Large flooring project - please review profitability for me

[dirk martin]

I've got someone asking me if I'd be willing to make some flooring for him. He's in no rush. Here's the calculations.

He wants QSawn White Oak.
I can get that for $2/BF.
He needs 4,000 BF of the flooring.
He's willing to pay about $4.70/BF.
He's fine with random lengths, but would like 6" widths, not end matched.
The WO I'd be getting, averages 7" widths.

My thought is I'd buy the 25" model Woodmaster, with a single router on the output side, for edging. I'd plan on running the boards through a total of 3 times. First pass to gang rip to width. Second pass to profile the underside (stress relief) and the tongue, 3rd pass to profile the top side and the groove.

I'm estimating it'll take 45 seconds to runn one board through the Woodmaster. That's how long it takes to run an 8' white oak board through my Dewalt 12" lunchbox planer, so I can't imagine the Woodmaster would be slower. I'm also estimating I'm looking at about 1,000 boards for this job. That works out to 12.5 hours to run the boards through one time, or 37.5 hours to run them through 3 times. I'm figuring that I can only run one board through at a time (worse case...tho I would think that machine would handle multiple boards at once). I hire workers all the time to help me with general labor for $8/hr....so say I pay $10/hr, I'm still only looking at $375 in labor cost.

By my calculations, I'm coming up with close to $10K in profit on the wood....which should easily cover me hiring some labor, and should pay off the machine with this one job. Sure I've got electricity, and knives and such...but it just seems I've got a HUGE amount of margin to work with here....what am I missing?

[Tom Rick]

How much waste will you have?
How many finished boards discarded due to blown out tongues, run out in width, etc?
Have you fully translated how the rough stock BF will translate to finished flooring BF?
Finished flooring has to be milled to fairly close tolerances- is the machine you are considering up up to the task?
Is the rough stock you can buy appropriately seasoned/can you store and mill the stock in a climate controlled shop?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Make it clear to the customer that you're talking board foot and not square foot.
Since flooring comes priced by the square foot, I'd bet the customer has square foot in their head.

My wife spends an enormous amount of time working alongside me, both in the shop and onsite when we rehab a house.
She wouldn't know a board foot from her left foot.
Most "consumers" are going to be like that. You get a short distance outside the WW'ing community and a huge "term barrier" crops up real quick.
I see this all the time in my day job in IT.
99% of my customers, many of which have spent a decade or longer working with computers, wouldn't know SCSI from SATA.
They sure know the difference between $900.00 and $90.00 though!

It would go a long way to also visit the site where the flooring is going to be installed and snap some measurements - just to be sure.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Hey Dirk. I have a DeWalt planer DW735, and my buddy has the woodmaster. It's a great machine. The feed rate is pretty fast. A lot faster then my planer. I'd defently take the job if it were me. I wouldn't be scared even a little bit.

[J.R. Rutter]

You should be able to make some money and get some equipment out of this. I was starting to run through my bid process to see what I came up with, but I'm not familiar enough with the Woodmaster + router setup to know particulars. I'll just throw out some general thoughts to consider.

Most important: How confident are you that this customer will pay you $18,800 at the other side of this deal?

Is this lumber rough, hit and missed, or surfaced? If it were me (and I have a 5-head moulder) I would be bringing in hit and missed S2S, or plan for a roughing top & bottom pass through the moulder to help flatten things out and make edge defects easier to spot for the ripping to width. Hopefully you can get 4 units of flat, wide QSWO for $2/bf where you are, but I sure can't where I am, so please send me a PM with your source because it would probably pay for me to truck a unit out here!

I would add 30% waste if you need to provide 6" uniform width with clean ends. It is amazing how quickly ripping to width and removing end checks adds up. Or are you leaving the ends rough? Can you return or sell stock that isn't wide enough?

Everything takes longer than you think it will, especially with so much handling. But even if time were doubled, you should still be in good shape.

Buy extra bits and maybe an extra router. The faster you run the profiles, the harder it will be on the router, and the more likely the edge is to tear out.

The good news is your low labor cost and raw material cost - you should still gross about $8k before buying any equipment. The full Woodmaster setup that you are talking about is what, about $4k?

So if i were you, I would hope/expect to clear $4k from this and be pleasantly surprised if it is more.

[Rod Sheridan]

My only comments are that it's a stack of work to make flooring without a sticker, and that if you need 6" wide flooring, 7" average width on the rough stock isn't going to make it.

You need a minimum of 7" rough stock to make 6" flooring, assuming it's really nice straight material.

For an average width you need 8" if the stock is +/- 1"

Regards, Rod.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I just finished installing about 800 sq ft of flooring for my house using a Woodmaster 718 and grizzly 1.5 HP 3/4" spindle shaper. Taking the stock from rough to s2s took four passes, a pass or so through the jointer (woodmaster is a gang rip, NOT a straightliner, so account for that), then a pass through the gang rip to get 3.25" blanks. 2 trips through the shaper and then one more throught the woodmaster to drum sand. Didn't end match and trimmed the ends square at installation. That's a total of 9 trips through the machinery. Not quite the most efficient but the results were great and I had surprisingly little waste. It took me about 3 days total to run out about 1000 sq ft of finished product. If you are considering equipment I can't speak to the performance of the woodmaster 3 sided system but a power feeder on the shaper worked amazingly well. For what Woodmaster charges for the extension and router you could get the grizzly shaper and powerfeeder and have a more versitile tool. I think you could definitely make money on the deal, but I would get a down payment and signed contract from the buyer and check with your lumber supplier to make sure you have sufficient widths. As for the surfacing, I have a sawmill and used my own lumber for this project, but my commercial supply guy will sell S2S straight edged material for less than my labor, if that would have been the case, I could have cut out 5 steps in my process. Look into it and best of luck.

Ryan

[Jerome Stanek]

You may want to look at some mills that do flooring all the time it may be cheaper to buy the flooring than tring to mill it yourself.

[Mort Stevens]

it may be cheaper to buy the flooring than tring to mill it yourself.

Ding, ding, ding! This is probably the best answer - every time I have looking into making my own flooring I have always been able to purchase pre-made flooring cheaper than I can purchase the wood itself!

[J.R. Rutter]

^^^^

But guys, he is making a specialty product (medium-wide plank QSWO) to sell at a profit, not buying flooring for his own house!

[Jerome Stanek]

Have you ever heard of markup. If he gets it at the right price he could make more than if he milled it himself.

[dirk martin]

Mort and Jerome....

Are you guys being serious?
As I stated in my original post, I'm buying QSWO for $2/BF, and I've got all the labor force I need at $8/hr, and you're really suggesting I shop around to find 6" wide flooring cheaper than I can make it?

[dirk martin]

Ryan, I've never used a spindle shaper before, so I find your post very interesting. I see the Grizzley G1035P, is $572. Not bad at all.

Did you put any kind of top profile on your flooring boards? I'm wondering if the top was just milled flat, or if you did anything to the edges?

The big advantage to the dual router setup, of the Woodmaster, is that one pass through the machine routs both the tongue and groove, as well as the back relief.

However, having a stand alone shaper, would be very nice....and I already have a stock feeder I could use. However, again, making all those multiple passes, on 1,000 boards is pretty time consuming. But then again, with my $8/hr labor force, that's not that big a deal I guess....

[Scott T Smith]

In order to yield 4000 square feet of 3/4" flooring, you're going to need to start with around 7000 bd ft of 8"+ QSO. The first thing that you need to do is to ensure that whomever is quoting you $2.00 bd ft for KD QSWO can actually deliver that much product. That bd ft price is about one-half of average wholesale price for 8" wide QSWO...

Flooring profiles on shaper cutters are typically not the same from top to bottom. There is a slight relief in the fit between the boards below the groove, to allow for glue, dust, etc w/o forcing the two boards apart. Be sure that you use the appropriate router bit; I'm aware that they are available for shapers but not routers.

You may need to factor in some replacement tooling or sharpening into your budget.

As Ryan indicated, you will need to come up with a method to straght line rip (or joint) one edge before gang ripping. 8" is probably the minimum width that you'll need; you'll lose some material in the edge straightening process and you also need to account for the tongue (about 1/4"). Does your customer expect a 6" face width of the board, or 5-3/4" (plus 1/4" for the tongue).

+1 on JR's recommendation for "hit and miss" or skip-planed material. I mill all of my quartersawn at 5/4 just to be sure that the entire board length will clean up at 3/4. Often times 4/4 RS will not full clean up at 3/4" from end to end and side to side over an 8' board. Since random lengths are acceptable you'll need to factor in time and equipment for precision end cutting.

[Peter Quinn]

I think all the salient points have been made. I'd want to reiterate, 6" QSWO from 7" material? I've worked in a flooring mill that specializes in QSWO in widths over 5" and wide plank (in fact I work there now in a different capacity), and the number of boards from a 7" pack that don't make 6" lumber is surprising. You have sap, you have that nasty flat sawn on one edge that sawyers leave in and graders allow but customers HATE in their QS floors. WO checks pretty hard, knots show up in the worst places, like 32" from each end on an order with 36" minimums. In a flooring mill it all gets used some where, for parquet, or another job, or a vari width floor (4-9" for instance). But you must make use of it all for this one job, it won't all work, and your waste could approach 40% if things go badly, so plan accordingly.


The only other part of the plan that jumps out at me with red flags is the router in the extension table part. That makes me want to scream "Holy crap don't do that man!" I suspect you will lose a lot of wood that way. The second your bits get the slightest bit dull that small diameter of the router is going to start eating any oak whose grain isn't ideal. I like the shaper idea a lot better, at least a 3/4" bore cutter set. Its not a huge taxing cut but you want the biggest diameter you can get for good results.

And $4.70 per SF is a pretty good bargain. If I were the client I'd want to pay that too. Most charge a bit more, and for good reasons. Price your wood at least 7"-8" widths for 6, leaning towards 8" and run the costs that way.


My boss started just like you are describing.some very basic equipment, some cheap labor and a client with specific needs for some custom flooring. One job makes a little money, the next you get better at it, 30 years later you're running a decent sized flooring operation. Me, I'd rather jump out of an plane naked and on fire without a parachute than make flooring, but its a good business. Speaking of good business, take a deposit that covers your lumber costs and some labor. If they can't do that, you have no client and no deal.

[Tony Joyce]

I agree with most of what Scott Smith said. Also be aware the customer will be looking for a pretty close tolerance on the width, because of end butting.

I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts after you complete this project, please keep us updated.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=127641&d=1252624454

[Tony Bilello]

If you have to come on thios forum to ask this question, you are heading for a bunch of trouble.

here is part of your original post:

"He wants QSawn White Oak.
I can get that for $2/BF.
He needs 4,000 BF of the flooring.
He's willing to pay about $4.70/BF.
He's fine with random lengths, but would like 6" widths, not end matched.
The WO I'd be getting, averages 7" widths."

I dont believe you can get "Quality" QSWO for $2/Bd ft. Better get that in writing.
He needs 4,000 Sq ft and dont really care about the Bd footage.
You will need about 6,000 to 7,000 Bd Ft to give him 4,000
The wood will be 7" average, that means it could be 6 to 8" The 6" rough is too small to make a 6" finished.



And this is only for starters. I haven't really wasted any time seriously thinking about this.

I wish you luck if you decide to go ahead with this.

[dirk martin]

I'm a bit confused on some of what I'm reading.

Why do some of you figure I need 8" wide boards, to get 6" wide flooring? Sure, I'm starting with 8 foot boards, but it's not like each strip of flooring needs to be 8 feet long. My customer is allowing pieces as short as two feet. The WO I'm getting varies from 6 to 8" wide, with an even spread in that range.

But if you're saying you think I'll need 7KBF in order to get 4KBF, that's 75% waste....which seems a bit in excess.

I'm planning on using cutters like this:
http://www.amanatool.com/shaper/flooring-shapercutters.html
if I go with a shaper, or something similar if I go the Woodmaster route.

I straight line rip easily myself now, though it's my understanding the Woodmaster will gang rip without requiring a straight edge.

Good point on taking the time for end cutting into consideration...tho, again, my labor cost is a very small piece of the list of expenses.

Also, this won't be my one and only flooring job. Any board that won't produce any 6" wide flooring stock, I can certainly put back into inventory to use on a narrower order down the road. No need to consider it waste.

Now...using outfeed routers on the Woodmaster for the tongue and groove, or should I go the shaper route? Hmmmm.

Going the Woodmaster route, allows me make 3 cuts at once (tongue, groove, bottom relief). Normally that's a big savings, but since my labor cost is small, I should probably move towards delivering a better quality product...and it sounds ilke most of you agree the shaper will create cleaner tongues and grooves, and possess less chance for tear-out. Wish I could find more people with experience with the 3 sided molding from Woodmaster.

[dirk martin]

Tony, I have a sawyer that sells me White Oak logs that are 3 sides clear, for $850 per thousand BF. For sawing, he charges me 14 cents a board foot for flat sawing, and 16 cents a board foot for quarter sawing. He then dries for me, for 18 cents a board foot. Run those numbers, and you'll see that I can even do much better than $2/bf. Right now, he has no WO logs in stock, and thus I'm using my backup supplier that is at $2/bf...so believe it or not...it's true. And no need to get it in writting...I take delivery of it all the time. You'd better double check the pricing on your sources.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

After reading all of the posts.. some very knowledgeable.. it seems to me that even if the yield is a lot worse, you'll probably at worst break even and end up with the machinery for the next job.. that doesn't seem like too bad a deal.

[J.R. Rutter]

I'm curious about why you would need to straight line an edge before gang ripping.

From looking at the woodmaster compared to an industrial gang rip, I can see that overall straightness may be an issue, since there is nothing but a couple of rollers to hold boards straight as they feed rather than a chain. But a gang rip means using a pair of blades (at least) to set the width and run both edges in a single pass. There will always be tension release that can bow a board after ripping, but straightening an edge before ripping won't relieve that.

If you have the starting width to support doing it (like an extra 1/8" gang ripped), a shaper setup with a jointing fence for the first edge pass, then a long outboard fence to set finished width would probably get you straighter flooring and still maintain your uniform width. If you go for insert tooling, you could even drill and tap some holes in the shaper top for several widths so that you can move the outboard fence and return to standard width settings. The shaper is very versatile and even a cheap one can be useful for a long time even if it spins just one profile.

[Peter Quinn]

If you have the starting width to support doing it (like an extra 1/8" gang ripped), a shaper setup with a jointing fence for the first edge pass, then a long outboard fence to set finished width would probably get you straighter flooring and still maintain your uniform width. If you go for insert tooling, you could even drill and tap some holes in the shaper top for several widths so that you can move the outboard fence and return to standard width settings. The shaper is very versatile and even a cheap one can be useful for a long time even if it spins just one profile.

Funny JR, I was thinking that same thing about this situation when I got up this morning. We rip all material 3/8" over the stated face width, so 6 3/8" straight lined for 6" flooring. That gives 1/16" removal per pass pus the face and a 1/4" tongue. We have one double shaper set up for wide plank flooring that won't fit through the any of the molders. Its a jointing split fence for the groove pass and an out board fence for the tongue pass. You run any rough on the tongue side as coming up a bit light on the tongue isn't bad, on the groove side its a wasted board, There are steel angle irons bolted to each side of the table with precise index holes drilled so the outboard fence can be set to different widths quickly. We use brazed tooling, so there is room for adjustment in the angle irons to compensate for sharpening. I just can't imagine two routers giving you the same functionality or precision.

[Carpenter Mark]

Ryan's reply is the most accurate for time involved for the machines described, I'd use that for figuring my labor.
Don't try to figure time running machines in seconds-that's for automatic machinery that doesn't tire. And remember that $10 per hour labor costs closer to $12.
Everyone who cautioned you as to material quanity is right-Your client is thinking 4000 sq ft installed- board footage in the rough will be substantially more.
Unless you can get your material well line ripped, you'll have to figure at least one more pass per piece to straighten it and then be able to size and profile in two passes. QSWO in that width won't knock together well if it's bowed, a knowledgeable installer won't use it and a client won't want to pay for it. And consider that some stock will have to be flattened too.
Are you getting Clear FAS KD QSWO? Or are knots o.k.? I'm with Peter on making flooring, run an up-cut saw for a couple of days culling defects and you'll know why. If you have to defect 4000 ft of flooring with the most powerfull chop saw made, it can take days.

But, by all means, go for it! Just don't spend your profit before it's in your hand. We're all just trying to help you avoid the potholes and pitfalls in a road we've traveled.

[Art Mulder]

I'm a bit confused on some of what I'm reading.
..
But if you're saying you think I'll need 7KBF in order to get 4KBF, that's 75% waste....which seems a bit in excess.


Check your math, Dirk... 4000 is 57% of 7000. Which works out to 43% waste. ;)
How did you get a figure of 75% ??

I have no comments on the viability of the job, since that is outside my experience. However, I DO want to echo the people who are suggesting that your client is most likely thinking about 4000 square feet, rather than 4000 board feet.

That's how flooring is sold, and that is what I sure thought about when I saw the original post.

I think it is well worth your time to make sure that you and your client are using the same terminology!

best wishes, let us know how it turns out!
...art

[Rob Russell]

Just a couple of comments.

I agree with using a shaper and power feeder instead of the router to mill the flooring edges.
I'd suggest looking into insert tooling where you buy the head and replaceable blades. Running the amount of stock you're looking at, your blades will dull and you'll need to either stop and have them sharpened or just replace the knives. Going the replaceable knife route also means that when you hit a stone that'sgrown into the tree and get a nick in the blade (whcih then leaves a ridge in the board), you can just swap out the damaged knives.
Order extra blades for the Woodmaster.
Make sure you have good dust collection and figure out what you're going to do with all of those oak chips and dust. It's gonna be a good sized pile.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'll second the suggestion about double checking your suppliers pricing. I recently bought a fair amount of rift sawn white oak from one of the largest suppliers in the Northeast and it was $4.39 a bd. ft. for fairly narrow (5-7") pieces, wider obviously would be more expensive. Rift and Quartered are usually pretty close in price, and although price varies by location and quantity that's a really really low price!

As far as making it vs buying it you need to understand the principles of working in quantity. Mills that make flooring can run that stock through dedicated industrial machines and will knock it out in no time. That's why it is usually difficult if not impossible to do it cheaper. Case in point...I have a 16" 5hp jointer, a 20" 9hp planer, a couple tablesaws, and a 7-1/2 hp cyclone dust collector and there's no way I could possible straight line rip and plane stock for anywhere near what my supplier charges. They have the ability to do it so much cheaper.

I'm not trying to influence you one way vs the other....just want to make sure you really look into it before leaping.
good luck,
JeffD

[Ryan Hellmer]

Dirk, I used the amana shaper cutter set (Amana part no SC450) it has a nice relief slot on the bottom and nail slot as well. These cutters ran flawlessly. I was running the 1.5hp shaper at 10,000 rpm cutting full profile at full bore (49 fpm) on the power feed. Keed the table waxed and I could shove pieces through faster than my dad could catch them and put them on the stack. Keep in mind that I am doing this just as a hobby, and understand that in a production setting time is money. I just think if you have a small shop you would probably find (space permitting) a shaper or two to be more beneficial and versatile than the woodmaster router setup, plus shaper cutters do a MUCH better job than router bits any day. If you have a 718, the router extenstion with 2 routers is $1900. You could easily have 2 shapers w/ powerfeed for that, set them up in a row and bing, bang, boom the flooring is done. Next time you could use them for rail and stile cutting or panel raising, even just edge profiling or shaping with a guided cutter for mass production. I LOVE my shapers and use them on almost every project.

On my narrower boards, I didn't cut any back releif or top profile, my floor went in nearly flawlessly and a couple hours with a U-Sand from home depot had it looking amazing. Either way, I love my woodmaster but think they have some limitations.

All the other comments on here are great. Now it's in your court, keep us updated.

Ryan

[dirk martin]

Man, you guys are all so great. Lots of super info here...I really take my hat off to all of you.

Ok, even though it means handling each piece of wood 2 MORE TIMES! I'm leaning towards going the shaper route, rather than the 2 router outboard setup from Woodmaster.

Ryan, which Grizzly shaper did you use?
Will the G4792 two HP model work for $800, or do you think I should bump up to the G1026 at three HP for $1,100? Ahhh, I see now you said you ran the 1.5hp model. Probably the G01035, which is $550.... 49FPM is moving right along. Since the 1.5hp model worked so well for you, what does more HP get me? I imagine the ability to cut deeper profiles, faster?...as in crown moldings?

Jeff, I still argue that I can come in cheaper than using product from the big mills. With my ability to get GOOD QUALITY QSWO at $2/bf and less, and good labor at $8/hr (I've used a lot of these guys for other jobs, and have some good, tireless people now). Plus, I'd rather give the money to these college students, than some unknown laborers lacking green cards.

Rob, sounds like you agree with Ryan too on going with a shaper. I do have good dust collection, and getting rid of my chips and dust is easy for me.

Art, you're right...I'm not sure either how I figured that 75%....but even 43% waste I think is not realistic. Again, boards that aren't wide enuf aren't wasted, nor are boards with odd knot placement, since short flooring pieces aren't uncommon. But, I do agree that cutting out the bad spots could be quite time consuming...but I can have a person cut wood for me all day long, and it only costs me between $64-$80. And, yes, I realize that flooring is sold by the SF, not BF, and I will be loosing on the edges, and ends...but I seriously doubt it'll be 43%.



Ryan, are you suggesting I must have a straight edge, before gang ripping on the Woodmaster? And, did you use the Woodmaster to cut a relief back cut, or your shaper? Plus, in your description, I don't see where you planed your rough stock to thickness. I'm thinking:
Straight Line One Edge
Gang Rip to width
Plane to about 1/8" over final thickness top side on Woodmaster (multiple passes needed for this when starting with 4/4 stock?)
Plane to final thickness bottom, with relief on Woodmaster
Shaper the groove
Shaper the tongue
Trim Ends
I thought step 1 would be handled by the Woodmaster, during step 2, but I may be wrong.

[J.R. Rutter]

I would skip the first step unless I'm missing something. Put a pair of blades on the Woodmaster and have at it.

The one extra step that I might do though would be to skip plane the boards before surfacing and back relief. Even if you just did one side to better see the grain before gang ripping, then use that side down next time it goes through the planer/moulder, you will get better, flatter finished product.

[dirk martin]

Makes sense, J.R.....
I've never used a varialbe feed speed planer, like the Woodmaster. Even with that feature, do you think step #3 will require multiple passes? Or do you think it's possible to simply slow down the infeed speed, and get 'er done in one pass?

[dirk martin]

Wait a sec JR...you're talking about step #4. Step #3 will accomplish what you're suggesting.

[Jeff Duncan]

Just curious...is this lumber kiln dried? Still trying to get my head around that price?
Also since your buying such a large quantity I'd at least check the cost to have it straight line ripped and planed for you. I think my supplier is something like .10 - 15. cents per bd. ft.. May save you a lot of time and put more money in your pocket.
good luck,
JeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

Wait a sec JR...you're talking about step #4. Step #3 will accomplish what you're suggesting.

Yes - sorry. You are on the right track with that! Try for a cut depth that won't be full pressure on the first pass so it will do some flattening. You want some misses. Then flip it over and either do a second pass or start profiling, depending on the wood and the machine.

[dirk martin]

Yes Jeff, it's kiln dry to 6-8%....and I just verified it's FAS.
I've had my sawyer straight line for me, and plane for me in the past, and his planer is so huge that I've seen him hog off over 1/4" in thickness per pass...too much chipout for me.

As for straight lining...I actually enjoy doing that myself, and my setup is much more accurate. But again, with the gang rip blades of the Woodmaster, straight lining shouldn't be neccessary I hope.

I'll be doing all the planing on the woodmaster, using a helical head with carbide inserts....I wonder how long they'll last on this material....

[Neal Clayton]

the woodmaster is capable of accurate gang rips to 16', yes. i use one for molding myself. i can make 16 foot blanks no problem.

the router mount works as advertised, it should be able to stick your edges for you, pretty simple to set up.

you can't really predict the time. some species cut well at faster feed rates, some species cut well at slower feed rates. trial and error is the only way to find out.

the inserts should last just fine on the planer head. it takes a good long while to wear one edge out.

if you want to wind up with 6" wide you're gonna need to start with 1x8s. you won't get 6 out of alot of 7s. all of the above posts are correct about that. and due to random flaws in random boards i agree that you'll need to plan for at least a third more board footage than you're gonna wind up with square footage in the end result, if not double. depends on the quality of what you start with. and even at that sometimes you lose some of it. quarter sawn clear boards are all fine and good, but some of them split right down the middle, some of them will even shatter in two. sometimes you wind up with frayed/chipped edges due to where the blades happen to land. you can't predict that but it'll happen, and more than once.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't think you'll have to worry about the carbide inserts. They don't generally give quite as good a finish as HSS, but they do run long! I had an import 20" planer with an insert head for less than a year, when I sold it I wasn't even thinking about rotating the inserts yet. If you run HSS on the profile cutters than you'll very likely need to sharpen (or replace depending on what your using) as white oak is pretty abrasive on knives.

One last thing, not sure about your shop setup, but if your planning on growing and have access to 3 phase power you may be better off picking up a used industrial planer rather than the Woodmaster. I paid short money for my 20" SCMI and I can't imagine ever going back to anything less. Not to mention you'd likely have money left over for a good shaper and feeder. If you do stay with the Woodmaster get the biggest motor they'll sell you. I had a 5hp on my Bridgewood with the insert head and it was grossly underpowered. You do not want to have that kind of workload with under powered equipment.
good luck,
JeffD

[dirk martin]

I thought about just buying a stand alone planer, Jeff, but not only do I then lose the capability of profiling the face of stock, but then I also need to shop for a seperate gang rip machine.

[dirk martin]

From the video's I've seen of people doing 3 sided molding on their Woodmaster, the stock seems to move at a rather slow rate, as I see it come out from the two routers cutting the edges. Much slower then the 49fpm that Ryan was moving stock through his shaper.

So, even tho using a shaper to create the tongue and groove may be extra handling of the boards, it sounds like it may NOT be all that more time intensive.

[Jeff Duncan]

In the end you have to buy what's going to work for you and your workload. If you think the gang rip feature on a planer is worthwhile then I wouldn't want to talk you out of it. Though I may offer one other suggestion. When I have a lot of ripping to do I pop a feeder onto my tablesaw and let it run. The advantage (to me anyway) is I prefer dedicated tools, ie I want to leave my planer as a planer and if I need a molder I'd pick up a stand alone unit. It suits the type of work I do better. The disadvantage is an extra step as you'll have to get 1 edge straight first.
As for the routers running slow, or more accurately the feed rate through the routers, you have to realize that your really going to be pushing them to their full capacity with the workload you have. If you try to force stock through them too fast you'll burn them out quickly. A decent shaper, say 3hp minimum, will do a t&g profile at 50 ft. per minute pretty easily. A 3hp router....I don't know but I wouldn't want to bet on it. Routers build up heat pretty fast when they're working. Running one for several hours or more likely in your case a full day hogging oak seems like asking a lot. I'd go the shaper route, but remember you'll need a feeder. For about the price of that new Grizzly and feeder, you could likely pick up a used Powermatic 27 with a feeder and have some decent equipment...just saying!
good luck,
JeffD

[David Nelson1]

I thought about just buying a stand alone planer, Jeff, but not only do I then lose the capability of profiling the face of stock, but then I also need to shop for a seperate gang rip machine.

Hi Dirk,

I've been reluctant to post anything to this thread for the plain pure reason I have no experience manufacturing T/G flooring. Having said that, I'm in the process of doing a hard wood floor for my house. I have no time restraints and can work it when the opportunity arises. Big difference from what you are trying to accomplish.

I'm tooling up with a dedicated feeder for a Delta Unisaw. I made a jig to mount it to my Craftsman T/S. I also fit on the jointer but will take a bit of adaptation to lower the unit so I can do the relief cuts on the jointer.

I have also sketched up a diagram that will allow the feeder to be used on the shaper. I'm planning on building a 16 foot sectional lower cabinet that will house a chop saw and the shaper. The feeder will be attached to the fence extension and mounted before the shaper. I plan on using feather boards to keep the wood against the shaper fence.

This is just what I'm planing. Your experience will probably be different than mine.

You may have already seen this post but if not, enjoy.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=142037

BTW I think you have gotten some pretty sound advise. Good luck.

regards,

[AL Ursich]

You may want to look at some mills that do flooring all the time it may be cheaper to buy the flooring than tring to mill it yourself.

Ding ding ding too.....:D

Are you ready for the phone call next winter when his heat is on and 2 floor boards are butt jointed together this summer and in December have shrink .25 inches.....

The first board is 6 inches wide as designed as the moisture content was dry.... the board butted to it was damper or had a higher moisture content in the summer and milled. Now it has dried out and shrunk .25 and the guy wants his money back..... The tells you he has a brother that is a Lawyer.... Just to get your attention....

Milling of the raw stock should be done in careful steps....

Convert it to "Almost" finished stock plus some... Let the stickered lumber dry some more in your shop so the boards equalize.... Use a moisture meter to check boards.

Then finalize the flooring.... Skip any steps now with visions of NEW TOOLS as a result of your hard work will more than likely result in trouble.

Getting your flooring from flooring shop has some really GREAT benifits....

1. You know the stock is right.....

2. If you get almost done and still need a few sticks.... You drive over and get some....

3. If you got too much.... You return it....

4. You concentrate on making sure the floor is properly ready for you.... No loose beams, squeaks, not level...., sags.... don't forget to look under the floor for electrical wires up against the flooring that your nails can pierce.

I still remember the day my 1/4 inch drill bit exploded as I drilled drywall in the bathroom to mount a new towel rack.... I hit the switch wires on the inside the wall.

5. You concentrate on installing the flooring to the best of your ability.

6. As for the Customer Setting the price.... Make sure you do your homework.... There is a thing in the Engraving Forum called the dreaded "Soccer Mom".... They go from Awards Shop to Awards Shop playing each shop to the other... Can you "Beat" this PRICE.....

Don't under value your work.... Do we do it..... Yes..... I did a Sign Design project for a loss learning.... Or darn close to it.... 40 hours of design time for $100.00..... a token $100.00..... Due to Liability the Customer will be installing the cut out letters on the building as part of the deal... Still dealing with the Zoning Officer with size.

Lots of Real World lessons in the TV Show flip this house.... with Flooring.

Good Luck,

AL

[Dave MacArthur]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1464739&posted=1#post1464739

Good deals on shapers in NM if you're near there, apparently. Anyways, thought of you when I saw shapers/tooling for cheap.

Following this thread closely, very interesting to me to read about the time/tooling/profit decision making when doing commercial operation. Some terms that area obviously common in commercial milling ops that I'm not 100% sure on -- "straight line rip", "gang rip", etc. but guess that's a normal jointing/edging operation as I'd do on my PM66 to get a straight edge for milling, then gang-rip would be two blades to rip a blank to width at once, thus getting both the straight-line rip and dimensioning rip at once.

I'll be very interested to hear about any data you take the time to collect on quantity of wood used, percent waste, hours labor/sq ft finished, and what flow you ended up using.

If anyone who does this routinely has time, I'd love to see a more detailed "flow" of the stock from rough to finished, maybe as it would apply to a home shop with jointer, planer, tablesaw, and router (or more likely single shaper).

Good luck!

[Jeff Duncan]

Dave, you've pretty much got it. An SLR (straight line rip) is a big honking industrial machine that can take rough boards and rip them to dimension. A gang rip just rips multiple pieces to width. The biggest difference with these machines is they're built to run all day long and stay accurate.
In commercial operations everything usually boils down to money. As stated previously, I can have my supplier provide stock planed and ripped for much less than it would cost for me to do it myself. I usually don't go that route as I can get the stock flatter than they can by rough cutting to length first. So in that circumstance quality trumps cost. I can buy flooring for much less than it would cost me to make it though. But I really couldn't find an employee for $8 an hour, not to mention taxes and insurance. But even doing it myself I'd be hard pressed to do it cheaper than the mill.
Dirk's situation is different in that his materials and labor are less than what I'd guess most of us consider normal (far less than normal for my area). So you need to keep that in mind when using this for comparison.
As for flow, again this will be different depending on the size of the operation and the end goal. A bigger outfit will likely send rough stock through a SLR and directly into a 5 (or more) head molder as it's the fastest way to get to a dimensioned part. Though not necessarily the flattest parts possible. Smaller operations like mine might crosscut to rough lengths 1st, then joint 1 edge, 1 face, and then through the planer and finally the TS. A more time intensive process but with better results in getting flat stock. And I change up the flow occasionally depending on what kind of parts I need. So although there is a certain general order of operations that will work for most requirements, individual needs will still dictate how you go about milling your stock.
hope this makes sense....good luck,
JeffD

[Greg Portland]

I have not made flooring but I've used the gang rip on my Woodmaster + a single router attachment. The router attachment is OK but requires a very slow feed rate and your bits don't last very long (versus a shaper). The router attachment works fine for small runs of custom rails/styles but I would not want to use it for thousands of linear feet of flooring.

Speaking strictly from a "how would I do it" (not a "would I do it") standpoint I would buy a shaper and do the following:

1) Shaper to joint edge of rough stock
2) Thickness with woodmaster (close to final dimension). You can shove multiple boards through at once.
3) Woodmaster gang rip + back relief cut in one pass. Talk to Woodmaster, you should be able to stick the rip saws + their small moulding cutter head on the accessory shaft at the same time (i.e. rip and do the back relief without buying the router accessory). This would not work on small width flooring but should be fine for 6". Note that doing the back relief cut will require a slower feed rate.
4) Sand face of boards with drum attachment (not sure if this is required in your contract?). The installer will probably sand the final installation instead.
5) Use the shaper to create the T&G. With a shaper this will be very fast. Woodmaster sells vertical cutters (i.e. make a jig to hold boards vertically and cut the edges) but these take awhile to setup accurately.

Be sure to budget a good powerfeeder for your shaper. Good luck!

[J. Linwood Jackson]

OK..here is my two cents. After working in maint. dept. in a flooring mill for 3 years..and then working in a millwork shop running a weinig for 2 years..here is what I think you should do.
Get yer lumber.. inspect it. cut out knots..etc. Try to straight line rip the bunch and get a good idea of yeild for the lot. I don't think 6"+ flooring is a good idea. stick to 4-5"..esp for white oak. and please glue it.. bostik best..
OK. anyway... find some local millwork shop with a 4-5 head molder. weinig,etc. get them to run the whole lot for you. 300-400 bucks maybe.
end match them at your own shop on a shaper....whallah...custom flooring.

i say feck feeding 4000 feet of WO into a planer,jointer,shaper numerous times.
Feed it into a weinig once and be done with it. Run it at 20/ft/min and get crazy good surfaces...

[Lee Schierer]

I see a couple of things missing from your estimate. First you have toe go get the wood, load it on your transportation, drive home, unload it, restack it as you make finished pieces, haul it to the customer, unload it at his place and stack it up. If your transporter has to make several trips, you'll have that much more labor.

You will have at least 8,000 lineal feet of 6" flooring. That would be 800 10' pieces or a bundle of material 5' x 5' x 10' weighing about 9750 pounds. I hope you have a large truck and shop.

[dirk martin]

I have not made flooring but I've used the gang rip on my Woodmaster + a single router attachment. The router attachment is OK but requires a very slow feed rate and your bits don't last very long (versus a shaper). The router attachment works fine for small runs of custom rails/styles but I would not want to use it for thousands of linear feet of flooring.

Speaking strictly from a "how would I do it" (not a "would I do it") standpoint I would buy a shaper and do the following:

1) Shaper to joint edge of rough stock
2) Thickness with woodmaster (close to final dimension). You can shove multiple boards through at once.
3) Woodmaster gang rip + back relief cut in one pass. Talk to Woodmaster, you should be able to stick the rip saws + their small moulding cutter head on the accessory shaft at the same time (i.e. rip and do the back relief without buying the router accessory). This would not work on small width flooring but should be fine for 6". Note that doing the back relief cut will require a slower feed rate.
4) Sand face of boards with drum attachment (not sure if this is required in your contract?). The installer will probably sand the final installation instead.
5) Use the shaper to create the T&G. With a shaper this will be very fast. Woodmaster sells vertical cutters (i.e. make a jig to hold boards vertically and cut the edges) but these take awhile to setup accurately.

Be sure to budget a good powerfeeder for your shaper. Good luck!


I'm with you Greg, but have some questions.....
Why are you doing step 1? Won't step 3 work without step 1?
You are right, step 4 is not neccessary.
I have decided to get a dedicated shaper for the T&G....but then again, with a Woodmaster in my shop to profile the face of boards, wouldn't a Magic Molder handle all my edges?...in that case, I'd save the money by not needing a shaper, and I could use my band saw stock feeder on the Magic Molder / table saw, since the boards will be standing upright, and my bandsaw stock feeder presses in that direction, rather than down.

[Thomas Bennett]

I agree with the comment about finding someone with a large molder to run your flooring. I also agree finding QUALITY 6-8" widths of QSWO , for $2.00 BF, is unrealistic. I hope I'm wrong and you have a source.
I've made flooring with cabinet shop equiptment for 30 years or so. Shapers with powerfeed, jointers and tablesaws...One of the many problems I've had is it's real easy to get off 1/32 here and there which really makes the installers mad,as they are used to perfect widths from a molding machine. Variations in a wide room can cause a nightmare.
I now have a Logosol molder that can run the stock in one pass perfectly. The flooring is only as good as the blank fed into the machine. In other words, I spend more time making the blanks than running the flooring. I do not have a straight-line rip, which I imagine would greatly help the process. I can make it now, but not competitively. It just takes too long.
If you have not made flooring previously, this is a big order. Good luck!

[dirk martin]

You lost me on the "please glue it" part.
glue what?
I thought flooring was always nailed down.

[dirk martin]

I see a couple of things missing from your estimate. First you have toe go get the wood, load it on your transportation, drive home, unload it, restack it as you make finished pieces, haul it to the customer, unload it at his place and stack it up. If your transporter has to make several trips, you'll have that much more labor.

You will have at least 8,000 lineal feet of 6" flooring. That would be 800 10' pieces or a bundle of material 5' x 5' x 10' weighing about 9750 pounds. I hope you have a large truck and shop.


The raw lumber is being delivered to me, free, due to quantity.
I will bundle the finished sticks, and ship it to the customer.
Shipping is rather small, compared to the profit I'm calculating.

[Dave MacArthur]

Bump, wondering how this project ever turned out? Was it as profitable as expected? Or did you have issues achieving 6" from stock as warned? Did your profiling schedule work out, or extra passes needed? Enjoyable thread, hoping to hear how it all worked out.

[Van Huskey]

Bump, wondering how this project ever turned out? Was it as profitable as expected? Or did you have issues achieving 6" from stock as warned? Did your profiling schedule work out, or extra passes needed? Enjoyable thread, hoping to hear how it all worked out.


I wonder how it worked out as well. Also interested in what machines he bought and how they worked out.

[Dave MacArthur]

Bump, is this the same project as this 17 Nov thread? Wondering what ever happened on this one?

[David Nelson1]

I was wondering the same as well

[Tab Warren]

I just want to echo Peter Quin here. The router on the woodmaster is a no go for your application. I have much experience with this tool and making large production runs of flooring. we only use that tool for small stuff and special short runs where a fast setup is important and other tools are set up and or in use. The only time I have seen a router on that unit was to put a finished flat edge with a spiral flush tool. The router just wont stay true enough to the machine for profile work IMHO. Others may disagree.

First you will go through bits like cazy and even if you factor this into your price its just not practical as the setup time will kill you not to mention you wont be able to keep it setup true unless you go REALLY slow. For gang ripping yes, and for relief kerfs yes, but that is it. the rest should be done on a shaper with power feed and a min 3/4 inch spindle. As stated you will need to secure the goods to cover the whole job. plus 20 percent. What is key here is you wont arrive at that until you do rough trimming and jointing. Once you have completed that step you should, in your case, have 5500 bf ready to shape. In other words once you have good 4 sides with kerfs you should be plus 20 percent. Now depending on the goods you could have several thousand br waste as mentioned by others. Again the key is you wont and cannot know this until you have worked the goods some.

I for one am exited for you and the opportunity you have to get some great experience and tooling with this job. I can't give you more than that because I am not able to look at your lumber supply. One thing I will tell you is you must be off with the 2 buks a br. I havient seen that price in over 15 years and we buy loooooottttts of qswo. I think your finished selling price should be more like 7 buks a bf. As I cant see you getting it less than 3 buks a br rough. I am not questioning your integrity but you may have been mislead with your inquiry and should re check. The last point I would make is with respect to finished dimention. If the client wants 6 inch fin face you will need 8 in goods as stated. I would price that out to 7 buks per bf finished product. We would charge 10 delivered. I would also price out a 5.5 inch fin face for the client where you are using 7 in goods. I bet my next boat payment that the client will reach for that. If you stand to make more money on the wider stuff and the client has to have it, push that. If they see the huge bump in price for the full 6 they may buckle and if you stand to make more on the smaller dim; push that.

I just want to say that without seeing the goods that is all I can tell you and I wish you all the success in this project and please let us know how it works out. By the way when you check with your supplier and they stand by that 2 bucks a bf Let me know who it is after you make your purchase because i will head down their and buy all of it.

All the best

[Greg Portland]

I'm with you Greg, but have some questions.....
Why are you doing step 1? Won't step 3 work without step 1?
You are right, step 4 is not neccessary.
I have decided to get a dedicated shaper for the T&G....but then again, with a Woodmaster in my shop to profile the face of boards, wouldn't a Magic Molder handle all my edges?...in that case, I'd save the money by not needing a shaper, and I could use my band saw stock feeder on the Magic Molder / table saw, since the boards will be standing upright, and my bandsaw stock feeder presses in that direction, rather than down.
Well, I'm a few months late responding to this post.

Anyway, the Woodmaster needs a flat edge to index the gang rip saw against. You just can't shove a board through randomly, the blades will make a wandering cut.

[Dave MacArthur]

Probably not going to ever find out what happened... Dirk has posted several threads with projected jobs, lots of folks get interested and give advice, but he has never actually posted on any of them what happened, I've just seen "didn't do that job". Would be nice to know, for folks reading and in similar decision spots, WHY the job fell through and who's analysis of the economics of the job was accurate, but... I think Dirk is maybe too busy to follow up on his threads once the deal falls though.

[Mort Stevens]

I think about this message every once in a while and wonder what ever became of it.

I'm still of the opinion that you can't make flooring for anywhere near the cost of what you can buy premade flooring for. One of the local flooring stores often advertises 3/4" thick, 3" width, random length, solid wood (wood type unknown) unfinished flooring for $2 bucks a square foot.

[Carl Beckett]

Yes - its always disappointing when so much time/discussion takes place and no follow up.

Then repeats.

And the thing that irks me the most about this thread (and delete this post if its inflammatory), is that the individual didnt even step up and make a contribution to the site.

It all seems very uni-directional. If I notice someone that repeats this type of behavior, I am inclined not to respond to future posts.

[Van Huskey]

My guess it did not work out and the OP didn't want to subject himself to the potential of "I told you so" comments...

[guy knight]

why not just buy the flooring premade then sell to him with little to no work and reap the profits

[dirk martin]

Ok gang, finally, here's the results:

It all went well. My "real" job is in Information Technology, so I've been so busy traveling to the far Pacific, to give a full run-down on this project.
My sister ended up taking over this project for me, and she did a perfect job getting it out the door.
Using a shaper, rather than a router was indeed the way to go. I still wonder, at times, if a Magic Moulder (http://magicmolder.com/catalog/floor-magic-molder-lrh-molding-tool.html)would have done the job.
I ended up needing more lumber, because many of you were right, that the rough widths I was planning on using, didn't yield enuf raw material.
But, my supplier was happy to get me more QSWO (yes, at the $2 price!...and NO, I'm not gonna give you his contact info, but I will sell you some QSWO at a great price!). I just ordered double the amount, and then resold what I had as left over, as milled flooring blanks, of various widths.

I now own a nice Grizzly shaper, and an upgraded Woodmaster. I had them put the 7hp motor on the model 718, installed link belts, and it's a fantastic machine.

I ended up jointing on the shaper, and ripping to width on my tablesaw with stock feeder. I didn't want to mess with the gang ripping on the Woodmaster.

Oh, and just a side note, someone was wondering if they make router bits for flooring (rather than shaper cutters), and yes they do (http://americanwoodworker.com/blogs/tools/archive/2011/04/19/well-equipped-shop-make-your-own-flooring.aspx). No, I didn't use them.

The amount of waste chips was staggering, but easy for me to use as mulch, and to burn.

Labor wise, my well trained, boyscout's are happy to have leaned some new skills, and really seamed to enjoy what they were doing. Everyone has their fingers and eyes, as safety comes first in my shop.

Sorry to have ignored so many of you, but will certainly do this again. I'm currently looking at a smaller job, in Purpleheart, as I've got a LOT of Purpleheart that's 18" wide and greater !! And, yes, I paid a bit more than $2/bf for that !!!

I do have a guy, less than a mile from me, that has a 4-5 sided moulder. I'm very interested in seeing what he would charge me, if I provided him with the milled blanks....

[Peter Quinn]

Glad to hear you made a success of this project. Purple heart huh? I just made up a small pile of that for a client, S3S flattened. Not so much fun to work with IMO. I'm guessing that the guy with the molder may also have a straight line or gang rip capable of processing that material much faster than you can. Just a guess, but big machines tend to travel together in packs! Where I work 2 guys could process 4000SF of QSWO form lumber to finished floor in under 2 days, but they don't allow children to work in the mill. What others suggested originally was that you may find a better business selling floors than making them slowly by hand or with small machines. Perhaps not if you do one floor every two years, but should the frequency increase, its nice to have an outsource to meet demand. Well good luck with it, and glad you checked back in to let us know how it all worked out.

PS, and much like a good spy meeting, as far as I'm concerned this flooring venture of yours never happened! No pics, no floor! At least a few shots of a dirty shaper and a dusty wood master! I expect a man in IT to be more forthcoming with digital photos, install shots, etc. People love pictures.

As far as that QSWO supplier......"Ve have vays of making you talk...":cool:

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Always glad to hear a story with a happy ending... but yes, pics would be great!