Honing Compound on MDF? Really??

[Jon Agnew]

I have seen several sites and forums on which people recommend using LV green honing compound on a piece of raw MDF. Does this really work? I'm having a really hard time wrapping my mind around this considering the great extent we go to to ensure that all of our sharpening supplies are flat to within .001" tolerance. If anyone has used this method with good results or just feels like enlightening me on why I should stop caring about flat, I would be very grateful. :confused:

[Joel Goodman]

MDF is pretty flat!

[Harlan Coverdale]

Can't explain the mechanics behind why, but it works well for me. I've also used a small piece of BB ply with good results.

[Zach England]

Can't explain the mechanics behind why, but it works well for me. I've also used a small piece of BB ply with good results.


With the plywood which way do you orient the grain on the top layer?

[Zach England]

I have seen several sites and forums on which people recommend using LV green honing compound on a piece of raw MDF. Does this really work? I'm having a really hard time wrapping my mind around this considering the great extent we go to to ensure that all of our sharpening supplies are flat to within .001" tolerance. If anyone has used this method with good results or just feels like enlightening me on why I should stop caring about flat, I would be very grateful. :confused:

I don't think the point us to stop caring about flat. it is that honing and stropping are fundamentally different operations. Afterall, leather is less flat than MDF.

I'll let someone with more knowledge tell me why. That's just a guess.

[Rick Markham]

David Charlesworth recommends it, and I have had great success using his methods to set up my planes etc. He recommends soaking the MDF in BLO and allowing it to dry for several weeks, in his book, he cheats using a thinner piece of MDF soaked in BLO and glues it to a piece of plywood stock. The thinner piece allows it to dry and cure faster, the plywood keeps it from warping over time. The BLO makes the MDF into a more ridgid surface helping to minimize wear on the MDF and providing a stable substrate for the diamonds to "imbed" in. I am wanting to try this and am interested to see if anyone else uses his method.

[Jon Agnew]

Well, I'm not about to argue with David Charlesworth. :eek:

[Montgomery Scott]

While the green compound is good stuff and I have some, I've been turned on to DurSol which is, IMO, more effective and easier to use than the green stick. It very effectively produces a mirror surface.

[Rick Markham]

Well, I'm not about to argue with David Charlesworth. :eek:

I know, I know... Gotta give credit due where credit is owed :p

I knew there would be flak for dropping the DC name :eek:

[Andrew Pitonyak]

What is BLO?

[Sam Takeuchi]

Try it, it works. Irregularities on MDF surface doesn't get transfered onto the blade. At this point, you apply light to moderate pressure on the blade and only for a few strokes, compound removes very tiny amount of metal that it's not going to cause irregularities or abnormality along the edge as long as you aren't rubbing the blade unevenly.

[Steve Dallas]

MDF is pretty flat!

A lot of things are flat over the relevant area in which one might strop. With a polishing compound applied, I'd be more concerned about smoothness and at a very low magnification, MDF isn't terribly smooth. Nor is leather, but its saving grace is its flexibility. I don't see MDF as an improvement over a leather strop charged with paste. Not sure what would motivate one to use MDF as a strop. Novelty? Seems silly. Efficacy? Over what? Cost? Okay, just don't tell us about the $35,000 worth of other equipment and fixtures in the shop and we won't challenge on that one. If a $10 piece of leather is breaking the bank then one has wandered into the wrong hobby. Get out now while you can.

[Ben Davis]

What is BLO?
Boiled Linseed Oil

[David Weaver]

A lot of things are flat over the relevant area in which one might strop. With a polishing compound applied, I'd be more concerned about smoothness and at a very low magnification, MDF isn't terribly smooth. Nor is leather, but its saving grace is its flexibility. I don't see MDF as an improvement over a leather strop charged with paste. Not sure what would motivate one to use MDF as a strop. Novelty? Seems silly. Efficacy? Over what? Cost? Okay, just don't tell us about the $35,000 worth of other equipment and fixtures in the shop and we won't challenge on that one. If a $10 piece of leather is breaking the bank then one has wandered into the wrong hobby. Get out now while you can.

MDF is an improvement over a leather strop because it allows you to hone without changing any geometry. You use it just like you'd hone on a fine stone, the metal removal is more aggressive (if you charge it regularly), and it's still an extremely fine edge.

The surface gets burnished and filled in with abrasive and lubricant and slick, it doesn't really resemble MDF.

I wouldn't use diamonds on MDF because there's no reason to with chromium oxide available. Green stuff on MDF creates an edge that is clearly sharper than any of my synthetic stones, including a shapton 15k, and it does a better job sharpening/finishing the edge on some steel that shaptons are marginal on (high speed steel).

You also have zero chance of having a wire edge on any standard tool steel when you're done.

I sharpen straight razors with a barber hone, well - two of them - one charged and one lubricated only. It's a completely different thing - the MDF strop/hone is much better suited to woodworking because you can use it on the front and back of the bevel as much as you want without dubbing anything.

[Zach England]

Do you only pull the blade towards you, or do you also push it?



MDF is an improvement over a leather strop because it allows you to hone without changing any geometry. You use it just like you'd hone on a fine stone, the metal removal is more aggressive (if you charge it regularly), and it's still an extremely fine edge.

The surface gets burnished and filled in with abrasive and lubricant and slick, it doesn't really resemble MDF.

I wouldn't use diamonds on MDF because there's no reason to with chromium oxide available. Green stuff on MDF creates an edge that is clearly sharper than any of my synthetic stones, including a shapton 15k, and it does a better job sharpening/finishing the edge on some steel that shaptons are marginal on (high speed steel).

You also have zero chance of having a wire edge on any standard tool steel when you're done.

I sharpen straight razors with a barber hone, well - two of them - one charged and one lubricated only. It's a completely different thing - the MDF strop/hone is much better suited to woodworking because you can use it on the front and back of the bevel as much as you want without dubbing anything.

[Steve Dallas]

MDF is an improvement over a leather strop because it allows you to hone without changing any geometry. You use it just like you'd hone on a fine stone, the metal removal is more aggressive (if you charge it regularly), and it's still an extremely fine edge.

The surface gets burnished and filled in with abrasive and lubricant and slick, it doesn't really resemble MDF.

I wouldn't use diamonds on MDF because there's no reason to with chromium oxide available. Green stuff on MDF creates an edge that is clearly sharper than any of my synthetic stones, including a shapton 15k, and it does a better job sharpening/finishing the edge on some steel that shaptons are marginal on (high speed steel).

You also have zero chance of having a wire edge on any standard tool steel when you're done.

I sharpen straight razors with a barber hone, well - two of them - one charged and one lubricated only. It's a completely different thing - the MDF strop/hone is much better suited to woodworking because you can use it on the front and back of the bevel as much as you want without dubbing anything.

What sort of furniture do you build?

[John Daugherty]

I use MDF with automotive polishing compound. I bought a bottle about 4 years ago. Shake the bottle put a small drop on the MDF and go to town. Things are so sharp that the hair on my arms jumps off when they see the blade coming.:D

[David Weaver]

Do you only pull the blade towards you, or do you also push it?

Mine is burnished enough that I can push or pull (i've been using the same piece of MDF for at least a year - once it's burnished it stays flat). It's supported on the bottom by a piece of O1 steel, which originally was what I was going to use for diamonds and the MDF was just to hold the steel, but I turned it over and put green stuff on the MDF and lube it with light mineral oil. You use it for a while and you'll figure out what chunks material out of the surface, but generally it's hard enough that I do not have to lift chisels and plane irons off the surface on a forward stroke, but you could dig them in if you tried.

I've used other pieces of MDF with dursol and autosol, though, with no support, and have had no issues with lack of support as long as the MDF starts flat. Dursol and autosol are much more aggressive at first, and my understanding is that they are aluminum oxide.

It sees mostly hollow ground chisels as a maintenance regime, and it will see HSS plane irons when I am dimensioning cocobolo or ebony and a shapton seems to leave a wire edge.

[David Weaver]

What sort of furniture do you build?

Finely finished wooden troll traps.

[Steve Dallas]

Finely finished wooden troll traps.

When I read about the finely sieved and micronized minutiae some people erroneously refer to as honing I can't help but wonder what gets built with the uber-tuned edges being touted.

Please forgive the intrusion.

[David Weaver]

Air woodworking...that's what we *all* do. It's like air guitar, but with woodworking instead.

Bill and Ted's woodworking.

We pare air.

[Steve Dallas]

Air woodworking...that's what we *all* do. It's like air guitar, but with woodworking instead.

Bill and Ted's woodworking.

We pare air.

Oh, oh, You People.....burnishers of MDF all......

Yep, I gotcha.

I should have just enjoyed the laugh and stopped as soon as I read "My MDF has become burnished...." Really, there is a point at which some of this stuff becomes self-parodying. This may be one of those moments.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, the idea of making paring chisels and smoother irons sharp is just dumb...gives me a giggle, too...so ridiculous.

[Steve Dallas]

Yeah, the idea of making paring chisels and smoother irons sharp is just dumb...gives me a giggle, too...so ridiculous.

Cheers, have fun with your woodworking. I know a windmill when I see it.

[David Weaver]

Glad you could stop by and add so much positive to the discussion today.

Have fun with the windmill hobby....

[David Weaver]

Separate from all of the urine that seems to hit the floor...

... another idea is if you have one of those almost worthless 6" disc sanders on one of the belt combination sanders with a 4" belt, and $15 of vegetable tanned scrap leather from ebay, you can skip your finish stone on the front of the bevel entirely - the green stuff cuts super fast at the speed the disc turns, and like on the mdf, it cuts anything - HSS or whatever. That's another cheap thing to do that's quick. I have never used the 6" disc on the sander for anything, and the only reason I have the machine at all is to grind primary bevels and waste stock when making irons or cutting curves into plane sides.

The only caveat is that you have to keep a light touch and keep whatever you're sharpening well on the safe side of the disc (very important, not a good lesson to learn after you hear a plane iron bouncing across the floor razor sharp).

10x as fast as the tormek strop and you can use very light pressure and still get sharp fast.

[Larry Marshall]

I think the problem with understanding why this might work is the starting assumption that sharpening materials are .001" flat. That's not going to be true of sandpaper, waterstones "flattened" by rubbing one against the other, Tormek wheels, or anything else you're likely to use to sharpen blades. But they do the job just fine.

Cheers --- Larry

[Jon Agnew]

Thanks for all the comments. I grabbed an offcut of MDF today from work, so I'll try it tonight and see what all the fuss is about. :cool:

[David Weaver]

Got a plane in the mail today and it had a huge long shallow primary bevel. I'll microbevel it until I can chase the primary back far enough to hollow grind it.

So, with that, I figured instead of making this an extra step, I'd go straight from a 1000 diamond stone to this for a final bevel (with a guide). It worked fine, i skipped the finish stone completely (even for redoing the back polish. The green stuff is aggressive, cut surprisingly fast, actually (old mathieson iron, though, yields to the stone very easily).

The reason the flatness doesn't matter that much is because it's the final step and it shouldn't be removing that much metal. Flatness of the medium stone matters.

All of the black swarf is metal and green stuff. I've scraped it off a couple of times with an old plane blade, but I don't know that there's a reason to do that other than thinking it'll keep it tidy.

Total cost, less than $10.

Happy windmilling!

[Rick Markham]

Got a plane in the mail today and it had a huge long shallow primary bevel. I'll microbevel it until I can chase the primary back far enough to hollow grind it.

So, with that, I figured instead of making this an extra step, I'd go straight from a 1000 diamond stone to this for a final bevel (with a guide). It worked fine, i skipped the finish stone completely (even for redoing the back polish. The green stuff is aggressive, cut surprisingly fast, actually (old mathieson iron, though, yields to the stone very easily).

The reason the flatness doesn't matter that much is because it's the final step and it shouldn't be removing that much metal. Flatness of the medium stone matters.

All of the black swarf is metal and green stuff. I've scraped it off a couple of times with an old plane blade, but I don't know that there's a reason to do that other than thinking it'll keep it tidy.

Total cost, less than $10.

Happy windmilling!

That's a theoretical mess you have there. My inclination would be similar to the japanese's thoughts on waterstones, the slurry will continue to help provide the polishing action and shouldn't be wiped or rinsed off. Maybe I'm incorrect in this assumption (it is just an assumption) as it would be difficult to tell when the surface become "loaded" with iron particles and the diamonds are no longer effective.

Can I play... (best Monty Python voice) "Now go away or we shall taunt you a second time!" :eek:

[george wilson]

I just use,unlike anyone else,the smooth (hair) side of leather glued to a flat piece of wood. I think it has less potential to round over the edge than the soft,fuzzy suede side. For some reason,I can't get excited about using MDF,though it obviously works for many.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, different than the slurry on a natural stone. In this case, it goes the other way around. The slurry on a natural stone carries the swarf away and provides particles that are free and not clogged, speeding the cutting action of the stone.

In this case, the swarf is clogging the surface of the MDF, slowing down the cutting action, but not too slow. I don't remember how well it cut when it was fresh, that's a long time ago now, but I probably slathered it pretty significantly with the green stuff at first looking for something I could use to keep a chisel touched up without having to have oil or water around.

[David Weaver]

I just use,unlike anyone else,the smooth (hair) side of leather glued to a flat piece of wood. I think it has less potential to round over the edge than the soft,fuzzy suede side. For some reason,I can't get excited about using MDF,though it obviously works for many.

George, do you charge it, or are you just using clean and plain it to work the wire edge off, same as you would do if you were using the palm of your hand?

[george wilson]

I charge it and really let the compound get very worn out like yours because it just gets finer.

[Rick Markham]

That makes sense! I have never stropped any of my tools, guess I never had a need with knife sharpening. So all of this is of interest to me. My question is by stropping with 1 micron diamond paste, am I going to refine the micro bevel I hone on a .92 micron stone?

All of my irons have been polished on the back through the grits to a mirror finish off the .92 micron stone (16000 grit), after talking with Ron Brese, about Jameel and his method of sharpening, I have been pulling a wire edge and wiping it off only on the .92 micron stone, the final micro bevel is honed on that stone and then the wire edge wiped off again. So far I have been super successful with this method. Is stropping with a 1 micron paste going to improve this even further, or at some point am I beating a dead horse?

[Sam Takeuchi]

With 1 micron grit, no. Obviously it doesn't make a lot of sense to go over it again with larger grit. The process of stropping still requires removal of metal and reduction of scratches, it doesn't magically improve the edge simply for doing it, especially when it's loaded with larger grit.

[Rick Markham]

That's pretty much what I figured, which is why I haven't done it. I also haven't seen any stropping compound that is less than 1 micron, I guess I can return to being blissfully unaware :D

[Sam Takeuchi]

Lee Valley sells 0.5 micron honing compound (their famous green one). Also some people use metal polish or car polish (for removing microscopic scratches and buffing) from auto shop (silicone free kind). You should be able to find less than 1 micron for those too. I've used both, and I find green compound to be more manageable than paste buffing compound. Now you are aware! Either way they worked fine for me.

As far as stropping goes, I don't normally do it first time off the stone. Instead, I use it between sharpening sessions for edge touch up. No water or oil necessary, just rub it a few times, and revive acceptably sharp edge to get the work done without being too much of distraction.

[David Weaver]

That's pretty much what I figured, which is why I haven't done it. I also haven't seen any stropping compound that is less than 1 micron, I guess I can return to being blissfully unaware :D

I agree with what sam says. Green stuff from LV / Rockler / Woodcraft in the yellow box (called 0.5 micron) and plenty of places for diamonds in the 0.10-0.25 range if you want finer stuff.

But with A2 or high carbon steel, it's a waste of time after a 1 micron stone. Their wire edges aren't that persistent and the shaptons make a full cut in the steel (cut the carbides and all). I can't tell the difference in the finish a smoother leaves from the 0.5 micron honing compound and the 1 micron stone, nor really any difference in how long something stays sharp.
It's more a handy thing to have around to keep the chisels you pare with sharp, and it's nice to chase the wire edge after a hard black arkansas if you're using one. Could almost skip the hard black because it cuts at least as fast and much finer. Handy for HSS, too, which a lot of stones don't cut that well, but the green stuff does fine.

The plane that I sent you was just sharpened on a shapton stone and saw a fair amount of use on that sharpening before I sent it.

I'm more interested in the cheap hone aspect - like avoiding spending $300 on a half micron stone and having something I can carry around and out of the shop and not worry much about dropping it.

[Rick Markham]

David, thanks for the info. I will have to check out the .5 micron compound, I too am not terribly interested in spending 300 bucks on a 30000 grit stone, I know most people would consider it worthless but I am pretty anal about having razor sharp tools. It's force of habit, Once you have a really sharp tool, there really is no turning back. I just invested in some of the A2 LN bevel edge chisels, so efficiency in sharpening is becoming an aspect of my research now. I am fully content with my methodology, but as my plane/ chisel/ tool collection increases the efficiency (without suffering quality of the final product) of the task is becoming increasingly important.

I enjoy sharpening (believe it or not) it's quiet reflection time to me. (my brain goes on auto pilot after years of doing it) but I enjoy woodworking more ;) As the collection of edge tools increases my woodworking time proportionally decreases :D

[Andrew Pitonyak]

That's pretty much what I figured, which is why I haven't done it. I also haven't seen any stropping compound that is less than 1 micron, I guess I can return to being blissfully unaware :D
I believe that diamond paste is available in 1/4 micros sizes. Some people here recommended a seller on eBay that sells a set, so I purchased one, but have not tried it yet. I intended to use a piece of flat maple with them, but, I may try MDF first. but I have some maple and no MDF. I have been waiting for the pain from my last surgery to subside first, however.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a couple of strops: leather with Veritas green rouge and plain leather. The green rouge is used to maintain an edge between honings, while the plain leather is used if I want to make sure that the wire edge is absolutely gone.

I do not tend to strop to increase the fineness of the edge, but on the occasions I do it does take it up a notch from the 12K Shapton Pro I usually end with.

More recently I have been trying out the .5 micron micro-abrasive sheets from LV. I spray contact glue these to glass the same size as the Shapton. My thought was that the glass would be flat and resist any dubbing (as expected from the leather). So far I have not found that the sheets provide any advantage. The green rouge on leather seems to last longer and hone faster. Has anyone else tried this stuff? http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=33004&cat=1,43072

With regards using diamond paste on leather, my comparison with green rouge concluded that they produce the same result (sharpness) but that the diamond left a slightly gritty feel when using a blade. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Stroppingwithgreenrougeversesdiamondpaste.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Derek - I also bought those sheets to try and adhered one to a board. I find the MDF and leather strops to be more forgiving and have you spending less time sharpening. Putting those microabrasives on a hard sheet surface I think is more handy for someone who uses a honing guide exclusively - it's very unforgiving and you find yourself trying to make sure all parts of the ege are honed.

I haven't used it enough to find out if I could cut it as easily as sandpaper, I just didn't like the feel of it.

If there is just even one grit of something on the surface you glue it to, you also have a real pain. Too much thought for sharpening, I'm always looking for faster, less thought, and more perfect sharpness at inspection the first time - something you can do to bring an edge back in a matter of seconds with a good rhythm.

[Ed Harrison]

Just for fun, I tried some toothpaste on MDF to see if I could come up with a honing system cheaper than your $10 one. It actually works pretty well - you get a razor-sharp hone, sharp enough to use in woodworking.

I didn't spend a lot of time with it, because though minty fresh is good, after a while it's a little overwhelming.

[Tim Put]

Lee Valley sells 0.5 micron honing compound (their famous green one).

This is not quite true, and is one of my few complaints with Lee Valley. If you track down the MSDS for what they sell as 0.5 micron chromium oxide, you'll find it's only partly chromium oxide, and instead mostly aluminum oxide, and that it's composed mostly of particles much larger than 0.5 micron.

It does work. It does leave a sharp edge. It works faster than true 0.5 micron pastes (except 0.5 micron diamond paste). But it is not 0.5 micron, and does not leave quite as sharp or polished an edge.

[David Weaver]

This is not quite true, and is one of my few complaints with Lee Valley. If you track down the MSDS for what they sell as 0.5 micron chromium oxide, you'll find it's only partly chromium oxide, and instead mostly aluminum oxide, and that it's composed mostly of particles much larger than 0.5 micron.

It does work. It does leave a sharp edge. It works faster than true 0.5 micron pastes (except 0.5 micron diamond paste). But it is not 0.5 micron, and does not leave quite as sharp or polished an edge.

I've seen that debate on razor honing pages. Whatever it has in it, it's still reasonably aggressive, and still finer than my shapton stone specified as slightly less than 1 micron.

I've kind of been waiting after seeing that to find out just what size the other particles are. Subjectively, I don't think people should get too swept up in finding out exactly what it is if it works well, especially for woodworking tools were you're not going to snag your face and get razorburn.

[James Scheffler]

More recently I have been trying out the .5 micron micro-abrasive sheets from LV. I spray contact glue these to glass the same size as the Shapton. My thought was that the glass would be flat and resist any dubbing (as expected from the leather). So far I have not found that the sheets provide any advantage. The green rouge on leather seems to last longer and hone faster. Has anyone else tried this stuff? http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=33004&cat=1,43072


I've tried it, but I still find that using the green compound on leather improves the edge left by the green abrasive sheet.

I found some standard 2500 grit wet/dry sandpaper and found that it's about equivalent to the green sheet in terms of the edge sharpness it produces, lasts about as long, and is a little cheaper. I tend to like it a little better than the green sheet, but either is fine.

Jim S.

[David Keller NC]

Just for fun, I tried some toothpaste on MDF to see if I could come up with a honing system cheaper than your $10 one. It actually works pretty well - you get a razor-sharp hone, sharp enough to use in woodworking.

I didn't spend a lot of time with it, because though minty fresh is good, after a while it's a little overwhelming.

Ha! I'll give credit where credit is due for inventiveness. :)

But the bigger issue I'd see with using that type of abrasive in the long haul is the sugar it contains - I'd think it'd attract ants.:D

[Rick Markham]

Ha! I'll give credit where credit is due for inventiveness. :)

But the bigger issue I'd see with using that type of abrasive in the long haul is the sugar it contains - I'd think it'd attract ants.:D

Yes but the ants won't have cavities and will have minty fresh breath!

[jerry nazard]

Yes but the ants won't have cavities and will have minty fresh breath!

Friends, we have a winner....:D

[Will Blick]

First, if you like MDF, move to Hardboard, you will never go back to MDF, dead flat, cheap and you gotta use em and toss them away after a few uses, cause you can not remove the swarf.... thats the key....and it also represents the value of using stones. I use Hardboard for my .25 - .5 micron diamond pastes.... I never found a better surface...

As for strops, I never use them anymore... any soft substrate will randomly make contact with the tip of the edge. This, is what we want to avoid, as it will slightly round the edge angle... I think strops are the perfect tool for very low angle blades, like a barber uses....this is not applicable in woodworking blades where our blade angles are 4 - 10x greater vs. the 5 deg? angles on barber shaving knives. It will shine well, but often will be less sharp.

Another poster touched on a good point... what the usefullness of such sharp blades....other than the obvious "it's cool"... I have found after 30k shapton stone, the benefits start falling apart... in other words, I can get the edge sharper, but that added sharpness might last for a few plane strokes.... sometimes useful on really knarly burl..... but a lot of extra work, for very little extra output. Since the 30k stone is fast an easy, its a nice stone.... albeit, quite costly.

[Steve Dallas]

First, if you like MDF, move to Hardboard, you will never go back to MDF, dead flat, cheap and you gotta use em and toss them away after a few uses, cause you can not remove the swarf.... thats the key....and it also represents the value of using stones. I use Hardboard for my .25 - .5 micron diamond pastes.... I never found a better surface...

As for strops, I never use them anymore... any soft substrate will randomly make contact with the tip of the edge. This, is what we want to avoid, as it will slightly round the edge angle... I think strops are the perfect tool for very low angle blades, like a barber uses....this is not applicable in woodworking blades where our blade angles are 4 - 10x greater vs. the 5 deg? angles on barber shaving knives. It will shine well, but often will be less sharp.

Another poster touched on a good point... what the usefullness of such sharp blades....other than the obvious "it's cool"... I have found after 30k shapton stone, the benefits start falling apart... in other words, I can get the edge sharper, but that added sharpness might last for a few plane strokes.... sometimes useful on really knarly burl..... but a lot of extra work, for very little extra output. Since the 30k stone is fast an easy, its a nice stone.... albeit, quite costly.

Maurice Fraser from A Guide to Honing on the Museum of Woodworking Tools site puts it thusly, and is correct:

"The purpose of stropping is not to abrade more metal, but rather to continue bending, flexing, fatiguing, and burnishing off the miniscule metal strands still clinging to the edge of the blade after the burr breaks off. If you sharpen with waterstones and use a "gold" 8000 grit stone as a final step, stropping is not necessary."

And I would add that the same goes for other very fine media - 2000 grit and above sandpaper and equivalents.

[Will Blick]

good post Steve....
I think the barber shops razor edges created folk lure about leather stropes....
ww's need a FLAT surface....

[Steve Dallas]

good post Steve....
I think the barber shops razor edges created folk lure about leather stropes....
ww's need a FLAT surface....

Actually, not really. To accomplish what Fraser asserts is the goal of stropping one can strop on a calloused hand, the pant leg of their blue jeans, a piece of a brown grocery sack, etc.

What is being propounded in this thread is using a paste on a flat surface as a proxy for a honing stone. My first question would be - what is it about one's finishing stone does the individual not like, and if there's a problem then get a better/finer final honing stone. Very fine media don't leave rag, therefore no need to strop to remove rag. Claim your insurance and move on. If one has made an investment in a very fine grit finishing stone then be satisfied and get back to woodworking. Frankly, the notion of owning really good stones - expensive waterstones, Shaptons, maybe even translucent or black Arks., and then introducing MDF or hardboard into the equation seems a might more than just a little ridiculous. And obssessed to the point of distraction.

[James Scheffler]

Maurice Fraser from A Guide to Honing on the Museum of Woodworking Tools site puts it thusly, and is correct:

"The purpose of stropping is not to abrade more metal, but rather to continue bending, flexing, fatiguing, and burnishing off the miniscule metal strands still clinging to the edge of the blade after the burr breaks off. If you sharpen with waterstones and use a "gold" 8000 grit stone as a final step, stropping is not necessary."

And I would add that the same goes for other very fine media - 2000 grit and above sandpaper and equivalents.

I disagree. Check out Leonard Lee's Complete Guide to Sharpening. He has electron microscope photos of a chisel edge sharpened on an 8000 stone and after it had been honed on a strop with chromium oxide compound. It looks like the strop/compound removed metal, leaving finer scratches. It wasn't just removing a wire edge, although a strop can certainly do that too.

The book doesn't explain exactly what kind of strop was used for those pictures, so smooth leather vs. rough leather vs. mdf vs. wood part of the debate can rage on unabated.... :eek:

Jim S.

[James Scheffler]

My first question would be - what is it about one's finishing stone does the individual not like, and if there's a problem then get a better/finer final honing stone.

Well, I would rather spend a few dollars on a block of green chromium oxide compound (that will outlast me) and put it on a scrap of mdf or leather than spend $150 or whatever on a finer stone. Instead of buying a better honing stone, you're in effect making one. The chromium oxide really does refine the edge by abrading metal.

Jim S.

[Will Blick]

>Frankly, the notion of owning really good stones - expensive waterstones, Shaptons, maybe even translucent or black Arks., and then introducing MDF or hardboard into the equation seems a might more than just a little ridiculous. And obssessed to the point of distraction.


Steve, you just described me! I am the "rediculous one"... thanks for the kind words. :-(


Some of us like the art of sharpening.... so at times we over sharpen to satisfy our curiosity, or take out our stress on the stones / mdf, etc. This is a hobby right? I figured we can discuss these issues in a Neander forum without ridicule, but, I was wrong again! sheeeesh....


James, I agree with your position.... a soft substrate will expose the edge to the abrasive...and that is what you are trying to avoid. this is why even when using hardboard, I am very careful to lay a small uniform amount of diamond paste on the hardboard, because I am careful not to have abrasive scratch at the edge....also, since this is a very loose system, I only have pressure on the pull stroke, never on the push, this too reduces edge damage with all the floating abrasive and swarf... on the same token, this is why I consntatly remove the swarf on the water stones, allowing a constant water drip over the stone when sharpening... its helped tremendously....

[David Weaver]

I disagree. Check out Leonard Lee's Complete Guide to Sharpening. He has electron microscope photos of a chisel edge sharpened on an 8000 stone and after it had been honed on a strop with chromium oxide compound. It looks like the strop/compound removed metal, leaving finer scratches. It wasn't just removing a wire edge, although a strop can certainly do that too.

The book doesn't explain exactly what kind of strop was used for those pictures, so smooth leather vs. rough leather vs. mdf vs. wood part of the debate can rage on unabated.... :eek:

Jim S.

The tougher the steel, the bigger the difference would be.

But as Will said...you'd have thought on a neander board....

but one thing is always true - you can't discuss anything in the company (virtual or otherwise) or miserable people without them trying to prove to you that they're miserable.

There are probably a half dozen people who frequent different WW boards who never have a post that isn't either telling someone that what they're doing is stupid, a waste, or beneath them, or that whatever someone posts about doing is "nothing new or special".

To my knowledge, all of the folks in that category are hobbyist woodworkers (having produced nothing special that I've seen), all are convinced they are the last word seeing through the only clear lens, and all seem like totally miserable individuals. If reading a forum is such a bother, why do it? :rolleyes:

[James Scheffler]

The tougher the steel, the bigger the difference would be.

But as Will said...you'd have thought on a neander board....

but one thing is always true - you can't discuss anything in the company (virtual or otherwise) or miserable people without them trying to prove to you that they're miserable.

There are probably a half dozen people who frequent different WW boards who never have a post that isn't either telling someone that what they're doing is stupid, a waste, or beneath them, or that whatever someone posts about doing is "nothing new or special".

To my knowledge, all of the folks in that category are hobbyist woodworkers (having produced nothing special that I've seen), all are convinced they are the last word seeing through the only clear lens, and all seem like totally miserable individuals. If reading a forum is such a bother, why do it? :rolleyes:

I'm a little mystified by this message. Seems to be aimed at me, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. Can you explain further?

Thanks,
Jim S.

[michael osadchuk]

I'm a little mystified by this message. Seems to be aimed at me, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. Can you explain further?

Thanks,
Jim S.

Jim

I've been following this thread....... I read neither David or Will's last postings as being in disagreement with you, but with the person penning the phrases "more than just a little ridiculous" and "and obsessed to the point of distraction". I read your endorsement of chromium oxide compound being in agreement with the comments of Will and David.

I believe David's 'reply' to you is in agreement with you on both the issue of uber sharpening and the tone of quoted comments.

Btw, I tried the LV green stuff on mdf and will sometime use the natural Japanese finishing stone (that is finer that 8000grit) that I bought from Lee
Valley when they were on a clearance sale for less the cost of an 8000 grit manufactured waterstone, both just to get edges as sharp as I can for the pleasure of it and because sometimes it does make a difference in planing outcomes.

good luck

michael

[Will Blick]

Thank you David for being the "voice of reason", its rare someone will defend anyone on a forum.... forums seem to have become "every man for themselves"...which IMO is how the trolls gain such a loud voice....

I agree 100% with your post..... while SMC is not as bad some forums, it still has its fair share of ridicule, betlittling, and the need to force ones opinions onto others.


> I'm a little mystified by this message. Seems to be aimed at me, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. Can you explain further?


I commented on my techniqe on sharpening, which was pertained to the OP's question. You mocked my technique and my obsessiveness... which is what David was commenting on.... what's so confusing?

[James Scheffler]

Thank you David for being the "voice of reason", its rare someone will defend anyone on a forum.... forums seem to have become "every man for themselves"...which IMO is how the trolls gain such a loud voice....

I agree 100% with your post..... while SMC is not as bad some forums, it still has its fair share of ridicule, betlittling, and the need to force ones opinions onto others.


> I'm a little mystified by this message. Seems to be aimed at me, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. Can you explain further?


I commented on my techniqe on sharpening, which was pertained to the OP's question. You mocked my technique and my obsessiveness... which is what David was commenting on.... what's so confusing?

Will,

I don't think I mocked your technique. I think we were both responding to Steve. However, when I looked back at my previous post about the electron microscope photos, I thought my tone was a little too sharp. Therefore, I wondered if David's comments about "miserable people" were directed at me. Whether or not they were, it's always good to be reminded to watch one's own tone and keep it as respectful as possible.

Jim

[David Weaver]

Will,

I don't think I mocked your technique. I think we were both responding to Steve. However, when I looked back at my previous post about the electron microscope photos, I thought my tone was a little too sharp. Therefore, I wondered if David's comments about "miserable people" were directed at me. Whether or not they were, it's always good to be reminded to watch one's own tone and keep it as respectful as possible.

Jim

James, no. They're not. I didn't find anything you wrote remotely objectionable.

[David Weaver]

So, has anyone who came to this thread late given any of this a shot?

For the folks who can't get to rockler or woodcraft (both also have the green stuff), and who don't want to incur a shipping charge to get it from LV, i wonder how well the green crayon from sears works.

I have some sticks of different colors from sears that I use on a buffer, but I have never used the green one. It was less than $3 when I got it a couple of years ago, and it says "made in usa" at the bottom. No guarantee it's as fine as the Microfine compound in the yellow box, though.

[James Scheffler]

James, no. They're not. I didn't find anything you wrote remotely objectionable.

Thanks, David. I guess I was being over sensitive. To get back on topic, I haven't used the Sears green compound. Unfortunately, LV was running a free shipping promotion that ended yesterday.

Jim

[David Weaver]

Thanks, David. I guess I was being over sensitive. To get back on topic, I haven't used the Sears green compound. Unfortunately, LV was running a free shipping promotion that ended yesterday.

Jim

I know what you're saying..been there on guessing whether or not someone is snapping at me - I should've been more clear about what direction I was talking. It's hard to tell when I follow your post with a blurb like that, but definitely not directed at you.

And totally unrelated to this post, I think barber stropping is a totally different thing. I don't know what the total angle is on my straight razors, but it can't be much more than 10 degrees. It's easy to move around metal on an edge that's that thin and who knows how hard the metal is to begin with. One thing for sure is that it's generally a pretty simple alloy, whether it's japanese or western.

I can't see where it helps with woodworking aside from tearing off the wire edge, because the first pare across hardwood endgrain is going to subject the edge to something that you'd never subject to a razor, which you don't even use on an unwashed face for fear of "atmospheric grit" dulling the razor.

The whole point of the green stuff on a piece of MDF Is to use it exactly like a hone rather than as a strop. It's still not nearly as fine as a leather stropped razor edge, and you can figure that out pretty easily with a razor by shaving right off of a heavy dose of "green stuff" or a shapton 30k. It's harsh. But, it is finer than most stones, and as fine as a shapton 30k (i've used both) or any natural stone that I have, I'm convinced, and it allows you to avoid dealing with a wire edge even on the nastiest steels (something an 8000 stone does not allow you to do). Shaptons don't cut those that well, either, especially the glasstones, which cut high carbon exceptionally well and fine, but not high alloy (stuff above and beyond A2) in my experience.

As time goes on, I don't think woodworking tools are headed toward the simple small grained low-alloy high carbon steels. People will have a mix of standard stuff and high alloy stuff, I'd bet, and the green stuff on MDF gives you a way to get a fine edge on anything, even if you have a stone that hones high alloy stuff but doesn't seem to be able to finish off the edge.

That's my point, which can be trolled any number of ways - I could do it, but it's stupid to, because the whole method works, it's cheap, portable and doesn't require the care that a stone does. It's like a gateway drug for super-fine quick edges.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Reading this thread got my interest up so I am going to give it a go. I already have the LV green crayon, a couple of leather strops from TFWW, and a whole bunch of MDF.

Dave a couple of questions.

I-f flatness may be an issue can the green stuff be spread on a precision ground O-1 steel plate?

-I remember you mentioned an auto polish, is that something you still use or have gone away from?

As for the other topic in the thread.... never mind.

[David Weaver]

I used autosol and dursol just to see how they'd work. They all work fine, but at least initially, autosol and dursol are more aggressive than the green stuff. Maybe a better solution if going straight from a medium stone, but I think straight out of the tube, they are more coarse than the really fine stones (>8000 grit).

Since I'm coming off a shapton stone or an 8000 stone, or a coarser natural stone when I use the stuff, I think the green stuff works well for maintenance or getting sharper.

As far as I know, the dursol, autosol, and PA70 from tormek are alox abrasives around 3 microns to start, I think I saw that on someone's page advertising the PA70, and they all seem to work about the same speed. They do get really fine if you leave them alone, though.

I haven't had flatness issues with the MDF, and the reason I didn't like the O1 that much is because all of mine is ground with fairly coarse marks in it. It may be in my head, but I feel like the O1 grinding marks themselves could have an effect on the edge of the tool (but they probably don't). The only time I've used it is with really fine diamond paste - really really fine - and I felt like I was fighting the machining marks in it. Doesn't hurt to try it, though - anything you'd do with O1 down the road wouldn't be ruled out by having used some green stuff on the surface of it.

[Steve Dallas]

This may have nothing at all to do with the price of tea anywhere but the attached was built with edges honed on a hard black Ark. and stropped on plain leather. The carving tools were honed with translucent Ark. slips. The slips stay on the bench and touchups are often done dry.

The legs were turned on an electric lathe (a POS Delta Midi with bed extension). Frankly, a solid treadle lathe would have been easier to use. All other work was by hand, including the reeding on the legs.

[george wilson]

Steve,I can't get your image to enlarge.

[Steve Dallas]

Steve,I can't get your image to enlarge.

I can't either. I posted the picture in another thread a while back and I think it enlarges just fine in that one. I'll see what I can figure out.

In this thread, you can enlarge it....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=136134

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think sharpness one seeks in his/her tools is something akin to finding comfortable pair of shoes. Simply some shoes are more comfortable than others while same shoes might not work for others. My background as a musician, I am very particular about instruments I choose to possess and play, and also make (I'm a musical instrument maker). For those who aren't interested, a classical guitar is a classical guitar, but for those ones who play, it matters how it feels, how it weighs, thickness of the neck, height of frets, how it sounds, how it balance and even the type of finish. Each player have different likes and dislikes, but in the end, for majority of audience, it doesn't make much difference if he or she is playing a guitar made by me or Torres, Romanillos, Fleta or others. For musicians, musical instruments are just that, instruments, tools. But some musical instruments are made such a way that it's inspiring to play. I don't see anything wrong with woodworkers making his/her tools as comfortable as possible in use or even inspiring even if it seems to go all against other's idea of how it should be.

For you, hard black Ark stone may suits you fine and be able to make wonderful stuff and I think many people can make wonderful stuff with the same equipment and sharpening setup as you. But, given a choice, they may prefer different setup in order to achieve 'just the right amount of comfort' and/or inspiration while working. I think it's a good thing everyone approached things slightly differently. If everyone stuck to published opinions and methods, that would be pretty boring. For the end product, it might not matter much how you sharpen or hone your tools, but while one works on it, it matters a whole lot.

[Steve Dallas]

I think sharpness one seeks in his/her tools is something akin to finding comfortable pair of shoes. Simply some shoes are more comfortable than others while same shoes might not work for others. My background as a musician, I am very particular about instruments I choose to possess and play, and also make (I'm a musical instrument maker). For those who aren't interested, a classical guitar is a classical guitar, but for those ones who play, it matters how it feels, how it weighs, thickness of the neck, height of frets, how it sounds, how it balance and even the type of finish. Each player have different likes and dislikes, but in the end, for majority of audience, it doesn't make much difference if he or she is playing a guitar made by me or Torres, Romanillos, Fleta or others. For musicians, musical instruments are just that, instruments, tools. But some musical instruments are made such a way that it's inspiring to play. I don't see anything wrong with woodworkers making his/her tools as comfortable as possible in use or even inspiring even if it seems to go all against other's idea of how it should be.

For you, hard black Ark stone may suits you fine and be able to make wonderful stuff and I think many people can make wonderful stuff with the same equipment and sharpening setup as you. But, given a choice, they may prefer different setup in order to achieve 'just the right amount of comfort' and/or inspiration while working. I think it's a good thing everyone approached things slightly differently. If everyone stuck to published opinions and methods, that would be pretty boring. For the end product, it might not matter much how you sharpen or hone your tools, but while one works on it, it matters a whole lot.

I think you're stretching a metaphor a little, don't you? Maybe a more apt one would be playing scales all the time but rarely an actual composition. And beyond that, parsing and analyzing said scale playing to the point one is an expert at playing scales and forgets why they even learned to play them at all, or can't translate their scale playing expertise into a coherent statement of their own musicianship.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I really understand what you are getting at. I, too, often feel that there is too much emphasis on tools without woodworking, or making something. Yes I know that sometimes it seems like everyone needs this tool and that jig in order to make X while our ancestors have done with a knife and saw, but simply because you or I don't share that interest or practice doesn't mean their opinion or practice is any less valid. Not every discussion has to be backed up with proof of their woodworking activities in order for their opinions to be considered valid either. They are interested in different approaches to an established process, that's all.

Also you seem to forget not everyone is doing this for a living. I get the feeling that for you, without the end result, it's utterly pointless doodle. Some people who play music enjoy doodling. They might never compose anything worthwhile, or even play in front of anyone, but if that's enjoyable, is there anything wrong with that? Some people may actually enjoying that doodling in woodworking, too. I don't see at which point you get to question their motivation for woodworking or simply showing interest in tools. If you want to disagree, great. If you want to debate, even better. I'm not saying you can't do these things.

As far as my previous post, no I don't see it a stretch at all actually. That's exactly how I feel about shoes, music and woodworking. And I'm actually glad I can find inspiration in the process of making something, not just the end product.

[Steve Dallas]

I really understand what you are getting at. I, too, often feel that there is too much emphasis on tools without woodworking, or making something. Yes I know that sometimes it seems like everyone needs this tool and that jig in order to make X while our ancestors have done with a knife and saw, but simply because you or I don't share that interest or practice doesn't mean their opinion or practice is any less valid. Not every discussion has to be backed up with proof of their woodworking activities in order for their opinions to be considered valid either. They are interested in different approaches to an established process, that's all.

Also you seem to forget not everyone is doing this for a living. I get the feeling that for you, without the end result, it's utterly pointless doodle. Some people who play music enjoy doodling. They might never compose anything worthwhile, or even play in front of anyone, but if that's enjoyable, is there anything wrong with that? Some people may actually enjoying that doodling in woodworking, too. I don't see at which point you get to question their motivation for woodworking or simply showing interest in tools. If you want to disagree, great. If you want to debate, even better. I'm not saying you can't do these things.

As far as my previous post, no I don't see it a stretch at all actually. That's exactly how I feel about shoes, music and woodworking. And I'm actually glad I can find inspiration in the process of making something, not just the end product.

Sam, people are free to do what they want in their respective shops. Once they start offering their overly intricate and quite unnecessary protocols and silly routines on a public forum it becomes another matter IMO. At that point, they've chosen to subject themselves and their modes of work to more scrutiny. If people don't want to be asked the simple and natural question, i.e. - just what is it that you do with all those uber-tuned tools, then maybe they ought to think twice before regurgitating woodworking supply company marketing fluff about half micron this and three micron that, stropping products on the sheet good du jour, and all the rest.

I don't think metaphors or analogies are needed at all. I offered the one piece pictured above as a matter of objective proof that you don't need all the hoo-hah and overhead to build what I think is reasonably decent furniture - two bench stones (medium India, black Ark.), a piece of belt leather, a few slips, and a super cheap grinder plus a little know-how go a long, long way.

There are absolutely lots of ways a craftsman can skin a cat, but some of this stuff is just absurd on its face and is offered by people who apparently don't even do much woodworking. I'm shocked that people are shocked they get called on it.

[David Weaver]

The only shocking thing is that you somehow have decided you are the ultimate authority about what method is minimalist and appropriate and what methods shouldn't be discussed on an internet forum..

.. and that you definitively decided that when you criticize someone else, that you've "called out" people, and "it is written" in a quasi religious sense.

I can't imagine being such a miserable .. every day. Are you sure you're not C. Stanfords brother...or maybe housemate?

[Will Blick]

Steve, please re-read Sam's well-wrriten post.... #74

Your response demonstrated you did not grasp what he (and others like myself) are trying to tell you....

[Orlando Gonzalez]

I can't imagine being such a miserable .. every day. Are you sure you're not C. Stanfords brother...or maybe housemate?

LOL Dave. I was thinking exactly the same thing. :D

[Steve Dallas]

The only shocking thing is that you somehow have decided you are the ultimate authority about what method is minimalist and appropriate and what methods shouldn't be discussed on an internet forum..

.. and that you definitively decided that when you criticize someone else, that you've "called out" people, and "it is written" in a quasi religious sense.

I can't imagine being such a miserable .. every day. Are you sure you're not C. Stanfords brother...or maybe housemate?

Building furniture is not a miserable activity. Put the Lee Valley catalog down and try it sometime.

[Dave Anderson NH]

All right people, back it off a bit. This is getting far too close to becoming a locked thread.

[David Weaver]

I mentioned I would try the green stuff from sears the next time I was in the shop, and I did.

It's plenty aggressive to use, definitely not the same thing as the stuff that LV/Rockler/Woodcraft sell, at least not the binder - it's a harder stick.

IIRC, they were $2.29 per stick (at sears), perfectly suitable to make a tote-around hone or something to run a chisel across while you're working so you don't have to head back to the stones.

[Steve Dallas]

I mentioned I would try the green stuff from sears the next time I was in the shop, and I did.

It's plenty aggressive to use, definitely not the same thing as the stuff that LV/Rockler/Woodcraft sell, at least not the binder - it's a harder stick.

IIRC, they were $2.29 per stick (at sears), perfectly suitable to make a tote-around hone or something to run a chisel across while you're working so you don't have to head back to the stones.

A 'tote around hone?' You must have a really large shop.

[David Weaver]

I feel like the dog at the dog run who walks around with another dog sniffing his butt the whole time.

Part of my shop is unheated - a garage under the house. I also have a bench in my basement (which is heated), other side of the house. When I'm working on something small, like plane parts, or drawer sides, I can dimension the pieces in the shop in the cold and then head over into the basement to work.

I keep a strop and a coarse diamond stone in the basement. They're unrelated.

I'm sure you can find all sorts of problems with that and have an infantile response. Way to shoot a thread where someone had a legitimate question into something that'll end up getting locked, you added nothing at all to this thread except tooting your own horn.

[Steve Dallas]

I feel like the dog at the dog run who walks around with another dog sniffing his butt the whole time.

Part of my shop is unheated - a garage under the house. I also have a bench in my basement (which is heated), other side of the house. When I'm working on something small, like plane parts, or drawer sides, I can dimension the pieces in the shop in the cold and then head over into the basement to work.

I keep a strop and a coarse diamond stone in the basement. They're unrelated.

I'm sure you can find all sorts of problems with that and have an infantile response. Way to shoot a thread where someone had a legitimate question into something that'll end up getting locked, you added nothing at all to this thread except tooting your own horn.

I'd just buy another purpose-made fine stone under the not even barely rebuttable presumption and that in the fullness of time it would beat hell out of green rouge crayon on a piece of MDF. I might even glue some 2000 grit down on a piece of glass and leave it where it's needed.

But that's just me being me.

I'll have a set of eight chairs finished soon. Hepplewhite shield-backs. I'll post pics when the upholstery is done. Still used the same crappy medium India and black Ark to sharpen the tools used to build them. What you got going on in your shop?

[David Weaver]

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, for two reasons:

1) MDF with autosol or green stuff cuts faster and finer than either 2000 grit sandpaper or a black arkansas, the only nod would be to new sandpaper, but sandpaper doesn't have the new feel very long, and it's a serious pain if you side sharpen or freehand and cut the paper

2) it works as well as a fine stone. There aren't many I haven't tried.

Also, this is the last time I'll entertain a question of yours. You obviously have problems unrelated to woodworking, and you're more than willing to entertain a *guess* about other people's posts. I haven't yet seen one positive offering of yours to anyone's questions - just third party trolling.

But the answer to your question is:

In my shop, two infill planes, a half set of h&Rs to replace a harlequin set and the blanket chest with legs from FWW in the late '90s. If you don't think those are worthy projects, well...who cares?

You're building something? I must've missed the post where someone asked you to talk about it.

[Ben West]

Back to the original intent of this thread, and to answer a question that was asked at the very beginning.

What would motivate someone to use MDF as a strop instead of leather? Easy...

1) It works at least as well as a leather strop, and
2) I have lots of MDF laying around the shop, but no leather. Why would I go buy something when I have loads of free substitutes that work just as well?

I'm just saying....

[Steve Dallas]

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, for two reasons:

1) MDF with autosol or green stuff cuts faster and finer than either 2000 grit sandpaper or a black arkansas, the only nod would be to new sandpaper, but sandpaper doesn't have the new feel very long, and it's a serious pain if you side sharpen or freehand and cut the paper

2) it works as well as a fine stone. There aren't many I haven't tried.

Also, this is the last time I'll entertain a question of yours. You obviously have problems unrelated to woodworking, and you're more than willing to entertain a *guess* about other people's posts. I haven't yet seen one positive offering of yours to anyone's questions - just third party trolling.

But the answer to your question is:

In my shop, two infill planes, a half set of h&Rs to replace a harlequin set and the blanket chest with legs from FWW in the late '90s. If you don't think those are worthy projects, well...who cares?

You're building something? I must've missed the post where someone asked you to talk about it.

David, all you've got to do is show us some woodworking.

And you are right, I don't have a freakin' clue what Autosol is. None whatsoever. Couldn't care less either. While you're expounding its virtues (whatever the bleedin' hell it is) I'm building chairs with real wood, with real tools, with real sharp edges.

Again, what are you building?

[David Weaver]

Again, what are you building?

Are you really that lacking in basic comprehension? Did you really not gather that the list of items i stated after "in my shop" are WIP?

Somehow, I get the sense that Steve Dallas isn't your real name.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think it's a comic character's name. Well, he demands a lot of credibility from others for someone using alias, though.

[Derek Cohen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dallas :)

http://sidesalad.net/archives/SteveDallas2Jpg.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Goodman]

I think it's been many posts since I've heard anything about "Honing Compound on MDF"!!!!

[george wilson]

Autosol is an excellent metal polish made in Germany. We used it to re polish items at Williamsburg (not antique items). We also put it on strops. Worked fine. Nuf'said.

[Steve Dallas]

Autosol is an excellent metal polish made in Germany. We used it to re polish items at Williamsburg (not antique items). We also put it on strops. Worked fine. Nuf'said.

I'm sure it's a fine product.

[Steve Dallas]

Are you really that lacking in basic comprehension? Did you really not gather that the list of items i stated after "in my shop" are WIP?

Somehow, I get the sense that Steve Dallas isn't your real name.

Funny you ask. My name is actually David Weaver (no joking, it's really true). The forum name was already taken so Steve Dallas was the first thing that came to mind.

Clear your WIP and post some pics.

[David Weaver]

You must've missed the posts of my last two infills.

I'll post some of the rest of the stuff the day after you're banned for using a fake ID. No, really, it's true!

Why would I post pictures for your edification when you are too much of a coward to use your real name? I'd rather you sit around and believe that I don't build anything.

By the way, you still may not be who i'm guessing you are, especially after seeing the awful finish work on the table you posted.

[george wilson]

You are really hot,David!! but,I think you are allowed to use whatever name you want. On other forums,people use all kinds of names,numbers,etc..

I don't know. I've certainly kept up with your work.

Steve,you really have been pretty hard on some guys lately. I've gotten tired myself of endless discussions of how to sharpen,matte vs. shiny. It does go on forever. But,once you or I or anyone has said his piece,there is nothing more to do,really. This is a home shop type forum,and some guys get peculiar ideas how to do things.

[Tim Put]

You may call them "peculiar ideas", but the simple fact is they do work.
Traditional methods work, that's why they are traditional.
New methods work too, often arriving as new materials become affordable.
There are three sharpening mediums with which a can make an edge sharp enough that when you touch a hair to it (away from skin) the hair just sort of folds over. If that's not sharp enough for you say so, though I won't believe you. All three are as fast or faster than stones. They are: 3m microabrasives, 0.5u diamond paste on either mdf or acrylic/polycarbonate, and powered strops.

[Tim Put]

You are really hot,David!! but,I think you are allowed to use whatever name you want. On other forums,people use all kinds of names,numbers,etc..

It's certainly not illegal (except oddly in S.Korea) to use a fake name on the Internet, but that it not what is in question. It's against the Sawmill Creek TOS to use a fake name, and they have every right legal and ethical to kick someone off for failling to comply with the TOS.

[Chris Griggs]

Building furniture is not a miserable activity. Put the Lee Valley catalog down and try it sometime.

This is a funny conversation. I never thought MDF could generate so much controversy. The ironic thing is, I just ordered a router plane from lee valley, partially based on some advice Steve posted in another thread. Maybe that wasn't your intention Steve, but I clicked "buy" after I read your post stating how very important a router plane is. Now I can in fact put the catalog down and go build some furniture.;) - (Please note friendly smiley face)

[george wilson]

I didn't mean to necessarily imply peculiar in a bad way. Used the wrong word. Here goes again: guys often develop their own ways of doing things,and then want to write about them.

[Mark Roderick]

Speaking as someone who has fallen into the trap many times himself, isn't it amazing how aggravated we can become reading messages on an internet forum? We (I) get so bothered when other people don't see the world as we (I) do! We use Sawmill Creek for information, but most of us also use it because we enjoy woodworking and like to talk about it. Therefore, the rule should probably be that if a message isn't enjoyable for us to post, we shouldn't post it.

[Will Blick]

> Therefore, the rule should probably be that if a message isn't enjoyable for us to post, we shouldn't post it.


Or even more important, if a post (or thread) is not enjoyable to read, don't read it! People forget this!