What's up with Deals and Discounts?

[Howard Klepper]

Sorry to post this here, but the mods have not responded to my question, which is: Why have I recently been denied access to the Deals and Discounts forum? What do I have to do to get the decoder ring?

[Van Huskey]

Sorry to post this here, but the mods have not responded to my question, which is: Why have I recently been denied access to the Deals and Discounts forum? What do I have to do to get the decoder ring?

Become a contributor. $6 for a years access.

[Glenn Clabo]

Only contributors have access.

[glenn bradley]

Yep, a whole $6. I got my money's worth the first few visit ;-) Been a member ever since. I just auto-renew; not because I am dedicated . . . I'm just lazy ;-))

P.s. This is a recent change to better serve the folks who pay to advertise here, if I understand it correctly. Do a search and I think you'll find a few conversations as to the how's and why's.

[Mike OMelia]

Hey Howard... I have no idea... I thought the $6 was for the CLASSIFIEDS, not Deals & Discounts. Plus, I though you were a paid contributor anyways... didn't you try to sell your drum sander here?

Mike

[Van Huskey]

I thought the $6 was for the CLASSIFIEDS, not Deals & Discounts.

Mike

The policy changed in the last week.

[Richard Blaine]

Only contributors have access.
The new policy means us members won't be posting the deals or discounts we hear about.

I guess the contributors don't need to know about them.

[Dave MacArthur]

Or you could become a contributor ;) Rather than taking an angry attitude against folks who've decided they like this forum enough to sacrifice one six-pack a year for it's continued good health. Like Glenn said up above, I believe the change helps support SMC's survival as a viable place for advertisers to spend $ and not be on an equal footing with non-paying companies posting ads in the discounts forum.

I just bought a FWW and a ShopNotes mag to read last weekend, both cost me around $6 each. They had 7 articles maybe, I was only interested in 3 or 4, and none of the articles were as thorough and informative as 20 threads I read here each day. I like to think I'm the kind of guy that will support something great that I enjoy with $6 of effort a year.

Everyone's decisions and situation are their own of course, but I sure can't see having an attitude because some other feller ponied up $6...

[Larry Rasmussen]

.................... you make someone that would come back again and again, participate in the deals board but still not cough up six bucks to help keep things running sound kinda cheap.

[Keith Outten]

In order for us to keep all of our woodworking forums open to everyone for free we need Advertisers and Contributors at this point. The Deals and Discounts Forum being open to everyone to post free advertisements was having an impact on our ability to market banner ads. Rather than close the D&D Forum we decided to restrict access, it is still here for everyone who is interested in becoming a Contributor and is still very active.

The annual donation of 6 dollars is just 50 cents per month, we felt that even a student could afford to participate at this level if they have interest and it is less than the cost of going to just one movie. We may be able to provide Contributor status to everyone for free, if in the future our Friends of The Creek directory is successful. This would be a preferred option however it depends entirely on the numbers.

Years ago when SawMill Creek was owned by Hampton Roads Online we provided the service absolutely free with no advertisers. We had plenty of bandwidth we weren't using and lots of server space. We had a network administrator who was paid by our Internet customers so we operated The Creek as a community service.

When our Internet Company closed its doors in October of 2005 the majority here wanted us to keep The Creek online. Our only option at that time was to purchase The Creek from our partners and sign a contract with a local bandwidth provider. The legal risks of owning a service like this one is substantial so we had to incorporate my sign business and transfer ownership to Northwind Associates to stay online. Given our growth since 2005 our expenses have continued to grow as well. If we hadn't transferred The Creek to Northwind it wouldn't exist today simply because of the personal financial risks my family would have to bare. Northwind Associates Inc. is a corporation so we have taxes to pay and people who must be compensated for their time. We have monthly bandwidth bills, annual software license fees, and hardware that must be replaced every 24 months.

My one-man, part time sign business cannot provide the funds to run SawMill Creek, so we need your help.
.

[John Mark Lane]

I've been on a lot of Boards in a lot of topic areas for a long time. I started doing this back around 1980, when "electronic bulletin boards" were the thing, it was text only, and monitors were monochrome. I have many interests, and have been active in boards related to music theory, piano, guitar, recorder and mandolin, leatherworking, backpacking, kayaking and canoeing, Golden Retrievers, old Jeeps, motorcycles and a number of other topics. I was also a regular on the old rec.woodworking, back when it was full of good ole Galoots, and also on the Old Tools listserve years ago.

This Board is one of the two or three best I've seen on the Internet. That doesn't "just happen", and it does cost money.

I'm always baffled when people criticize the decisions of the site owners or moderators, but don't feel any compulsion to make even a small contribution to the site. You pay for magazine and newspaper subscriptions. You pay for your coffee. These are not government subsidized services.

I made a contribution (larger than suggested) here soon after registering, and will make one each year (and probably more often). Happy to do it. Very happy to do it.

Thanks, Keith. Really, it's a top notch site!

[Dave Gaul]

My family didn't eat for a week when I ponied up the cash for SMC... but it was soooooooooooo worth it!!!:D

[Keith Westfall]

In order for us to keep all of our woodworking forums open to everyone for free we need Advertisers and Contributors at this point.

Keith,

It's too bad that you feel the need to justify your actions and decisions in running "The Creek".

If an individual doesn't feel it is worth $6 to access everything, then they should go elsewhere! The Creek offers WAY more than a meesly $6 will get you anywhere else.

Even for the cost of being a "Friend of the Creek" is cheep when you consider what you get.

Hopefully you will be able to keep up the good work we (and the freeloaders) will all be able to continue to enjoy. This is a top notch forum and worth every penny of the price of admission!

Thanks for all of your efforts to continue to bring it to all of us.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Keith. Very well stated. I'm sure this will put an end to the complaining. I hope it encourages more people to contribute.

[Rob Damon]

Keith,

I agree with you on setting the site up for success. I ask a question some time ago and never got a response. Hopefully, someone can chime in now.

A few years back when found this site I became a contributor and instead of the $6 donation, I put in $50 to help for those that did not contribute. The following year at renewal time, I PM to ask a question,but I was a week beyond the 1 year time, so I hit the wall of "no responses to non-contributors". It kind of tweaked my feathers considering had I just ponyed up the standard $6 that year and last year and this year, I would only be $18 into the creek, instead of $50 and considered an "outsider-member". The $50 spent at $6 per year would have carried me through 8 years of "in good standing" with the community. But I got over it and moved on.

I hate renew yearly on anything. When I subscribe to magizines I always go for 3-5 year so I don't have to worry about it and when you subscribe to 8-10 magazines it become less to worry about.

So my question before and still is: Why can't we subscribe for multiple years or a one time " lifetime" member and have a designation as such. Personnally, I would rather (knowing that this is a great place and is here for the long run) pluck down a one time fee ( $6/per x 50 years = $300) and shoot you off a one time check, become a "lifetime" member and not ever have to think about it again.

Just curious. Thanks.

Rob

[Matt Meiser]

Rob, I'm pretty sure if you order 1 year, more than once you get years added on. I believe this because my expiration date is more than a year out and I contributed a couple times last year. You can also set up a monthly recurring subscription.

I know Keith didn't do this at first because it was all manual so they just did everyone on a calendar-year basis. Then the vBulletin software added subscription support and they went to using that (which co-incidentally tells you that by far this isn't the only forum that has a subscription model.)

[Nathan Yeager]

Please take no offense, but I am just curious. Is this a for-profit site?

[Ted Calver]

Rob,
Consider becoming a stealth Friend of the Creek. I set up a recurring paypal donation of $5 per month a couple of years? ago when Jackie made it possible. It just keeps on ticking until I turn it off. Works for me, but I don't know how many others.

[Montgomery Scott]

You spelled "measly" and "cheap" incorrectly. HTH.

[Keith Outten]

Keith,

I agree with you on setting the site up for success. I ask a question some time ago and never got a response. Hopefully, someone can chime in now.

A few years back when found this site I became a contributor and instead of the $6 donation, I put in $50 to help for those that did not contribute. The following year at renewal time, I PM to ask a question,but I was a week beyond the 1 year time, so I hit the wall of "no responses to non-contributors". It kind of tweaked my feathers considering had I just ponyed up the standard $6 that year and last year and this year, I would only be $18 into the creek, instead of $50 and considered an "outsider-member". The $50 spent at $6 per year would have carried me through 8 years of "in good standing" with the community. But I got over it and moved on.

I hate renew yearly on anything. When I subscribe to magizines I always go for 3-5 year so I don't have to worry about it and when you subscribe to 8-10 magazines it become less to worry about.

So my question before and still is: Why can't we subscribe for multiple years or a one time " lifetime" member and have a designation as such. Personnally, I would rather (knowing that this is a great place and is here for the long run) pluck down a one time fee ( $6/per x 50 years = $300) and shoot you off a one time check, become a "lifetime" member and not ever have to think about it again.

Just curious. Thanks.

Rob

Rob,

Matt is correct in that vBulletin has only recently added a subscription system that we felt would work for this Community. The old manual system was done on a year by year basis so we didn't offer multiple year subscriptions which we do provide now. The max the system will allow is through the year 2033 the last time I checked.

Sorry about not responding to your email. Jackie and I try to respond to everyone but it is a full time job and more. On any given day we may have plenty of time allocated to answer mail and Private Messages then the next day we can't get to the mail at all, it depends on what is going on behind the scenes.

If you can provide the transaction number I would be glad to post the additional time to your account. On our end its not how much anyone donates that is important, it is that they donate. We really appreciate those who take their time to make a donation here, the six dollar donations add up over the year but the percentage of people who support The Creek is what is most important to us. We do provide free account upgrades to those who need a helping hand periodically. Whenever a situation is brought to our attention we upgrade accounts on the spot without hesitation. Many people here have been generous, as you have, and made larger donations to cover those who are in need of help. We always have enough funds to cover these situations and even if we didn't Jackie and I would be glad to help anyone who belongs to this Community.

Many here will tell you that I have been more than willing to take their phone calls if they need help. In some cases I have been on the phone for up to two hours, and I don't mind. I have helped a number of people here ascertain support from vendors who had refused to help them with a defective product. I will bring the entire weight of this Community down on any vendor or manufacturer if the situation warrants and our Member is in need of help. I have done this many times.

We have just completed our 176th FreeStuff Drawing plus the Stinger CNC prize that Jackie and I provided 50% of the funding required to make it happen. These drawings are time consuming and they don't produce any funds for The Creek. Its a proven fact that very few people become Contributors here just to be eligible for the drawings. We host FreeStuff Drawings because everyone loves to win a prize and people are generally happy to see one of their friends win.

There is much more going on here than most know, but there those who can tell another side to the story about what it means to be a part of this Community. If I don't answer your email this evening I might be helping someone get a replacement table saw or negotiating to have a $15,000.00 laser engraver that doesn't work replaced.

Hey Keith can you help me out!!!

You Bet!!!
.

[Ryan Bess]

A wealth of information here for only $6/year. If anything, I sometimes feel guilty for the low price of admission!

[Glenn Clabo]

SawmillCreek.org is wholly owned and operated by Northwind Associates, Incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

[Gary Muto]

I happily give $6 to this site. I did so even before there were limits to any access. I also support the decision to limit access to visitors with the motive to advertise for free under the guise of an objective tip on a legitimate deal.

[Richard McComas]

The new policy means us members won't be posting the deals or discounts we hear about.
It also means members can't read what deals and discounts contributors post.

I guess the members don't need to know about them. Looks like a two way street.

[Josh Reet]

I'm not sure how many people here have the experience of doing what Keith et al are doing with SWC (though I do know there are a few). But as someone who runs a forum/community site significantly larger than this one, let me just say this:

There are no easy decisions. Nothing can ever be done in such a way that everyone will be happy and the business will pay the bills. You do the best you can for the largest number of people while still making sure you aren't running the place into the ground.

The days of "everything is free" on the internet are long gone. Virtually all websites of any real size have to pull their own weight now. That means there will be ads or subscriptions, or some combination of the two. There is just no way around it. Nobody is standing in the shadows paying for new server hardware or fiber optic lines or programmer time. Just like keeping the lights on in your local WW store, these are all expenses that have to be paid.

SWC is a great site with a ton of information and resources that are virtually all provided free. Having a few areas of the site off-limits to those who don't feel the need to pony up a few bucks is a logical choice for the people running SWC to make. Don't forget, there are other much worse choices they could have made (netflix pop ups anyone?) But in my opinion, this was the way to go in terms of maximizing revenue and minimizing disruption and user annoyance.

[Lee Schierer]

SawmillCreek.org is wholly owned and operated by Northwind Associates, Incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

What Glenn didn't say is that Keith & Company are trying to make it pay for the resources it consumes so it is self supporting, not a cost our of his pocket.....

[Rob Damon]

Rob,

"The max the system will allow is through the year 2033 the last time I checked."

.

Thanks, Keith.

Depending on how tomorrow goes, I may swing by and put a check in your mail box.

I have to run my JD riding lawn mower up to Chimney lawnmowers for some warranty repair work tomorrow which is right on RT. 17 up at White Marsh, just up the road from you.

Would still like to get a tour of your CNC when you have a free moment some day.

Rob

[Keith Outten]

Rob,

Your welcome to visit any time. I may be here tomorrow, I have the day off.

In two to three more weeks I should have a CAMaster Stinger with the lathe attached in my shop as well as my ShopBot PRT Alpha.
.

[David Prince]

I have been unable to search deals and discounts for several weeks now. I have given this some thought and just wanted to post my thoughts and get it off my chest.

I think SMC has the right to run this forum as they wish. I am not against that.

I don't have any financial problems that would limit me from contributing. I just haven't as of yet.

The deals and discounts was a motivating factor for me to visit SMC on a regular basis. Now, I barely come by.

My question would be to ponder the following. Has the Deals and Discounts area improved? I would have thought that it took both members and contributors to make it great. We needed lots of eyes and ears out there to sniff out the bargains. I think the deals and discounts probably has been impacted. Now, if I were to become a contributor, is Deals and Discounts still a source of bargains or is it a ghost-town?

SMC may have had good intentions, but it would seem that this will hurt the deals and discounts in the long run more that help the banner ads.

There is always several solutions to most problems. It would seem that there must have been another solution that wasn't tried.

[Van Huskey]

I have been unable to search deals and discounts for several weeks now. I have given this some thought and just wanted to post my thoughts and get it off my chest.

I think SMC has the right to run this forum as they wish. I am not against that.

I don't have any financial problems that would limit me from contributing. I just haven't as of yet.

The deals and discounts was a motivating factor for me to visit SMC on a regular basis. Now, I barely come by.

My question would be to ponder the following. Has the Deals and Discounts area improved? I would have thought that it took both members and contributors to make it great. We needed lots of eyes and ears out there to sniff out the bargains. I think the deals and discounts probably has been impacted. Now, if I were to become a contributor, is Deals and Discounts still a source of bargains or is it a ghost-town?

SMC may have had good intentions, but it would seem that this will hurt the deals and discounts in the long run more that help the banner ads.

There is always several solutions to most problems. It would seem that there must have been another solution that wasn't tried.


IMO D&D has not dried up, the number of postings may be down a little but frankly the quality overall seems to be better. Again, IMO if you don't save over $6.00 a year using the D&D forum you don't buy much if anything in the way of new tools. I saved several hundred dollars the first couple of weeks I was here from the D&D forum so I figure I am covered for years even if I never get another great deal.

[Leigh Betsch]

I just wrote a big long reply but I realized that the OP has become a contributor so I deleted it. I'll save it for a future fight with someone with non-contributor views.
Welcome aboard Howard!

[Steven DeMars]

I gotta know . . . who are these people that cringe at $6.00 a year.

That's 11.5 cents a week.

It's 2010.

What kind of woodworkers are they . . . do they gnaw branches off of their neighbors trees & shape them with edged rocks?

Do they buy tools, software, plans, anything?

A fricking Big Mac & fries is right at $6.00.

A pack of cigarettes is $4.00.

A 6-pack is at least $5.00 if you can stand the horse pi$$ taste.

Even the Una-bomber spent money on a newspaper at least once a week.

Thats less than good an eight pack of tissue paper.

This is a fantastic site with tons & tons of information. The tips on woodworking and equipment have saved me a lot of dollars.

Oh, to all you people who are offended by my comments please feel free to flame the crap out of me if you can pull yourself away from recycling your tissue long enough. I heard you can still get buffalo nickels. You guys could see if you could squeeze some manure out of them for your garden. I'm assuming you raise your own food.

Sorry about the rant, but it's bad enough to go work everyday, pay taxes and have turn on the news and hear the "freeloaders" whining. Now this crap about $6.00 a year for a site that offers so much.

Lets be honest, if you are on here you are not homeless and hungry. It's bad enough to hear lazy people that won't work whine, but when you gotta hear it from people who have a hobby that a lot of people could only dream of having is really hard to take.

If it was my site, it would be paid member only ! ! !

By the way, I'm no big $$$ contributor. I believe I buy a hat once a year or PayPal for dues or maybe a few bucks more.

Moderators please feel free to ZAP my post if you think it will offend the "Penny Pincher's".

P.S.

What makes some of these ask "Is this site a non-profit site?"

Sure it is, some idiot woke up one morning and bought thousands of dollars worth of computers and software, spends hundreds of hours a year at a computer screen, recruits moderators, enlist his wife to spend all her spare time keeping up with the $$$ & cents all so your tight a$$ doesn't have to spend one penny to buy a magazine to find out how to build a bookcase.

My God where was he when I was selling AMWAY 30 years ago.

My 2 cents,
Steve

[Lorne Steed]

Keith; I just wanted to say thanks for running a great site that is a wealth of information to me. I am more than happy to contribute and when asked to become a contributor last year I was happy to do so and volunteered 20 bucks because I thought that 6 dollars was just not enough to keep things going. When you had the friends of the creek thing started I decided to become one- mostly because I just wanted to help out. The thought of winning a CNC never crossed my mind LOL. Anyway I am a furniture and cabinet finisher who also does part time woodworking and this site has provided me with invaluable help with my woodworking endeavors so many thanks again and to all who may wonder if a contribution is worth it I say that if you find yourself here reading away everyday then the answer is obvious!

Lorne Steed

[Leigh Betsch]

I gotta know . . . who are these people that cringe at $6.00 a year.


My 2 cents,
Steve

+1, Make it 4 cents.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks to all of you for your support and for providing the necessary funds for us to continue on for the last seven years.

Concerning the Deals and Discounts Forum I believe it will improve over time simply because we won't have people registering and paying six bucks just to advertise their products. What we have now are members of this Community who are posting real bargains they have found which is preferable to the way it used to be. If the volume decreases because we don't have trash advertising anymore that is an improvement.

If it becomes obvious that we made a mistake we will correct it in time. We make mistakes periodically, over the last seven years we tried lots of things here that didn't pan out and some that everyone has enjoyed. The main thing to remember is that we aren't afraid to add features and try a new approach to an old way of doing things if we think, or if it has been suggested to us, it is best for this Community.

Some people are against change. Any decision we make will be unpopular with a certain number of people yet others will feel differently. One thing we have learned is that certain things need to remain constant and at the same time we need to embrace some changes to keep things interesting. The Friends of The Creek feature here is young and unproven however we are still working on the new Directory service and plan to continue improving it because we feel it has long term benefits for this Community. A new feature will be added soon that will allow FOTC subscribers to add a signature link to their FOTC record. This takes some programing to accomplish but Aaron has it on his work list.

Another big change is just around the corner. We will be installing the new server that we purchased in December, I know it has been a long time coming but we have to work these kinds of jobs into our schedule. Most of the people here know that our Server Admin Aaron Koehl is working on his Doctorate degree at William and Mary. Aaron must work major jobs around his scholastic schedule which obviously has top priority.

What you will see on your end very soon is a major software upgrade to vBulletin 4 which is a publishing based platform. There will be more support for articles and reviews and a new main page, our forums will remain unchanged for the most part. I am sure that some will dislike the changes but I am also sure that the majority here will enjoy new features, options and the change in the presentation.

SawMill Creek must continue to flow, or risk becoming stagnant and cease to exist.
.

[Keith Outten]

Now let me take a few minutes of your time to discuss the financial side of The Creek. I have no intention of sharing our financial statements publicly but I will share some information that you should know.

The new server we purchased is the most expensive machine we have ever considered and it is amazing to me that we could afford this level of technology. We purchased enough ram for the new server to be able to absorb the whole shebang here, digital drives to keep things fast and SATA drives to keep things reliable. The processors are state of the art and were not cheap.

Our labor expense has continued to increase as we have grown, we are currently expending three times the man hours that we had to provide just a couple of years ago. Rather than beat you all over the head begging for money we have increased our Marketing effort to try and keep banner ads here. We are selling our DVD Archives, T-Shirts, hats and have put a lot of hours into the Friends of The Creek directory in an effort to remain financially healthy through some very difficult economic times.

After the last fund drive we had here it was very clear that donations continued to decrease even though registrations continued to increase. It was clear that we had to make some adjustments or go off-line. Against my own preference I decided that we had to convert over to a commercially funded web site, at least a potion of our funds had to come from another source. You can't have it all, there has to be some impact here when we had to embrace commercial advertising. My hands were tied, this decision was actually made by the majority here.

The changes have been reasonably successful but the cost has been a huge increase in the man hours we must spend to keep our woodworking forums open for everyone to enjoy for free. As labor is almost always the largest part of any budget and our labor hours tripled we have had to work harder on behind the scenes jobs than we prefer. I admit that our Administrative coverage has declined these last few years but we have made sacrifices in this area to keep things on your side of The Creek running.

Our total income has continued to grow but after taxes and overhead expenses we are just barely turning a profit. Believe me I am pleased that we are able to continue without suffering a loss, that is all that matters. I know that the suggested six dollar donation is insignificant to the average woodworkers budget but it adds up over a years time and we can't exist at the level of performance you expect without your support.
.

[Steven DeMars]

Just a thought. . .

I leave my advertising banner on all the time.

Perhaps we could ALL leave the banner running. Maybe this would give the site better numbers when seeking advertisers.

It would be a small contribution that cost nothing . . .

Just a thought . . .:)
Steve

[Kent A Bathurst]

Late to the party, but...........

I spent many years on airplanes about 45 weeks a year. Back 3-4 years ago, I could not for the life of me figure out the math that would let Delta drag my sorry butt from Atlanta to The Left Coast and back for $200 or so round trip. Turns out they (and no one else, either) could do it profitably.

Is there a point? Yes - I also could not do the math to figure out how SMC could be operating (operating period - not "profitably" - just paying the bills) off of a lousy $6 out of my pocket once per year. So I threw in some more money. It is a "pay-for-value" attitude I have - on both sides of the transaction - I am happy to pay for value, and I expect to get paid for value. I love a great deal as much as the next guy, but never at the expense of the other person - that's no source of pride for me personally.

When I threw in the extra bucks - all of a sudden, I saw I was credited with a whole buncha extra time as a contributor. Hmmm....not my original plan.....so I have selected my birthday as the "re-up" date. The way I see it, if I have figured out how to live for another whole year, then there must have been, by definition, a coupla posts that were worth it.

On the topic of "D&D excludes Members, who add worthwhile stuff to D&D" - I'm sure that's true. Hooowever......not to pick a fight.......I haven't seen the ubiquitous HF 2HP DC post in a while.........Cause + effect, perhaps? Kinda like autumn comes, and all of a sudden I notice there are no mosquitos buzzing around.

[Joe Leigh]

Not to continue a fight not picked....but it's safe to assume that there are more than a few "contributers" who own the HF 2HP dust collector.

Then again maybe contributions should be mandatory, this way we might have a few more Festool and SawStop threads.......oooppps, there's that darn mosquito again...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Guys,

Mandatory contributions have been discussed and argued many times......here in the public view and in the Moderators Forum.

The feeling is that Members contribute a lot of information and Contributors contribute a lot of information.

For various reasons some Members don't feel obligated or can't afford to putup the $6 a year. Myself and others have volunteered to pay the Contributor fees for various Members so they would have access to all the benefits SMC has to offer.

In the end, SawMillCreek is about sharing information......from beginners to pros.....we can all learn from each other .......share information and maybe make a few friends in the process and do it in a civil fashion.

If you can and feel the urge please Contribute. Keith and Jackie have spent countless hours and many thousands of dollars keeping SMC alive these many years. To Keith it's as more about showing you care enough to contribute $6 as it is the $6, itself.

[scott vroom]

I have been unable to search deals and discounts for several weeks now. I have given this some thought and just wanted to post my thoughts and get it off my chest.

I think SMC has the right to run this forum as they wish. I am not against that.

I don't have any financial problems that would limit me from contributing. I just haven't as of yet.

The deals and discounts was a motivating factor for me to visit SMC on a regular basis. Now, I barely come by.

My question would be to ponder the following. Has the Deals and Discounts area improved? I would have thought that it took both members and contributors to make it great. We needed lots of eyes and ears out there to sniff out the bargains. I think the deals and discounts probably has been impacted. Now, if I were to become a contributor, is Deals and Discounts still a source of bargains or is it a ghost-town?

SMC may have had good intentions, but it would seem that this will hurt the deals and discounts in the long run more that help the banner ads.

There is always several solutions to most problems. It would seem that there must have been another solution that wasn't tried.

David, I can't believe you're even asking that question. Come on, man, we're talking about $6.00 per year to find out! That's less than 2 cents/day, brotha! Tell you what: if you can't afford the $6 then I'll pay it for you. Let me know.

[Cliff Holmes]

If an individual doesn't feel it is worth $6 to access everything, then they should go elsewhere! The Creek offers WAY more than a meesly $6 will get you anywhere else

Against my better judgement, I'll step into this maelstrom again ... :)

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. It's a mistake to say that what SMC offers is worth paying the $6 a year. The fact is that you get X for nothing, for $6 you get X plus very little else. The incremental increase in features for the incremental cost is so small that most people will simply not see any value in it. They get everything they really want for free.

Also, keep in mind that 99.9% of the reason people come to SMC is not provided by SMC. The knowledge and help that make this place appealing are provided by the people visiting, not the people running it. Think about it, if SMC shuts down tomorrow morning, the exact same people will be doing the exact same stuff somewhere else by tomorrow afternoon. The fundamental problem is that SMC is not unique. The content isn't original, the people are not exclusive, the forum software is a commercial product. Its only differentiating factor vs other forums is its size and I don't see anything special here to account for that.

One of the fundamental rules of marketing is "don't blame the customer". If they don't want your product, calling them stupid isn't helping.

[Kent A Bathurst]

........ this way we might have a few more Festool and SawStop threads.......oooppps, there's that darn mosquito again...

and I had just cleaned off my monitor.............:D

[Marty Paulus]

Hmm $6 out of my pocket to help assure this site will be here when I need to figure out a better way of doing something. Well I can go without that Cigar tonight for that.

$6 out of my pocket to get a recommendation on a tool purchase. I can skip that 6 pack.

$6 out of my pocket to improve my skills so my wife will enjoy and be extra proud of what I have made. Honey you can't have that one pack of cigarettes (Steve They are $6 a pack up here :()

$6 out of my pocket for recomendation on what to do to tune up the tools I currently have. I can pack a lunch for a couple of days instead of buying it.

Most of us have that much change laying about either in the car or container that we empty our pockets into at night.

All in all worth every penny to me. I don't do much woodworking in the summer months so I am not on here daily. With the short summers here I try to do my other hobbies that require the warm weather (Read getting out on my boat, fixing my boat, cleaning my boat....). Once the boat is put away in early Oct. my time is then spent in the garage and this forum is invaluable.

Keith you are doing a great job. There is an old saying that you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of time but you cannot please all of the people all of the time.

Keep up the great work.

[scott vroom]

Against my better judgement, I'll step into this maelstrom again ... :)

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. It's a mistake to say that what SMC offers is worth paying the $6 a year. The fact is that you get X for nothing, for $6 you get X plus very little else. The incremental increase in features for the incremental cost is so small that most people will simply not see any value in it. They get everything they really want for free.

Also, keep in mind that 99.9% of the reason people come to SMC is not provided by SMC. The knowledge and help that make this place appealing are provided by the people visiting, not the people running it. Think about it, if SMC shuts down tomorrow morning, the exact same people will be doing the exact same stuff somewhere else by tomorrow afternoon. The fundamental problem is that SMC is not unique. The content isn't original, the people are not exclusive, the forum software is a commercial product. Its only differentiating factor vs other forums is its size and I don't see anything special here to account for that.

One of the fundamental rules of marketing is "don't blame the customer". If they don't want your product, calling them stupid isn't helping.

I guess it really comes down to whether or not you believe 1) that SMC can exist in it's present state without subscriber donations, and 2) that there are other woodworking forums out there that offer the same value as SMC without charging membership fees. I believe the answer to both questions is "no". If you don't agree then please point me to the other forums.

[Mike Cruz]

Food? Who cares about not eating?! I gave up ALCOHOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Will Overton]

There is one thing that has kept me from contributing;

"Donations higher than $6 are always welcome, but will count toward the current year subscription."

I don't use PayPal, and they don't take credit cards. If I could write 1 check and mail it in for a 5 year subscription I would do it. I hate writing checks or renewing things. In fact I opened my current checking account 5 years ago and just used up the book of starter checks.

Make a multi-year subscription available and I'm in.

[Wayne Hendrix]

... If you can and feel the urge please Contribute. Keith and Jackie have spent countless hours and many thousands of dollars keeping SMC alive these many years. To Keith it's as more about showing you care enough to contribute $6 as it is the $6, itself.

I contribute to this forum because I value the information that I can find here and nowhere else and I dont want to see this resource go away.

[Cliff Holmes]

I guess it really comes down to whether or not you believe 1) that SMC can exist in it's present state without subscriber donations, and 2) that there are other woodworking forums out there that offer the same value as SMC without charging membership fees

Neither of which was my real point. My point is that what SMC offers for your $6 is virtually worthless to most people.

Your $6 isn't necessary for reading the forums or posing questions. Those two things are all that most people are here for. They don't care about posting in classifieds, chatting in the private lumberyard, or having a blog. They don't pay because they don't get anything they value in return.

Making the deals area a contributor-only zone is probably a step in the right direction. What needs to happen is for SMC to start getting some exclusive offers in there, now you're talking about something that might generate some interest.

[scott vroom]

Neither of which was my real point. My point is that what SMC offers for your $6 is virtually worthless to most people.

Your $6 isn't necessary for reading the forums or posing questions. Those two things are all that most people are here for. They don't care about posting in classifieds, chatting in the private lumberyard, or having a blog. They don't pay because they don't get anything they value in return.

Making the deals area a contributor-only zone is probably a step in the right direction. What needs to happen is for SMC to start getting some exclusive offers in there, now you're talking about something that might generate some interest.

Cliff, for me it's real simple: I don't believe SawMillCreek could exist in it's current state without some financial assistance from it's members. I believe this because the adminisrator told me so. And I believe him. I have little interest in "contributor only" features so I don't view the 6 bucks/year in the same way you view it. I'm not looking for anything other than a popular, broadly subscribed woodworker's forum where I can get my rookie questions answered, and learn from others. SMC offers me that experience in spades and for only 6 bucks a year. I've spend hundreds on DIY woodworking books, and none of them holds a candle to the amount of learning I've gained on SMC. There is not a woodworker forum out there to my knowledge that even comes close to the SMC experience.

[Cliff Holmes]

How you and I view it is irrelevant. We're both contributors. The important part is how the non-contributor members view it. I just think that many of these discussions get wrapped up in how valuable SMC is and people would be begging to give $6 is only they understood. I just think they understand all too well. Nobody (afaik) is arguing that SMC is worthless. But unless we give them something they want in exchange for their $6, nothing is going to change.

[Keith Westfall]

But unless we give them something they want in exchange for their $6, nothing is going to change.

If there were no "free" access to the forum, would it then be worth $6? If so, then support it by paying the $6!

There is no way to put a value on what can be learned here, so let it be a case of 'just supporting' towards the expense of making it available.

I don't understand (and don't buy it!) the "value" in a $6 cup of coffee but some people do and pay for it on a regular basis, because they want it.

Perhaps this should also be a $6 minimum entrance fee...

Would it have value then, if you couldn't get it for free?

[Mike Cruz]

I suppose you would have to offer a 30 day free trial. Otherwise, newbies wouldn't know the value of this forum. I wouldn't have contributed before realizing the wealth of knowledge within. I LIKE the D&D and Classified sections, but I don't believe that is where their "value" is, the value is in the info everywhere eise...

[Cliff Holmes]

If there were no "free" access to the forum, would it then be worth $6? If so, then support it by paying the $6!

I did pay my $6. Again, my POV is not relevant. I'm trying to get you to understand why other people don't pay. For most people, if you want them to give you money, you have to give them something in return. To mangle a metaphor, why buy the cow when the milk's free?

[Jesse Wilson]

I did pay my $6. Again, my POV is not relevant. I'm trying to get you to understand why other people don't pay. For most people, if you want them to give you money, you have to give them something in return. To mangle a metaphor, why buy the cow when the milk's free?


What you don't seem to understand is we all understand what you are saying, it's not a complicated theme to follow. They are given something in return in advance and in good faith that they will follow the rules and contribute. Whether that be by monetary means, informative means, or just simply respecting the forum and utilizing what it provides to advance their knowledge of the hobby.

I think everyone can grasp the fact that many people wont pay until they are obligated to. It is many others perspectives that it is always nice to pay for something you find value in without being forced to.

All contributors were non contributors at one point in time and I guarantee you that not everyone donated so they could win something or see the deals section.

[Alan Bienlein]

I guess it really comes down to whether or not you believe 1) that SMC can exist in it's present state without subscriber donations, and 2) that there are other woodworking forums out there that offer the same value as SMC without charging membership fees. I believe the answer to both questions is "no". If you don't agree then please point me to the other forums.

Well I have 5 other forums in my favorites that I belong to and they are free and you can find what your looking for in any one of them.

And no i'm not going to post them and violate the "tos".

[scott vroom]

I did pay my $6. Again, my POV is not relevant. I'm trying to get you to understand why other people don't pay. For most people, if you want them to give you money, you have to give them something in return. To mangle a metaphor, why buy the cow when the milk's free?

Couldn't disagree more. I ponied up the six dollar bill because I get something in return: an awesome woodworker's forum that provides a wealth of knowledge and information. I'm not here looking for tool discounts or free potholders. Your comments imply that I am not getting something in return and I don't get your logic. What is it that you think SMC should/could offer in order to increase subscriber membership?

The real reason some members don't contribute is that they don't have to. That seems to be the point you're missing. The administrator is running this forum the way he wants it run. There's no pressure to contribute; He could go the mandetory membership route and probably increase revenue, but he doesn't want to. Maybe he should. If you think about it, a mandetory membership fee wouldn't chase away any current contributors, and no doubt would "inspire" a number of lookie-loos to dig deep.

[Cliff Holmes]

I ponied up the six dollar bill because I get something in return: an awesome woodworker's forum that provides a wealth of knowledge and information

No, you didn't. You already had that. But, despite what Jesse says, you people don't seem to get that.

[Cliff Holmes]

It is many others perspectives that it is always nice to pay for something you find value in without being forced to.


Yes, but the problem is that SMC has based a business on that. And it's a business model that's failing. SMC is doomed unless they find some other way to monetize this site.

[scott vroom]

Well I have 5 other forums in my favorites that I belong to and they are free and you can find what your looking for in any one of them.

And no i'm not going to post them and violate the "tos".

TOS prohibits posting LINKS to other forums. You are not prevented from stating the names of the forums.

Moderator, correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[Barry Lyndon]

David, I can't believe you're even asking that question. Come on, man, we're talking about $6.00 per year to find out! That's less than 2 cents/day, brotha! Tell you what: if you can't afford the $6 then I'll pay it for you. Let me know.

No need to berate anyone who chooses to not contribute especially if they have legitimate concerns. David has just as much right to choose not to contribute money as the people running Sawmillcreek.org have the right to choose to charge money for any or all of the forum sections. I can actually understand David's concern in that restricting members from seeing/adding to the Deals and Discounts section will limit the number of deals posted to the forum. It makes sense. I, personally, *have* been disappointed in the decreased number of posts in the deals and discounts forum. I used to wake up every morning excited to check the forum for some good deal and now I hardly check that section at all. I guess there may be an argument made that the "quality" of the deals posted have gone up but I haven't really found that to be the case and really, shouldn't that be for each individual to decide? I don't really need someone to tell me that "deal A" isn't as great of a deal as "deal B". Maybe I'm not interested in "deal B" at all but have been thinking about "deal A" for a while now and just need that small discount to talk myself into buying the product.

Anyway, I personally don't have a problem contributing for the content on this site as I have gotten very valuable information from the great people here. But, that's *MY* decision, not anyone elses. Just thought I'd bring a little of the other side into this "argument". Your little "if you can't afford the $6 then I'll pay it for you." comment was just mean and uncalled for since he clearly states in his post that there is no financial reason that he can't contribute.

[Keith Westfall]

Cliff Holmes - No, you didn't. You already had that. But, despite what Jesse says, you people don't seem to get that.So what do YOU want or need to justify the $6 cost then? If the information that is shared here isn't it, what do you think it should be?

It seems that because it is offered for free, it is not worth $6. So I am really curious as to what would be worth this vast amount of money investment in the 'Creek', in your opinion...

[scott vroom]

No need to berate anyone who chooses to not contribute especially if they have legitimate concerns. David has just as much right to choose not to contribute money as the people running Sawmillcreek.org have the right to choose to charge money for any or all of the forum sections. I can actually understand David's concern in that restricting members from seeing/adding to the Deals and Discounts section will limit the number of deals posted to the forum. It makes sense. I, personally, *have* been disappointed in the decreased number of posts in the deals and discounts forum. I used to wake up every morning excited to check the forum for some good deal and now I hardly check that section at all. I guess there may be an argument made that the "quality" of the deals posted have gone up but I haven't really found that to be the case and really, shouldn't that be for each individual to decide? I don't really need someone to tell me that "deal A" isn't as great of a deal as "deal B". Maybe I'm not interested in "deal B" at all but have been thinking about "deal A" for a while now and just need that small discount to talk myself into buying the product.

Anyway, I personally don't have a problem contributing for the content on this site as I have gotten very valuable information from the great people here. But, that's *MY* decision, not anyone elses. Just thought I'd bring a little of the other side into this "argument". Your little "if you can't afford the $6 then I'll pay it for you." comment was just mean and uncalled for since he clearly states in his post that there is no financial reason that he can't contribute.

My offer to pay was sincere. He seemed uncertain whether it is worth a 6 dollar investment to explore the deals section. I offered to remove the cost factor from his decision. I view it as a way to help SMC and at the same time help out a guy hung up on a 6 dollar decision. In hindsight my offer to pay sounded a bit flip, I guess I was having a giddy moment.

David, my apologies if I offended you. My offer to contribute $6 on your behalf stands.

[Jesse Wilson]

No, you didn't. You already had that. But, despite what Jesse says, you people don't seem to get that.

Yes, but the problem is that SMC has based a business on that. And it's a business model that's failing. SMC is doomed unless they find some other way to monetize this site.


Why do people give in church when the sermon and all the services are free? Why do people give to anything they aren't forced to... because they value the service and whether required to or not they take it upon themselves to give back to something that has given to them.

Nobody is here asking why every single member hasn't contributed yet. They are simply stating that in their opinion the services provided are worth the $6. It is still in the end john-Q-public's choice to pay or not. They may never decide to pay and that is fine because there is for now (and probably always will be) enough people willing to contribute to keep the forum going.


I really don't think the owners of the forum would call this their "business model" and I would hardly say that they are "failing". The have more then enough to cover the costs, upgrade their infrastructure and also provide high dollar giveaways.


They seem to be doing just fine even though people aren't being forced to "pay-to-play"....

[Dave Avery]

Why do people give in church when the sermon and all the services are free? Why do people give to anything they aren't forced to... because they value the service and whether required to or not they take it upon themselves to give back to something that has given to them.

Nobody is here asking why every single member hasn't contributed yet. They are simply stating that in their opinion the services provided are worth the $6. It is still in the end john-Q-public's choice to pay or not. They may never decide to pay and that is fine because there is for now (and probably always will be) enough people willing to contribute to keep the forum going.


I really don't think the owners of the forum would call this their "business model" and I would hardly say that they are "failing". The have more then enough to cover the costs, upgrade their infrastructure and also provide high dollar giveaways.


They seem to be doing just fine even though people aren't being forced to "pay-to-play"....


Very well said......

[Cliff Holmes]

Why do people give in church when the sermon and all the services are free?

The tithe is to honor God, not pay for services rendered.


Nobody is here asking why every single member hasn't contributed yet

No, not every single. And I never said they did. But there's a consistent theme that people should contribute. Maybe they should, but they won't and depending on them to do so for no tangible reward is not viable.


really don't think the owners of the forum would call this their "business model" and I would hardly say that they are "failing"

"In order for us to keep all of our woodworking forums open to everyone for free we need Advertisers and Contributors at this point." Sounds like it ain't working to me.

[Cliff Holmes]

It seems that because it is offered for free, it is not worth $6

No, once again you completely and totally misrepresent what I've said. Let me repeat: SMC provides forum access for free. For $6 a year, they offer additional services. It's those additional services that apparently many people don't feel are worth $6 a year.

[Chris Kennedy]

Against my better judgement, I'll step into this maelstrom again ... :)

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. It's a mistake to say that what SMC offers is worth paying the $6 a year. The fact is that you get X for nothing, for $6 you get X plus very little else. The incremental increase in features for the incremental cost is so small that most people will simply not see any value in it. They get everything they really want for free.

Also, keep in mind that 99.9% of the reason people come to SMC is not provided by SMC. The knowledge and help that make this place appealing are provided by the people visiting, not the people running it. Think about it, if SMC shuts down tomorrow morning, the exact same people will be doing the exact same stuff somewhere else by tomorrow afternoon. The fundamental problem is that SMC is not unique. The content isn't original, the people are not exclusive, the forum software is a commercial product. Its only differentiating factor vs other forums is its size and I don't see anything special here to account for that.


Against my better judgment, I will weigh in as well . . . .

My take on the contributor fee is that is what I pay to make certain that this forum exists tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after that. To me, SMC is much like PBS or NPR. I don't have to pay for it, but I would miss if it were gone. Its existence is what holds value for me, not the specific information that I get. If I have a question, I can post it and get a bunch of answers -- some very useful, some adequately useful, some not so useful, and some . . . well, you get the idea. But the point is that I get the answers and I know that they will be there. Every time, and every question. SMC doesn't provide the information, but it provides the forum to disseminate the information.




One of the fundamental rules of marketing is "don't blame the customer". If they don't want your product, calling them stupid isn't helping.

I would mention two things to this. The first is that the SMC leadership doesn't come out and harp on non-contributors. The mods and administrators will post messages, when the point comes up in public discussion, that if you feel you are deriving benefit then you should consider becoming a contributor.

That being said, there are definitely contributors who get hot under the collar when non-contributors complain about restrictions being placed on them. But let's keep this in perspective -- this isn't blaming the customer. That is exactly your point -- none of us are customers. We aren't paying for this information. The voluntary aspect of it makes it completely different.

I would bet that I came to this forum like many other people -- I had woodworking questions, and my search engine kept bringing me here. Could I what I find here in other forums? Maybe. The other forums I have delved into are like much of the net -- plenty of people trying to be helpful, and then a bunch of idjits spamming, trolling, and messing things up creating chaos for others. I know this forum will be civilized, and I will admit, I sometimes think the mods are a tad pro-active -- but I am willing to take that hit. To me, it is no different than say, a talk show host deciding what guest they will have. We are in their domain, and hence, their decisions rule. They pay the costs (and we voluntarily contribute) so they have the right to make the decisions.

To me, the six dollar annual fee is worth having a forum that doesn't devolve into flame wars, people remain civil, and because of that, it attracts an open and polite community -- be they contributors or not. I am willing to pony up for that. If others are not -- that's their call.

Cheers,

Chris

[Jesse Wilson]

The tithe is to honor God, not pay for services rendered.

So it has nothing to do with keeping their church running huh..... :rolleyes:

What about freeware... many people donate money to the author of the program in respect to the time they spent on the service and the usefulness they drive out of the program.

There are many other examples of people giving of themselves without being required to whether receiving some sort of compensation from it or not.



No, not every single. And I never said they did. But there's a consistent theme that people should contribute. Maybe they should, but they won't and depending on them to do so for no tangible reward is not viable.

Of course people should... and people should all get along and people should obey traffic laws and people should love thy neighbor and people should not eat themselves obese ect.

To say "they wont" is a tad silly, I contributed for no tangible reward as did many other people here so obviously it is very viable. Viable enough that combined with the advertisers keep the forum alive and well.



"In order for us to keep all of our woodworking forums open to everyone for free we need Advertisers and Contributors at this point." Sounds like it ain't working to me.

Every forum not provided for solely by the owner of the forum depends on contributors and advertisers. I guess you missed the post stating that they had the money to upgrade the SMC servers, make a vbulletin upgrade, provide multiple generous giveaways, and provide almost all the SMC services free to those who wish to utilize it without contributing.

[David Prince]

The money is not the issue to me.

My question had more to do with needing the members to go forth and find deals and discounts and bring that back to the hive to share with others. Kinda like a bee hive or an ant colony. Now, restrict who comes and goes from the hive can and will definitely restrict how much comes back, correct?

SMC is entertainment to me. Just like reading a book, watching a movie, browsing the internet. Yes, there is useful information. I have asked questions and I have given advice. Entertainment! If I don't get my entertainment here, I could find it elsewhere. I don't mean that in a rude way by any means!

I am content to browse SMC and check things out. There may come a day that I will contribute my $6 or more, but today isn't the day. I can probably speak for other members that just want to continue to test out the waters and see what they think. Those members will too someday probably choose to pay their $6.

SMC is full of people that are at different phases of their membership at any given time. Some see the value right away and say "Hey, I gotta pay now because this is great" Others may say "I like the place and I think I might be a contributor someday, but it isn't today" and there might even be a few that say "I will never pay". To me there is nothing wrong with any of these folks, but SMC NEEDS all of those people to keep afloat. A private club will get stale after awhile. SMC needs those transitioning from member to contributor on a regular basis.

I do like the place and I might become a contributor some day, but getting back to my original thought, IMHO I think and am sorry to see that the deals and discounts probably has hit a brick wall that it will not recover from.

[Keith Outten]

Let me clear up a few issues that seem to be muddy at this point.

- Our business model at SawMill Creek is more of a goal not to lose money. Whether we make a profit or not isn't a big concern but I won't subsidize free access to our forums from the money I make in my sign shop.

- We are currently supporting not only Members access but Visitors as well. Lets not forget the percentage of our resources 100,000 Visitors consume. In all fairness Visitors are a big part of the equation that attracts advertisers so they aren't exactly free loading.

- Should we ever get to a point that we cannot support Visitors their access will be removed. This could also happen to Member access should our financial situation deteriorate to the point that we start to suffer a financial loss.

- Contributor access here has never been at risk and it is unlikely that it will ever happen. Should the time come when we are forced to move to a subscription based Forum we can quickly make the changes necessary to remain online. Our labor costs will drop to the point that they are not even a factor and we will end up with an incredibly fast server that is at an idle and we won't require any advertising support.

- What happens here next month or next year is controlled by this Community, not the owners or any particular group. I play the cards you deal providing a service based on the funding available, when funds decrease I have to decrease services, layoff people, etc. As long as I can meet the financial requirements to keep The Creek online I will do so but that requires Community support as much as mine.

- Concerning the FOTC giveaway on July Forth we provided half of the funds for the big prize. The money came from the people who registered for our FOTC Directory, not one dime came from the funds collected to support our Forums.

- FreeStuff drawings don't require any funds from SawMill Creek. The only cost is the time I spend coordinating prizes with vendors and I donate my personal time to support FreeStuff Drawings.

- We are not in any financial trouble right now. We are holding our own but that is due to our Marketing efforts and your support combined. As long as we work together we move forward.

- In September of 2005 I made an announcement here that we were shutting down because our business was closing its doors. In huge numbers the members of this Community asked Jackie and I to find a way to keep SawMill Creek alive. A considerable amount of money was collected in 24 hours which proved to me the people here were serious about our survival so here we are today. After ten years of running an online service Jackie and I were relieved at the thought of not ever having the burden of being responsible for anything that ran 24 hours per day 365 days per year. Because you asked us and you were willing to step up and provide your support we reversed our decision and we signed legal contracts that were required for us to continue. We modified our sign business to incorporate SawMill Creek as a division of our company........I could go on and on. Any time you guys and girls are ready for The Creek to end you just let me know and I will pull the plug in 60 seconds and go back to my workshop and make signs or I would be glad to continue to support our Contributors by converting The Creek to a subscription based forum.

IMO Members should never complain about what they receive for free!

I have a great day job working for the state and my sign company produces income equal to the number of hours I am willing to spend in my shop. At 59 years of age I am debt free, paid my home off when I was 40 years old and both my children are grown. I work here because you asked me to, not because I need the money.
In a nutshell I am willing to keep pedaling here as long as you steer.

Whenever I get on my soapbox I like to close by thanking all of our Contributors for their support through the years we have been online. We have not accomplished one thing that would have been possible without you and I value your support and your friendship. When you can take the time from your schedule to make a donation here it justifies the time we spend behind the scenes which is worth more to us than the donation you make.
:)

[Ron Crosby]

Oh, I get it now.
It's all about money. How American. lol

[Keith Westfall]

My question had more to do with needing the members to go forth and find deals and discounts and bring that back to the hive to share with others. Kinda like a bee hive or an ant colony. Now, restrict who comes and goes from the hive can and will definitely restrict how much comes back, correct?

So what we should have is a FREE forum, that will scour the internet and find you the best deals so one can then pick and choose the best way to save money and get the best deal...???

Probably a big line of people just waiting to start that kind of a project!




Whenever I get on my soapbox I like to close by thanking all of our Contributors for their support...

Keith,

When I found this site, I poked around for a while because of the wealth of information. Then when I found out that for $6/year I could do my part to support it, I set up a $2/month pay pal figuring it was well worth that.

Then when I found that I could have a very good chance (1 of 50 something!) of winning the CNC machine for a measly $50 it was a no brainer! And though I didn't win (am still a bit disappointed about that) my $50 FOTC will stand as long as you continue to provide the excellent forum and a way to share so much good information.

Good on you, and those of us who do appreciate it and know there is value at the "Creek", say thanks. Easily worth the price of admission that I choose to contribute.

Keith W.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Oh, I get it now.
It's all about money. How American. lol

Too many people have misinformed idea that the Internet is free. There is nothing in life that is free. Somebody has to pay the bills.

Keith and his wife already had one business go bankrupt because that business was the sole financial support of Saw Mill Creek. When he and Jackie were ready to sell the Creek or let it fold, one of the other Moderators started a fund raising thread. The idea of it being financed by appreciative "members" was born and the label "Contributors" was given to those who contribute to the financial support of the Creek.

We don't verbally abuse people or think any less if they don't, won't or can't afford to contribute the $6 per year that is recommended. In some cases where the unpaid staff of Administrators and Moderators have become aware of financial difficulties of Members, we have offered to pay and often Keith has generously given them the status of Contributor so they could have the full benefits of a Contributor.

The point is, however, as Keith is not willing to face a huge financial loss again to support the Creek. He and his wife have paid and played that game once and won't do it again.

It's easy to be a critic on the Internet or to have what I refer to as Keyboard Bravery. There are a lot of people who proclaim their expertise, criticize and or attack organizations or in this case, the owners/administrators and the methods of operation of the Creek. A lot of folks have theories that are unproven or differ but they voice them, criticize and rain on other peoples parades.If those who have those ideas are so assured of their validity and potential, I invite them to start their own Website and come back in 10 years and let us know how it is surviving.

The Creek is what it is because of Keith's and Jackie's commitment to it both financially and through their unpaid labors over the years. Contrary to a certain group who claim that this website is supported by one of their competitors, the Moderators here are all invited, unpaid volunteers . Speaking for myself, I found the Creek when I started my shop. I have learned an immeasurable amount and made numerous friends. We donate our time to keep the Creek what it was and is..... a place where beginners to pros can come to exchange information about a common subject of woodworking and related topics, share a little of our lives, make a few friends, have a good time and do it in a civil manner.

After losing one business as a result of being the sole financial support the Creek and all of the hours they have worked in the past years, if Jackie and Keith make money at it......so what? It is privately owned....it bankrupted one of their businesses. I wouldn't fault them for making a profit. I am in awe of their generosity. The servers for the Creek reside in Keith's shop. This is very similar to being a dairy farmer. You don't take vacations because the responsibilities are there 24x7 x 365 days a year.

So yeah....it is about money......

[Ron Crosby]

A wealth of information here for only $6/year. If anything, I sometimes feel guilty for the low price of admission!

Ok, that's how you feel, maybe you think this is the only place on the web for woodworking stuff?

Thing is, there's loads of other sites with contributing message boards that are also a wealth of info and don't cost a penny to the poster. The internet is huge! :eek:

[Keith Outten]

In plain language.........

SawMill Creek is a Woodworkers Community.

SawMill Creek is not a business but it has to exist somewhere and only a corporation can handle the legal risks.

It isn't about me or how I manage, my role here is basically a trusted custodian. I delete a lot of new registrations here every day. This is contrary to what a businessman would do that wants customers and whose only interest is making money. I just sent a check to CAMaster for three thousand dollars to pay our portion of the CNC Router that we gave away. I could have put that money in my pocket but I didn't. I worked long hours supporting the 4th of July event, for this Community. I didn't receive any compensation other than the satisfaction of seeing other woodworkers win nice prizes. To date we have put together 177 FreeStuff Drawings, very few can even imagine how much work it takes or the hours involved to coordinate these drawings. My record here over the last seven years serving this Community stands for itself, there are thousands who will tell you that I couldn't possibly be here for the money.

Almost every decision that we make here is discussed in our Moderators Forum. Our Moderators are all respected Members of this Community and have been for a very long time. Their role here is just as much representatives of the Community as it is Moderating threads and posts. New Moderators are nominated and approved by our Moderators.

The sole reason we have become the largest woodworking forum in the world is because the majority here understand the basic idea that "WE" are a Community of woodworkers supporting each other. As we grow or decrease in size "WE" will make adjustments necessary to keep The Creek alive and well.

If you are a lone wolf this is probably not the place for you, there are other forums that you can frequent that would definitely be a better fit and we would be happy to see you leave.

I have admitted many times publicly that I am not qualified to be your host, the job just landed in my lap and I was willing to serve the best I can. I have made mistakes and I have corrected my mistakes many times. I don't know anyone who is qualified to do a job that requires one person to support thousands of individuals all over the world on a personal level.

If in the future the majority of this Community tell me that the Deals and Discounts Forum needs to be returned to its previous status I will make the change on the spot but it is going to take a lot more than a couple of New Members. You do your time here, show your support for this Community, and then your voice will carry some weight.

This is a subject that bores me to tears because I already know that there are a large number of people whose minds are made up and they don't want to be confused by the facts.

Note that not once during this post did I ask anyone for money! Whether you make a donation or not is between you and the other members of this Community.
.

[Dan Duperron]

Well, I won't wade into the philosophical debate, but for any non-contributor still on the fence I thought I'd provide a data point about the current status of the D&D forum.

Earlier this week I saved $165 (50% of the item's cost) on a brand-new item purchased from the manufacturer - thanks solely to the tip on D&D. No, I won't tell you what it is, you'll have to pay your $6 to find out ;)

I'm a happy contributor anyway, but even if I was acting in some 100% rational cost-benefit analysis kind of fashion it looks to me like I got a lot more than my $6 back this year.

Keith, others have said it better than I, but many thanks for your dedication. SMC is the first place I 'visit' over my 1st cup in the morning, and usually gets a peek before I turn in too. Keep up the great work.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......there's loads of other sites with contributing message boards that are also a wealth of info and don't cost a penny to the poster. The internet is huge!

The gen-pop internet also seems - to me - to attract more than it's proportional share of wackos - I love Ken's label of "Keyboard Bravery". I have run out of patience for spending time rummaging around "discussions" among the tin-foil-hat crowd. Not all sites are like that, of course.

This site is well run, the TOS are certainly reasonable, and the input by Friends, Contributors, and Members is helpful on topics of interest to me (never had a lathe, never will, never wanted to build a boat, never will, so I don't read those). Plus - as Keith noted - SMC has a very large community population with a lot to contribute (small "c", not capital "C"), and there's a small group of guys that always pique my interest - both for what they say, and from pondering what/who they are in "real life".

Sooooooooo.....I'm happy to do my very small bit to have a quality, large, wacko-free zone to visit.

Not sure how Mitchell got his goats past the sentries, though :D.

[Jesse Wilson]

A wealth of information here for only $6/year. If anything, I sometimes feel guilty for the low price of admission!

Ok, that's how you feel, maybe you think this is the only place on the web for woodworking stuff?

Thing is, there's loads of other sites with contributing message boards that are also a wealth of info and don't cost a penny to the poster. The internet is huge! :eek:


And I have pretty much seen them all. This is by far the most friendly, easy to use, in depth, and useful ww site on the net imho.

So yes, I too am a proud supporter of this site that has provided so much help to me in the short time I have been a member.

[Dave Avery]

A wealth of information here for only $6/year. If anything, I sometimes feel guilty for the low price of admission!

Ok, that's how you feel, maybe you think this is the only place on the web for woodworking stuff?

Thing is, there's loads of other sites with contributing message boards that are also a wealth of info and don't cost a penny to the poster. The internet is huge! :eek:

Might I politely suggest that you vote with your keyboard and visit the sights that you reference?

[Jim Becker]

A wealth of information here for only $6/year. If anything, I sometimes feel guilty for the low price of admission!

Ok, that's how you feel, maybe you think this is the only place on the web for woodworking stuff?

Thing is, there's loads of other sites with contributing message boards that are also a wealth of info and don't cost a penny to the poster. The internet is huge!

Ron, you're absolutely correct...there are many places you can go on the Internet to spend time reading and discussing woodworking and many of them are "free". SMC is "free" if you want it to be, although there are portions of the site that are reserved for those who do contribute financially. But "free" is in quotes because in all cases, someone is paying for whatever your're browsing.

The SMC community isn't for everyone, but it's obviously got something going right with over 10,000 ACTIVE participants (and 57,000+ registered members) and an environment that is often substantially more friendly than many places. If you have kids who are interested in woodworking, you can be assured that we work really hard to make it family-friendly, too.

But if you don't feel that it gives you the value you personally need, as you state, you have plenty of alternative or parallel choices. If you don't feel that the additional benefits that are afforded to contributors is of interest to you, it's really not a problem if you choose to stay on the "free" side of the 'Creek. Or just move on.

That all said, I'll just reiterate again, that despite the appearance of being "free", anything and everything you have access to on the Internet is being paid for by someone by some means...

[David Hanames]

Sent my $6. The info on this site is well worth it.

Thanks

[Matt Brawley]

Mine is on my way too Keith.

[Brent Smith]

"SMC is entertainment to me. Just like reading a book, watching a movie, browsing the internet. Yes, there is useful information. I have asked questions and I have given advice. Entertainment! If I don't get my entertainment here, I could find it elsewhere. I don't mean that in a rude way by any means!"

Snatched the above from an earlier post. Just one request here......someone please tell me where I can also get free books, free movies and free internet so I can get my free entertainment elsewhere also!

C'mon people, it's $6...................

[Jon Bonham]

I sent my $6 the day they blocked the D&D forum. I've probably save that 10x over in a couple weeks. It's probably the best $6 I've ever spent.

[Art Mulder]

.....someone please tell me where I can also get free books, free movies and free internet so I can get my free entertainment elsewhere also!

C'mon people, it's $6...................

Psst, Brent, it's called the "Public Library"... ;)

[Matt Meiser]

Only the public library isn't exactly free since we all pay taxes to support our public libraries. And we don't even get the choice there--if the majority want the tax, we all pay it.

[Harold Burrell]

Psst, Brent, it's called the "Public Library"... ;)

You do realize that somebody pays for that, right??? ;)

[Van Huskey]

Psst, Brent, it's called the "Public Library"... ;)


Was thinking the same thing, but in the end we pay for that as well. I always think it is funny that more people don't use the public library.

[Brent Smith]

Hey Art.....I guess that one has been answered :).

My point was that very little is free in this world. It seems to me that people that are arguing that the D&D forum is losing out because it's closed to non-contributors should sit back and think about all the other mundane things in their lives that they pay for on a daily basis. Over the coarse of a year how much do some pay for hot water with a bit of flavoring in it :) ? Six dollars just seems inconsequential when you consider how much info, never mind the community, there is available here!

[Rich Engelhardt]

I just flushed away $6.97 worth of yesterday's McGut-bomb & fries....

Feeling guilty that my $6.97 purchase didn't even stick with me for 24 hours, I clicked the donate link above and paid my dues...

:D