Trifecta - Vent, Gloat, Question

[Dan Chouinard]

Spent two days making a mahogany bookcase with finished panel on one side. Five non-adjustable shelves dadoed into carcase sides which creates all those inside corners that are a pain applying finish to. Decided to prefinish all parts of faceframe and carcase before assembly. Went together quite nicely, looking like this would be a beauty. Last woodworking procedure before final finish was to run flush trim router down the stile on the finished panel end panel side and sure enough I tipped the router somehow and destroyed stile. Insert profanities here.

This will not happen again. To damn risky to flush trim after all that meticulous work. What I need is a really good sander to flush stile with end panel so I went straight to Woodcraft and bought the Festool ETS 150/3 and the dust extractor!

Does the extractor peformance justify its cost?

Thanks,
Dan

[Larry Fox]

Great gloat - sorry about the stile. Could you have done this with a few swipes of a block-plane? I find that it gives me better control (I don't like routers).

[John Keeton]

Dan, congrats on the sander:D, condolences on the router mess-up!:mad:

But, the cleanest and most simple way of accomplishing the task is with a nice, sharp block plane - no dust, and low risk of further damage.

That said, there will be hundreds of opportunities to use that nice 150/3!! Wish I owned one, but I don't wish for an opportunity like yours to need one!

[Brian Kincaid]

Does the extractor peformance justify its cost?
Yes it does.

Sorry to hear about the flush trim problem. I have been there and it's not a happy place.
-Brian

[Greg Portland]

Does the extractor peformance justify its cost?The Festool vac's strengths are variable suction and "real" filtering. Many HEPA vacuums just contain a HEPA filter (while dust blows around and past the filter). The Festool does a very good job of only exhausting clean air. This is important if you don't like wearing a dust mask, install in a home (need to keep things clean) or finish in the same room as your work area (no dust on the finish).

Fein also makes an excellent vacuum but their model does not have the variable suction. That feature is very useful for sanders because it keeps the sander from being sucked down onto the workpiece (you don't want a vacuum clamp!). I have seen people buy a Y splitter for their Fein vacs and cover one end with a cap. They drill holes in the cap (or a progressively larger hole) until they get the right amount of suction @ the sander. A solid cap is used to cover that port when using saws, etc. that require maximum airflow.

[glenn bradley]

Congrats on the sander. An offset plate for your router or a block plane might be more versatile but folks love those sanders.

[Callan Campbell]

Great sander and vacuum. I've owned the 150/5 and the CT-22 since 2004. I love them both. I've since added Oneidas dedicated Festool cyclone Dust Deputy to my Festool vacuum and even run my 8" drum floor sander with it[floor sander on its own outlet, not plugged into the machine:D;)] to almost stop the dust while floor refinishing. Even without a 2 stage dust collection add-on, the Festool Vacuums perform flawlessly for anyone using one. Just remember to work the cleaner bar for the main filters to knock the loose dust build-up off them if your vacuum came with the green slide-out bar at the rear[don't know which model you bought].
You have your choice of regular main filter, or HEPA filters, and I think there's a 3rd "long life" filter available as well. Keep an eye on the bag inside your vacuum, as the dust collection is so effective from almost all Festool products that you can really pack the dust into the bags without realizing it, then you end up with a mess inside the vacuum if the bag pops off the suction port and the mess swirls around inside the vacuum cabinet from an overfilled bag.
Also, some people have poked a hole in their vacuum bag when closing the lid of the vacuum after checking their bags for fullness/fill. The culprit is the water sensors that hang down under the lid, they're used in a "wet" vac usage that most people don't run with their Festool vacuums, even though it's set-up for it by design. Enjoy your new tools....:cool::cool::cool:

[Will Rowland]

Fein also makes an excellent vacuum but their model does not have the variable suction.

The "new" model Fein vacs - distinguished by having 6 wheels instead of 4 - do now have variable suction.

I purchased a Fein Turbo II with variable suction a few months ago; it works great.

For the older Fein vacs, there is an inline accessory that has a sliding port on it that you can use to regulate suction.

[Peter Quinn]

The vacs are great, I love the sander, congrats on both, and I don't mean to second guess your technique, but let me be the first to ask WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? That exact technique is pretty much SOP where I work. What router and bit where you using? We use a PC 310 laminate trimmer with a 1/4" spiral carbide flush trim, often using a climb cut. We don't leave a very large amount of material to remove, just 1/32" or so. At home I do the same with a bosch colt. This is not the place to pull out the big outboard motor sized router and have at it. Too tippy, too hard to control. The little laminate trimmer is like an extension of my hand, as if I were Edward router hands! It also helps to lay the cabinet on its back and place the router on the face of the stile in the horizontal plane in case you weren't already doing that.

I don't like pummeling the edge of a narrow stile or corner with a ROS, and I wouldn't be so quick to give up on that router. The sander can make waves, round over edges irregularly, reduce the flat on a molded profile as you try to grind hard spots in certain species, just not a perfect method. As others have noted a sharp block plane and a bit of consideration for grain orientation can also make short work of this situation, or if you must a belt sander with a light touch, but the ROS? That scares me.:eek:

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

This is hard to admit in public but I suck with a hand plane. There I said it. Like I have previously stated on this forum, my career progression has been; College drop out, residential framing, finish carpenter, transitioning to cabinetmaker. My skills with power tools were such that I could achieve beautiful results without things like sharp hand planes. Wiz with mitre box, coping saw, freehanding scribe rips on TS (dont try this at home kids). I can freehand with a circular saw like its on tracks or use it to scribe baseboard to hardwood flooring like it grew there.

Cabinetmaking as you all know is a different animal than the production oriented finish carpentry I have done for 15+ years. I recognize the need and have the desire to become skilled with hand tools. I would love to learn how to select the proper hand plane for any procedure that is required and know how to tune that thing and make it sing. My goal is to work full time in a dust free shop with quality power and hand tools and never lug tools onto a jobsite again. And my days of freehanding into a table saw are over. As are ruining beautiful cabinetry with flush trim routers!

What is the 1st hand plane I should purchase to avoid the horror show I experienced yesterday? Where should I look for clear and correct sharpening instruction?



I will certainly keep the ETS 150 /3 ( although I am not 100% certain it is the correct Festool sander for cabinet doors and face frames. In fact today I was told that the 150/5 would be more appropriate?) and the CT 22 Dust Extractor.

Thanks again guys,
Dan

[Frederick Rowe]

Dan - Start with a good low angle block plane. From least expensive to most: an old Stanley 60 1/2 (add a Hock blade if desired), a new Stanley 60 1/2 SW, a Veritas Low Angle Block Plane (several versions available), or the Lie Nielsen 60 1/2. After that, try a #4 bench plane (same price point/vendor progression as above).

The key here is take some time and if necessary find some assistance, to learn how to sharpen the blade. If you've never sharpened a plane iron to the point where it will shave the hair from your arm, you'll have to redefine what you think sharp is. Whether water stone, oil stone, sandpaper on glass/granite; the expense is relatively small, and once mastered, it will change how you work with wood.

There are lots of online information on sharpening, beginning here at SMC-Neanderthal Haven. Some good demonstrations on YouTube, and FineWoodworking. Good DVD's are Rob Cosman's Hand Planing & Sharpening and David Charlesworth's Hand Tool Techniques Part 1: Plane Sharpening.

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks Frederick for the suggestions.

My repair to the bookcase was a bust yesterday. The veneer on the mahogany plywood is so paper thin that it wore off trying to flush with stile repair. Insert more profanities here.

Is the veneer always this thin or did I get some bad ply?

Thanks
Dan

[John Keeton]

Is the veneer always this thin or did I get some bad ply? DanIn a word, yes! The current trend of selling as small a serving as possible, coupled with advanced veneering capabilities has left us with veneer plywood that will barely withstand a good steel wool!

[Jeremy Brant]

Another idea that will augment the power tools you already own is an offset router base. You can take a look at Pat Warner's site and see some examples and a better description than I can provide. He sells a fine version, or you can fabricate yourself: http://www.patwarner.com/offset_subbase.html

[Dan Chouinard]

Is it ok to gloat about a repair?

Well if it isnt, screw protocol and let me say the second repair was a success. Just thrilled to not have to build a replacement bookcase which was looking like a possibility.
The first repair attempt was to festool rip 1/2 inch off the stile and glue and clamp new piece in its place. Also replaced the 1/2 inch of damaged ply using the festool track saw. The stile replacement was a mismatch in color and grain and once again the veneer of the ply wore off trying to sand flush with stile using the 150/3.
With full removal of stile not an option, and no stock that would match perfectly, my last ditch effort was to "veneer" a replacement. Laying the case on its back, I set the blade on the track saw an inch and a quarter deep and made a rip 1/4 inch in from outside edge of stile. Turning case on its side and setting the blade 1/2 inch deep, I made rip cut 1 1/4 from front of face frame. This process was repeated on the front of the case resulting with the removal of 1/4 inch of thickness the full width of stile, and 1/4 inch removal of edge grain of stile and the 1/2 inch of damaged ply. All that was needed to complete repair was to mill two pieces of mahogany 1/4 inch strong in thickness and ripped to the necessary width to fill the void front and side. Some glue and clamps and very careful sanding with custom sanding block made with spray adhesive, left me with a perfect repair ready for finish.

A very releaved,
Dan