NEW oliver machinery?

[Zach England]

Is there a general opinion of the new oliver machinery? When i search all I find is stuff about old oliver machinery. I didn't even know the company still existed until I ran across some of their tools when I was considering upgrading my jointer and tablesaw. Their tools are priced very competitively with Powermatic, Laguna, etc., which is the market segment I am looking at. Should they be on the short list?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Zach, I'm not sure I would say that Oliver still exist, the present equipment is made in China, not the USA and there are no ties between the old company and the new.

Regards, Rod.

[george wilson]

It is not new news that this is another old American name bought out by the Chinese.

[Van Huskey]

Is there a general opinion of the new oliver machinery? When i search all I find is stuff about old oliver machinery. I didn't even know the company still existed until I ran across some of their tools when I was considering upgrading my jointer and tablesaw. Their tools are priced very competitively with Powermatic, Laguna, etc., which is the market segment I am looking at. Should they be on the short list?

I am giving there jointers a hard look, my determination for me was the 8 and 10" were overpriced for what you get. In the medium size range (8-10") I think the PM PJ882 is the best machine. Now when you move to the 12-16" range I LOVE their jointers. They are massive and the "ships wheel" adjustment gives an indication of how serious they are. Despite moving on dovetail ways the beds are a seperate casting and adjust easily. If you go with a spiral head Oliver offers a full range of options where PM for instance uses a 2 sided HS cutterhead compared to the Shelix you can get with the Oliver, plus with the Oliver you get a Baldor motor. If the price doesn't scare you off the Oliver 12" jointer would be my pick of "mid-priced" jointers, over the lower end Laguna and the true mid-end like the PM and the Delta DJ-30. Dp know the Oliver machines do have Asian castings now but they are not clones they are built the "Oliver way" though doubtfully at the quality level of old. I do think they are one of the better "importers".

The TS is also intriguing but I have seen nothing to say it merits buying over the "big 3" cabinet saws, the SS, PM and Delta.

One other machine of theirs I really like is the OSS.

[Zach England]

I don't care where it is made. I care how good it is. I'll be curious to see others' responses. I get the feeling it will be a mixed bag and I will probably end up buying the powermatic table saw and laguna or powermatic jointer , but I am still curious...


I should also add I am only looking at 8 inch jointers. My 6-inch jointer doesn't even fit :)

[george wilson]

I have several Taiwan made machines that have been quite satisfactory.

[Zach England]

Hi Zach, I'm not sure I would say that Oliver still exist, the present equipment is made in China, not the USA and there are no ties between the old company and the new.

Regards, Rod.

Very valid point. I should say the brand, not the company.

[george wilson]

Well,now I am wondering if they are USA,after looking at their web site. If not,they are doing a good job of concealing it.

What made me doubtful at first,is that I have a 1950's mechanically variable speed Oliver wood lathe. Back in the 70's,I contacted oliver to get a new belt for it. At that time,they told me that they had no parts,and they had MORE LAWSUITS pending against them than the net worth of their company.

So,maybe they still exist . They give a Washington address,but that could just be where their machines come into port.

Their machines did look very nice,and I have not had a problem with the 2 imported jointers I have bought (1 Grizzly,and 1 Bridgewood) being the least out of alignment on the tables or cutter head.

On the other hand,another shop bought a new Powermatic made in Asia,whose tables were VERY GROSSLY out of alignment. The outfeed table drooped over 1/8"at its far end. No way to fix it,either. They paid big bucks for it,too. So much for the name.

[Van Huskey]

Rod and George there is no question that Oliver is not the Oliver of old, however they are not priced like a US built machine either. A Northfield medium duty 12" jointer costs north of $12,000 new. The Oliver machines these days are priced in line with the "premium" Asian imports. For someone who wants a NEW jointer built in the old school heavy iron way but doesn't have $13,000 to spend the Asian Olivers are definately a viable choice. Having just recently made a trip just to look at Oliver machines I can say that much of their line was very impressive and priced competatively. The 12 and 16" jointers are built in a way I can not imagine them not lasting several lifetimes in a hobby shop. I think often we are far to critical of Asian imports compared to old iron because the new price is not part of the thought process. The new 12" jointer market is past most hobby users point of diminishing returns and the majority either go with old iron or compromise with a combo machine if they want a 12" or more jointer. For the ones who want a new stand alone 12" jointer and are willing to go to the 4-5K range but not the 12-13K range the Delta, PM and Olivers are an excellent choice despite their point of origin. If Asian import equipment were all junk then the majority of people here would have shops filled with junk. I am sad we have lost the NA manufacturing of (almost) Delta, PM, Oliver and the like but if they were still made in the US from US components would we even be talking about buying them new. I have yet to see someone post pictures of their newly arrived fresh from the factory Northfield anything. Just like Asian cars in the 80s Asian machines are beginning to hit their stride and I would be willing to bet 10-20 years from now Felder et al will be looking at one or more of the Asian importers scratching there heads trying to figure out where it all went wrong just like Mercedes had to do in the last 8 or so years with Lexus.

[Van Huskey]

Well,now I am wondering if they are USA,after looking at their web site. If not,they are doing a good job of concealing it.

.


They are an "American" company as well as I can ferret out in the way PM and Delta are still American. To the best of my knowledge they receive the machines built in Asia, QC them and install US Baldor motors and crate them for end user delivery. Oliver is one of the booths I am going to hit hard at IWF since the exact build process is still somewhat of a mystery to me, I will report back when I know more. In the end my "want" will probably be a Oliver, PM or Delta 12" jointer ultimately my wallet will probably vote for the Grizzly for half the price unless I find the perfect used old iron. $2500 buys a lot of wood or other toys!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I agree, I hadn't said anything about the quality of the machinery, simply that they weren't the "old" Oliver company.

You're correct about the old jointers, I believe General finally ceased production of their 12" jointer. As you said a $10K to $15K machine was too expensive for todays market.

Machinery is all about engineering and quality control, which costs money.

Spend some more money, get a better machine, regardless of where it's made.

I'm not sure I'd consider a combo machine a compromise in anything except perhaps lifespan. The oldest combo machine will be in the 50 year old range, certainly not in 100 plus range, so it's difficult to compare.

The old "aircraft carrier" jointers I've used don't produce a more accurate or better machined surface than my compromise combo machine does.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

I'm not sure I'd consider a combo machine a compromise in anything except perhaps lifespan. The oldest combo machine will be in the 50 year old range, certainly not in 100 plus range, so it's difficult to compare.

.


The biggest single compromise with a combo machine is time every other issue you can fix with a "check wrench", or should that be "cheque wrench. :D A DRO can reduce the setup time but seconds add to minutes which add to hours. The accuracy of a good combo J/P is equal to good seperates but without extensions (which I find to be rather hokey, expensive and just one more place to introduce error) you are faced with more setup time for the infeed and outfeed rollers etc. A person with equal skill working on a 80+ inch bed will have an easier time accurately edge jointing a 10' long 12" wide piece of 12/4 stock than on a 60" combo bed unless they spend time setting up infeed and outfeed tables. To some the extra time involved in using a combo machine can be a positive for me it is a distint negative. In the end if it weren't for the space challenges of Europe we would likely not have combo machines just as with another hobby of mine (model railroading) we would likely not have N and Z scale.

My question to you would be: if space was not a consideration and Hammer offered a seperate 12" jointer and planer that were equal in quality to the A3-31 and offered to trade you the pair for the A3-31 what would you do?


PS sorry for the thread jack!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Van, yes if I had the room and the money I would have separate machines rather than a combination machine. (Just to avoid the changeover, which really only takes 20 to 30 seconds).

I think however that I would probably still purchase a Euro jointer, maybe the planer.

I went from a General planer, which was a pricey, high quality machine, to the Hammer.

The Hammer has zero snipe, while the General had limited snipe that I could never eliminate through setup.

The quick change knives sure do spoil you as well, although other machines are available with Tersa like systems.

I don't think I would ever purchase a Northfield or General 12" jointer, they are superb machines however I like some of the Euro features better.

As always, good thought provoking exercises having these virtual discussions with you.......Rod.

[Van Huskey]

I think however that I would probably still purchase a Euro jointer, maybe the planer.


I don't think I would ever purchase a Northfield or General 12" jointer, they are superb machines however I like some of the Euro features better.

As always, good thought provoking exercises having these virtual discussions with you.......Rod.

As always I enjoy it as well!

Quality they are, but about the cheapest you can get into a seperate jointer and planer from Felder is about $20K. :eek: I just have a thing for CI fences, long beds, spiral insert heads and seperates, the cost of those things from Euro machines are astronomical.

In the end shopping jointers I found the Oliver to be the best of the 12 inchers that could be had under $5,000 new and there aren't that many, maybe 6.

[Curt Harms]

but as far as bed length, how many hobbyists need to joint 10'+ stock? I find it easier and less wasteful to cut to rough size first then do the face joint/edge joint/plane routine. 'course I make no claims to knowing what I'm talking about :p.

[george wilson]

Van,I mentioned that I have been satisfied with my Taiwan made machines. These include a 16" metal lathe,an 8" jointer(at home,another at former job),a thickness sander,and a 12" disc/6" belt sander. Also,my Bridgeport clone milling machine from 1986. It has been so satisfactory that I haven't found it necessary to replace it with a real Bridgeport,though several used ones have been available over the years.

I still try to stay away from Chinese made stuff,because they haven't been at it as long as Taiwan,and don't do as well in quality YET.

At work,though,before I left,I bought a Saw Stop,and a Grizzly 8" jointer for the shop. The jointer was VERY accurately made,and the Saw Stop was also very well made. The Grizzly was Chinese.

I don't see why the Powermatic 8" jointer another shop bought was so far out of alignment. It cost nearly 4X what my Grizzly had cost.

These days,unless you can buy goods used machines,it is difficult to buy American stuff,anyway.

I think Oliver is being a bit misleading about where their machines come from,after visiting their web site. None the less,their machines LOOK like they are continuing with the old,heavy duty styles of the original. I might advise that a weak point with Chinese,or Taiwan motors,is their lack of their armatures being dipped in insulating varnish. I have had a few of their motors short out over the years. Then,our electricians said that they were made very cheaply(after they opened them up and looked),and they bought better replacement motors.

I haven't had a problem with replacing an occasional motor,as the overall price was low. However,anything like a built in,direct drive motor could be a problem. The old,16" Oliver in our millwork shop was direct drive. I don't know if the new Olivers are that way.

P.S.: I just revisited their web site,and really CAN'T find a mention of where their machines really come from. Just STRONG HINTS that they are American. When I clicked on their dealer nearest me,in Md.,their list of machinery makers did not include Oliver. Why? All their dealers are clustered along the North East coast. Maybe they are just showing dealers near me,though I didn't log in my area.

This reminds me of the new line of Gretsch guitars when they came back out in the 80's. They listed their "factory" as in Georgia (or S.C.). When I called there,it was like trying to get classified secrets out of them as to WHERE their guitars were made. Well,they certainly weren't made at their "FACTORY." They were Japanese. I finally found some at a local music store,with the little sticker on them. I thought that was very sneaky. The original Gretsch co. went under in the 70's. Their new president has behaved like a jerk to a dealer friend of mine at a nation wide music show. Wouldn't even talk to him. Said he'd have to see a salesman. My friend just wanted to say hello,and he had about a dozen new Gretsches in his store.

It's also hard to see if the jointers are direct drive,but from what little I can see,I think they are direct drive. It has been suggested by another forum,that you take the motors apart,and have them dipped in varnish by a local motor repair shop. That seems a bit of trouble,but for a hard to replace direct drive motor,it might be the best thing to do.

[Van Huskey]

It's also hard to see if the jointers are direct drive,but from what little I can see,I think they are direct drive. It has been suggested by another forum,that you take the motors apart,and have them dipped in varnish by a local motor repair shop. That seems a bit of trouble,but for a hard to replace direct drive motor,it might be the best thing to do.


All 4 of the current Oliver jointers are belt drive but it isn't an issue with motors since they all have US made Baldor motors in them.

It isn't the best jointer out there but I firmly believe it is the absolute best 12" stand alone jointer under $5K. I love the fact the ENTIRE thing stand an all is CI, and it shows with a net weight of 1550#. I was far more impressed than I expected to be, but the reality is I can not justify the money and will probably get the Grizzly...

[george wilson]

Good to hear that they have Baldors. Do you know the price of the 8" jointer?

[Van Huskey]

Good to hear that they have Baldors. Do you know the price of the 8" jointer?


The 8" is about $1500 with knives, $1800 with helical head, they usually come with residential liftgate included and there is usually some wiggle room with price, I think it is over but they had rebates last month as well. It weighs in about 650# so it is heavy for an 8" but I am not sure how I feel about a dovetail jointer. The thing I like about the 12 & 16 is they have a 2 piece top that has easy adjustments built in.

[Zach England]

I just did some price checking on some of the entry-level European combo machines and they sell for a lot less than I had thought. I am re-thinking my upgrade route now. :)

[Van Huskey]

I just did some price checking on some of the entry-level European combo machines and they sell for a lot less than I had thought. I am re-thinking my upgrade route now. :)

Thank the Euro's decline for some of it, though I am no currency genius I am afraid it might continue to trend up like it has for the last month, may be time to strike.

[george wilson]

Right now there are 2 Oliver jointers on Ebay,Business and industrial category,Woodworking section. One is a 16",missing the fence,for $1000.00 buy it now. The other is a complete 12" in Texas,starting bid of $500.00.

[Jeff Monson]

George, toolzone has the 8" jointer listed for 1695.00 with a helical head. I looked at a used oliver shaper a couple of months ago, sliding table, wow what a beast, it was 3 phase so that kept me from buying it. It did appear to be a very nice machine, quality built.

[george wilson]

I meant to also say that these on ebay are older American jointers. They are 3 phase. The 12" looks fine.

[Steve Costa]

In May of 2009 I bought an 8" PM joint with HH. I am in love with this machine.
In December 0f 2009 I bought a 20" PM planer with a HH. The only issue with the planer is snipe which I am working to resolve by reducing the feed tension on the feed rollers. Other than the snipe I love this machine.

I run both of these machines on a 30AMP 220 circuit without any problems.

These machines replaced a 10 year old MiniMax FS30 combo machine. The trade off was less work space and heavier machines for a lighter and more compact machine.

As of now I am very satisfied with the swap. The major issue with the MiniMax was keeping the tables coplaner. When MiniMAx was located in Texas they had great tech support. Now they are in Georgia and the tech support is not very good as the combo machine guy has no knowledge of my 10 year old machine.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Is there a general opinion of the new oliver machinery?

It ain't what it used to be.

[Will Overton]

A lot of brands we know, including Oliver, get at least some of the products from GeeTech;

http://www.geetech.com.tw/sp.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


At 7:47 I emailed Oliver about where their machines are made. Less than an hour later I got this response;

"Hi Bill,

Thank you for your Interest In Oliver Machinery!

Our machines are currently made In Taiwan. However, for our jointers from 10" to 16", we Install an American made Baldor motor on each of them. In addition, we have an option of Installing a Byrd Shelix cutterhead on our jointers and planers.

I hope this Information helps. Thank you.



Regards,

Judy"


If nothing else, they are responsive.

[george wilson]

What is HH?

[Will Overton]

Helical Head

[tyler mckenzie]

I went from a General planer, which was a pricey, high quality machine, to the Hammer.

The Hammer has zero snipe, while the General had limited snipe that I could never eliminate through setup.


Rod are you talking about the general 130 planer? My 130 is fully adjustable, and when tuned right is a zero snipe minty machine. It takes some wrenches but its as solid as a 14" planer gets.

i totally appreciate the tersa system, but for me i actually enjoy setting up knifes.




why don't you buy an old oliver jointer?

[James Malcolm]

Seems that Oliver is the US office for Geetech that will mentioned...

http://www.geetech.com.tw/contact_us.html

[Van Huskey]

but for me i actually enjoy setting up knifes.




?

Masochist :eek:

[tyler mckenzie]

Masochist :eek:

I just don't see how 30 minutes of my time is worth the tersa costs.

[Van Huskey]

I just don't see how 30 minutes of my time is worth the tersa costs.


I am not even a Tersa fan, I like carbide inserts that last sooo much longer and though it takes a while to rotate a whole head it saves so much time in the long run and actually tooling costs as well. IF you mill a decent amount of wood a helical insert head will pay for itself just in tooling costs pretty quickly not even counting your time. Considering carbide inserts will last at least 10 times what a standard blade will last thats 10 hours of savings right there. In the end everyone values their time different and some people actually enjoy the process of setting up tooling, I however hate this process.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod are you talking about the general 130 planer? My 130 is fully adjustable, and when tuned right is a zero snipe minty machine. It takes some wrenches but its as solid as a 14" planer gets.

i totally appreciate the tersa system, but for me i actually enjoy setting up knifes.




why don't you buy an old oliver jointer?

Yes that's the machine and in all honesty I got to zero snipe several times when I did a thorough adjustment.

When I did a partial adjustment after changing knives I didn't get perfect results.

The reason I sold the General was to get a wider jointer, so a combo machine was in order. That meant I didn't need the General planer either.

They're both in a shop about 2 hours away, working great, I saw them this week as I dropped in to say hi on a business trip.

Great machinery, I love General stuff, unfortunately it's all gone from my shop now that the 650 saw has been replaced by a Hammer b3.

Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't own any of their (Oliver) machines but I did poke around them at a WW show several years ago. They are certainly very beefy jointers not lacking in cast iron, I was more impressed by their jointer than the Delta 16" jointer I also looked at. Olivers sales guy explained about the same as has been stated here already....the original company apparently went under due to an overabundance of safety based lawsuits. A new (Asian?) company bought the name and re-started the business (this is all from the sales guy so take it for what it's worth). Obviously they are not making the machines to the original patterns but are using somewhat newer designs. And yes they are trying to push the 'Americaness' (is that even a word?) of the Oliver name as much as possible.
In the end I took the higher road....higher quality that is. I bought separately an Italian made 16" jointer and 20" planer for well under $4k for the pair. They'll run circles around anything costing 2x as much today.
good luck,
JeffD

[Frank Drew]

Right now there are 2 Oliver jointers on Ebay,Business and industrial category,Woodworking section. [One[ is a complete 12" in Texas,starting bid of $500.00.

1957 model, now up to $600+ with sixteen hours to go. If any one gets it for anywhere near this price (even double or triple) it would be a deal, if the machine is as good as they say it is.

I'd drive to Texas myself, in this weather :eek:, to get it if I was in the market for a new jointer.

[george wilson]

I had to replace,with great regret,our 1950's Delta 8" jointer at work. The machine looked just fine,but the table had gotten a few thousanths of wear in places,so that you couldn't get it to cut the same all the way across the table. One side would give some snipe,while the other cut o.k..

The new,cheapest 8" Grizzly jointer was a lot more accurate right out of the box.

[Will Overton]

Judy, from Oliver just got back to me with additional info I asked for.

"Our company bought out the Oliver name in 2000. The original Oliver Machinery Company is Eagle Machinery & Repair, Grand Rapids, Michigan. They handle all old Oliver equipment and parts, and they are also one of our current dealers."

[Irvin Crouse]

This is an old post but I thought I would reply anyway. I had a PM 8 with a Byrd Head. Great machine. I decide to get a 12 inch jointer. I don't have a huge shop but wanted seperates. Like several of you had mentioned I looked at most of the ones available in that size. I ended up getting the Oliver 12 with the Byrd Head. It is a great machine. The tables are relatively easy to adjust to coplaner. 1500 plus lbs of cast iron. Tables are very smooth, accurate and long. There is almost no vibration. The cutter head is I believe 4 inches with 6 rows of knives spinning at 6000 rpms so the cut is as good as I have seen off any machine. I did use the PM 12 inch which is a good machine but not as smooth to run and adjust. My understanding is the owner owns a big machine company in Taiwan which does contract for PM and other. He wanted to develop his own line with beefier machines. I have also used a Northfield straight knife 16 jointer with direct drive. Maybe the best machine you could buy. I did not like the slower cutter head speed of the direct drive. You have to feed the board slower. The new Oliver 12 and some of their other machines may not be the level of the old Oliver but it is an excellent machine and the best jointer I have used.