. We bonded on family vacations every year. I wasn't scowling on the "on the go families" who share time. I do wonder sometimes if parents wonder where the time went when they spend so little time with their children that they realize one day that those children are grown. Of course that doesn't happen in every family, but it does happen in some.

No offense intended.

None taken.

I do however take offense (to the attack on my intelligence) when a debate on public policy, laws, family budgeting, parenting, taxes... devolves to the same old "I wish the good old days were back so we could spend time with the kids at the table" bull.

As a society, we took a shot at that and missed miserably.
.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Please folks .....back off a little.

[Belinda Barfield]

None taken.

I do however take offense (to the attack on my intelligence) when a debate on public policy, laws, family budgeting, parenting, taxes... devolves to the same old "I wish the good old days were back so we could spend time with the kids at the table" bull.

As a society, we took a shot at that and missed miserably.
.

Mitchell, it was not my intention to attack your intelligence. My post about the "good old days" was merely me reminiscing about something that I personally miss. It is be your opinion that it is bull, and perhaps I should not have posted it in your thread debating public policy, etc. Again, my apolgies.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This thread has run it's course.

I am closing it.