Clear Finish over India Ink....

[John Thompson]

Getting ready to ebonize some maple with Speedball Super Black India Dye. I have never used India Ink before but on test scrap on both maple and poplar this stuff is fantastic to ebonize with. Niether have tannins for the most part so my rust and vinegar formula is out.

So... for those that have ebonized with India Ink what clear finish have you used over it. Once the Ink dries it is supposedly waterproof? Can I use clear water based poly without smearing the dried ink? I am farily certain shellac or oil based poly will work but I really don't want the slight hint of amber it will likely add in this case.

Anyone experienced with finishing over India Ink.. your advice would be greatly appreciated. I could just purchase some water based poly and test but I don't use it normally so before I do I would lke to stay one step ahead of simply experimenting.

Thanks in advance...

[Jay Jolliffe]

I haven't used the India ink but I have used black dye. First I tried just applying the finish over & it pulled the dye so I sprayed a shellac seal coat & then applied the finish. Worked great didn't pull the dye. Do a test piece to find out

[Prashun Patel]

I believe India Ink is water/alcohol soluble, so I'd bet you'd have issues doing anything but spraying a waterbased product on top of it.

If it were me, I'd seal it in with dw shellac.

[Scott Holmes]

I have used ink to ebonize wood; a seal coat of de-waxed blonde shellac sprayed is your best bet to lock the ink in place

[John Thompson]

Thanks... Jay.. Shawn and Scott. I did a simple test dragging a wiping rag with distilled water over the dried India Ink earlier tonight. It did not pull all the ink off but the wipe pad did have traces on it even though I used the same light stroke I would with poly. So.. IMO forget the water base.

I also wiped some oil based poly on and got a slight hint of ink but not enough IMO to be a pest wiping with oil poly. The India Ink does a through job of spreading and adhering to both maple and poplar for the most part. And I found that the hint of amber from the oil based did not effect the very dark black as the black ink highly over-powers the amber tone.

But.. I totally agree that a "sprayed" seal coat of de-waxed clear shellac would be the best approach to seal off the ink and avoid any wipe off with a wipe finish. The problem I have is I don't have a spray system so I would have to wipe the shellac. I could use cans but.. I have 24 sq. ft. to cover and I fear the worst on an even cover using spray cans. And.. they aren't giving it away so a failure would be costly in both shellac and wood with a re-build.

My solution is reduced to simply wiping on the seal coat of de-waxed shellac. But.. when using shellac and hand wiping the procedure is to wet your wipe rag with the solvent for shellac which is of course de-natured alcohol and then wring out excess to reduce drag when you apply the actual shellac. I am afraid the alcohol on the wipe rag will blotch the surface when making the passes.

So... tomorrow I will set up another test piece with the Ink.. allow it to throughly dry and apply a wiped coat of shellac on two pieces. One with the de-natured alcholol wipe rag and one without to see just how much drag I will get. Worth a try in lieu of investing in expensive spray equipment.

Has anyone used spray cans to cover that much area? Again the area is about 24 sq. feet. I simply have never done well spraying from cans and getting an even flow over an area... much less 24 sq. feet. haha...

So.. we shall see.... we shall see! :)

[David Cefai]

Speaking from the depths of my ignorance, can't you brush on the shellac? It's going to be a weak cut anyway so you are not likely to leave brushmarks.

I recently stained the oak frame of a coffee table black with an NGR stain. Like you I got traces of black when wiping the surface but a coat of shellac sorted it out.

[Joe Chritz]

If you have even a middle of the road compressor the spray equipment isn't that expensive.

Check out DeVillbis finishline 3.

I spray 90% of the time so I can't help much on wiping any shellac finish.

Joe

[John Keeton]

Sarge, I don't believe the shellac in a spray can is dewaxed. You could always get one of the Critter (http://www.amazon.com/Critter-Spray-Products-22032-Siphon/dp/B00006FRPJ) spray setups - or, I believe HF has their spray stuff on sale this weekend. Just a thought.

[John Thompson]

First.. thanks David.. Joe and John K!

David... my thoughts late last night on the brushing. Thanks for your comments as it tells me someone has actually done it sucessfully before I invest the time experimenting. I haven't brushed on a finish in years but I did for many years before that. I am going to make a practice run latter today after my new test pieces of India throughly dry. I still have quality brushes from yesteryear so that factor is covered. If that doesn't work I will go to plan Bravo or Charlie.. :)

Joe and John K... thanks for your in-put. I had considered a cheaper spray rig as I believe Woodcraft may have one on sale also. I was just not sure how well cheap works in the long run as you generally get what you pay for and sometimes cheap price relates to cheap results. I have never felt the need to have spray capability but.. if the cheaper will work I may consider it as I am branching out a bit on my style of work and perhaps the time is right. I don't particulary want to spend time on the "learning curve" with the spray equipment but... a man has to do what a man has to do"! ;)

Again.. thanks to all commenters for their input as every tid-bit of info has helped me draw my own conclusions. Thank God as I don't have a lick of common sense to speak of. haha.. hahaha

[Prashun Patel]

John-
You will (ironically) worsen yr problem by attempting to wipe or brush shellac on.

JK's right; the rattlecan's from the BORG are dewaxed. They're perfect for this kind of thing, since they're super thin coats, and won't lift the color out.

In fact, if you are still thinking to use the BORG waterbased or oilbased polys, you could actually 'seal' the ink in with a spray can of either one of those too.

[Joe Chritz]

If you have to go with a turbine they will be pretty expensive and it is well worth waiting to get a good one.

If you have a decent size compressor (I ran my HVLP on a 110 circuit 20 gallon tank for years) it isn't very much. The DeVillbis mentioned is their entry level gun. A single needle and tip gun with an aluminum cup is about $150. If you do any paint projects the 3 tip gun is about $225 and has up to a 2.2mm fluid tip.

I can spray SW proclassic thinned 10% pretty well with a 1.8 tip. BIN primer unthinned just as well.

The learning curve is very easy and if you stick with a top cup gun (gravity feed) the clean up is a snap. I fully disassemble for cleaning and it takes about 4 minutes to be fully done when using waterbase. A tad longer for solvent.

Joe

[John Thompson]

John-
You will (ironically) worsen yr problem by attempting to wipe or brush shellac on.

JK's right; the rattlecan's from the BORG are dewaxed. They're perfect for this kind of thing, since they're super thin coats, and won't lift the color out.

In fact, if you are still thinking to use the BORG waterbased or oilbased polys, you could actually 'seal' the ink in with a spray can of either one of those too.

Thanks for the follow up Shawn. There is a discrepancy in your statement of JK's right... the rattlecan's are dewaxed. According to JK he stated he didn't think they were? I have a can on hand I use to seal end grain on AC tops I leave open end. No problems with that and oil base poly going over it. I read the can and it does not Clearly say contains on wax as a can of Zinzer's sanding sealer shellac does. Any clarification on that as I expect the rattlecan is wax free. If there is doubt I will call Zinzer.

But with that said.. I have 3 test pieces drying. I have to run to my hardwood supplier for a few tid-bits I missed yesterday as I just finished a rough cut down to workable size. I will brush one.. spray one with the Zinzer rattlecan I have.. etc.

Again... thanks for your concern

[Prashun Patel]

I re-read JK's post. I always thought it WAS dewaxed.

[John Thompson]

If you have to go with a turbine they will be pretty expensive and it is well worth waiting to get a good one.

If you have a decent size compressor (I ran my HVLP on a 110 circuit 20 gallon tank for years) it isn't very much. The DeVillbis mentioned is their entry level gun. A single needle and tip gun with an aluminum cup is about $150. If you do any paint projects the 3 tip gun is about $225 and has up to a 2.2mm fluid tip.

I can spray SW proclassic thinned 10% pretty well with a 1.8 tip. BIN primer unthinned just as well.

The learning curve is very easy and if you stick with a top cup gun (gravity feed) the clean up is a snap. I fully disassemble for cleaning and it takes about 4 minutes to be fully done when using waterbase. A tad longer for solvent.

Joe

Thanks for the tips on sprayer and spraying Joe. I am going to try the rattlecan's this afternoon. If that is not effective I will resort to back-up plan Charlie which is I have several friends that have professional spray equipment in the body business. One has agreed to spray for me if my own efforts to remain a "one man band" fail but.. I now have interest in my own spray equipment for some future use so your comments are well recieved.

Thanks... off to Suwanee Lumber which is about 15 minutes away.

[John Thompson]

I re-read JK's post. I always thought it WAS dewaxed.

I'll give Zinzer a call when I return from just up the road at my hardwood supplier. I want that ink to throughly dry anyway. I am really clueless as the directions says that it will work under oil based poly. I am not concerned with water based at this point as my test proved that the amber tint is a non factor being over-powered by the black itseld. It would take a Hubble telescope to see the amber under that Mid-nite black coat the ink leaves. haha...

Gotta run as my wood guy's close at 4 PM...

[John Keeton]

It is my understanding that the only de-waxed product from Zinsser's is the Seal Coat, which is a 2# cut, de-waxed product. I believe all the other to contain wax.

That said, even waxed shellac is apparently compatible with many finishes, and has been used by many over the years without difficulty. I think the problems arise with some of the new finishes, and particularly the waterbased finishes.

In fact, I often use the waxed shellac if I am out of the other, as a sealer under poly and other solvent based finishes, and I have never had an issue. Might 30 years from now, but honestly, those will be someone else's problem!!!:D Short of a miracle, I doubt I will be here.

[John Thompson]

It is my understanding that the only de-waxed product from Zinsser's is the Seal Coat, which is a 2# cut, de-waxed product. I believe all the other to contain wax.

That said, even waxed shellac is apparently compatible with many finishes, and has been used by many over the years without difficulty. I think the problems arise with some of the new finishes, and particularly the waterbased finishes.

In fact, I often use the waxed shellac if I am out of the other, as a sealer under poly and other solvent based finishes, and I have never had an issue. Might 30 years from now, but honestly, those will be someone else's problem!!!:D Short of a miracle, I doubt I will be here.

Interesting JK.. I dug deep on the rear of my rattlecan and found a very tiny print that said it contains "no wax". I was sure the regular Zinzer shellac did with only the Seal Coat not having it as you suggested. I tried to find the Zinser phone number but the site came up as bogus on my computer when I searched. It may be on the back of the can also and I will call to be sure.

Anyhoo.. I am about to spray from the rattlecan I have on the test piece. But.. I would really like to know for future reference if the spray does or does not?

Back to the shop before a quick shower and take the First Lady to dinner which contain "no wax".. well..... as far as I know. haha...

Have a good day good sir.... I will post the results tomorrow or latter in the evening.

[Scott Holmes]

The aerosol can of shellac is indeed DE-WAXED.

[John Keeton]

Well, I happily stand corrected!! Very glad to hear that the spray can is de-waxed!! I will be getting a couple more to have available. It is so nice to use to seal in dyes, etc., but I was afraid of it with some of the finishes I use.

I am just used to writing fine print, not reading it!!:D

[John Thompson]

The aerosol can of shellac is indeed DE-WAXED.

Thanks for the in-put on that Scott. The fine print says so but you have to look very close to find that as opposed to the quart of Zinsser Sealer which is clearly on the front.

Regards...

[Mike Wilkins]

India Ink works great. Like others have stated: you need to spray the first coat or you will have a cloudy mess after the finish lifts the ink off the wood.

[John Thompson]

Thanks to all that have lent a hand. Here are pictures of my test pieces. One is wiped on Zinsser Seal Coat from a can.. one brushed on Zinsser Seal Coat from a can.. the other two are Zinsser rattle-can. The India Ink is Speedball Super Black.. three wipe coats of semi-gloss poly applied over the shellac seal coat.

I will guess you can't distinquish which is sprayed.. wiped or brushed. Just a guess mind you! My wife probably could as she has a Hubble Tele-scope she has to look for flaws which is also a guess as she sure doesn't miss many. haha.. hahaha

At this point I think I might get lucky and get the ink on without a major snaffu. It's been a brief but fun learning experience but now I at least have a clue! :)