Suggestions to make outdoor black/brass signs for golf course

[Zsolt Paul]

I have to bid on some signs for a country club/golf course, so obviously they have to perform well outdoors. There are 2 different jobs / signs.

1: Tee markers. Approx 12x18". Has to have the appearance of cast brass signs. Black reverse (background) with brass lettering and have a thickness of cast metal, proably around 1/4".
I looked at some IPI plastics "gold coast". Looks promising... can anyone confirm if they are exterior grade? They are too thin so I'd have to mount them to a substrate. What would be the best choice for that? Acrylic?

2: Small round or oval markers that will be on the ground, sticking up only a few inches, approx 6-8" in diameter. They wanted it to be stone. I was thinking black granite with gold printers ink. I was always told printers ink will do well outdoors, but had always used them indoors. Does anyone have experience with VanSons printers ink outdoors (or similar)?

Thanks much!

[Rodne Gold]

I would do the markers in Corian or the like and paint fill.
The bigger signs I would do in perspex , 6mm , and fill the engraving with gold rub'n buff or gilding wax.
Engraving plastics generally wount work well outdoors
You can also consider a 3-6mm black perspex base and actually cutting the letters in 3mm gold perspex and applying them to the black substrate if they insist on the "bronzed" look with raised lettering.
look here for ideas
http://hallmarkengraving.com/faux_bronze

[Mike Null]

I agree with Rodney.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'd call Gemini and get them to price the cast bronze for outdoors. They'll last forever. Using engraving plastics for that is asking for a call back in no time.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'd call Gemini and get them to price the cast bronze for outdoors. They'll last forever. Using engraving plastics for that is asking for a call back in no time.

Agreed. There is nothing like cast bronze so trying to find an alternative is a waste of time. I did a few google searches and it seems people online are able to provide hole plaques about the size you're looking at for $200-600. For that size of sign, I don't think that is that high.

I also like the idea of using Corian. Its more profitable for you but I can't imagine, when all said and done, you charging a hell of a lot less than the bronze due to all the labor/machine time. You do have the advantage of having that 100W laser which will make the the whole process a hell of a lot faster.

As for the stone marker, I think white against the granite looks best. Otherwise, gold leaf is another popular option.

[Dave Gates]

Try checking out a company called Trademark Designs. They work with etched zinc and can color it to look like bronze signs. Usually ends up less than a cast metal plaque.

[Conrad Fiore]

Paul,
The average list price for a cast bronze plaque of that size is around $700.00. The trade discounts run 40-50% of the list price. Bronze will outlast the golf course itself. The round yardage markers are quite a bit less in cost.

[Zsolt Paul]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

I would do the markers in Corian or the like and paint fill.
The bigger signs I would do in perspex , 6mm , and fill the engraving with gold rub'n buff or gilding wax.
Engraving plastics generally wount work well outdoors
You can also consider a 3-6mm black perspex base and actually cutting the letters in 3mm gold perspex and applying them to the black substrate if they insist on the "bronzed" look with raised lettering.
look here for ideas
http://hallmarkengraving.com/faux_bronze

Thanks for the link Rodney. I checked out the faux bronze, interesting idea. I sent them an email. How is it different from the IPI gold coast? The .60 guage is rated outdoors. If you have a moment, please check this out:
https://www.johnsonplastics.biz/category/M37/1/1/1639 (https://www.johnsonplastics.biz/category/M37/1/1/1639)


Try checking out a company called Trademark Designs. They work with etched zinc and can color it to look like bronze signs. Usually ends up less than a cast metal plaque.

Thanks. I am waiting to hear back from them as well.



I also like the idea of using Corian. Its more profitable for you but I can't imagine, when all said and done, you charging a hell of a lot less than the bronze due to all the labor/machine time. You do have the advantage of having that 100W laser which will make the the whole process a hell of a lot faster.

As for the stone marker, I think white against the granite looks best. Otherwise, gold leaf is another popular option.

Yeah, what's also nice about the corian option is that it can be a solid thickness as opposed to mounted/veneered together.

[Zsolt Paul]

....and of course, yes I agree, there is nothing like cast bronze. All of this only makes sense if it comes out way cheaper.

[Zsolt Paul]

Can anyone explain the difference (or the similarities for that matter) between Rowmark Metalgraph Plus and IPI plastic "Gold Coast"? How are they similar, how are they different? Where is one more advantagous over the other? I am really a wood guy and w/e experince I've had with acrylic was interior, so a lot of this is new to me.

Hallmark engraving was very helpful, they are sending me a sample, including of their faux brass. I assume that's also going to be similar to the above 2 mentioned products....or not?

[Scott Shepherd]

Paul, I think you are making a mistake using either for that application. I have Rowmark Metalgraph Plus outside on about 500 signs I did for a community. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't use either products you mentioned. The foils on the metalgraph can break loose where you engrave it, causing flaking. Ask me how I know. Okay, don't ask, because I'd really not like to relive that experience.

[Zsolt Paul]

Thanks for advice. I am leaning towards vector cutting the black backroud (acrylic) and recess solid color letters into it to stay away from foils. It would still be sticking out, look like an overlay but much more protected and solid in terms of gluing the letters in. Now I just have to find brass / bronze looking solid color acrylic which probably doesn't exist. :( I could have Gemini make up real brass letters and use though....

I do find it amazing that romark's metalgraph plus and IPI plastics gold coats .06 thickness are all marketed as "exterior" product with metal look and yet it seems from everyone's feedback they are not very good for outdoors.

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree Paul, they all say outdoors and UV stable, etc, but they just don't seem to hold up well. I think it's probably because the top layer is so thin so it's laser friendly. I've seen normal engraving plastic for the rotary machine outside for 10 years or more and it's still readable, no issues at all. I guess in the right application, some of it would be fine, but I almost never quote using rowmark or IPI plastics for outdoor jobs. Every once in a while someone will request it, and we'll do it, but we tell them our concerns and let them decide.

In reality, most people don't care. They were given a task to complete and that's all they want to do. They generally don't care if it last 2 years and falls apart because in 2 years, they'll be in a different position or a different job at a different company. Just my observation.

[Dee Gallo]

In reality, most people don't care. They were given a task to complete and that's all they want to do. They generally don't care if it last 2 years and falls apart because in 2 years, they'll be in a different position or a different job at a different company. Just my observation.

And on the other hand, I know a guy who is a "famous" hand signpainter (in this dinky place where I live) whose signs always last two years and then peel like mad. He takes full advantage of what you describe. I asked him about this and he told me he does not prime so that the work has to be done again in 2 years... that way he gets more work. Terrible work ethic in my book, but he is always employed even in this tiny market, probably because there are no more walldogs left... everything is vinyl which is limited in its artistic uses. Planned obsolescence is everywhere. I've painted signs which are over 15 years old and still not peeled.

:( dee

[Daryl Gregg]

The cheap way to do it is black brass & have them powdercoated clear