Hand cut dovetails

[Greg Labacz]

Does any of you do hand cut dovetails instead of using a jig.I can't afford a jig right now and would like to try and do them by hand.

[Terry Beadle]

Hello and welcome.

There is a neander formum that covers hand cut dovetails in many threads. There are discussions on related tools such as saws, chisels, marking techniques, tails first vs sockets first etc.

Also on youtube there are videos that show how to cut them. Frank Clause and Rob Cosman have vids showing how to cut dovetails in just a few minutes. Entertaining but not the best tutorial on how to do it.

Good Luck !

[Kevin Grady]

VillageCarpenter has a great video on cutting dovetails. My favorite video for hand cut dovetails is by John Bullar called "Dovetail Joints Made Easy"

[John Thompson]

I starting cutting them by hand in 1972. I purchased an in-expensive jig about 10 years ago and used it once. I sold it for half what I paid as I don't like the limitations that most jigs have in size and spacing. My current tools are an Exacto knife.. a $19 Irwin 19 T pull saw.. a mallet and a set of 1976 Marples "blue beaters" which are about an inch shorter than when I purchased them in 1976 from sharpening. Cheap fix but more potential than a jig IMO.

As stated there are books and videos available on "how-to" but you still have to practice on sawing.. lay-out and chopping away waste. But.. once you do you are never limited on size and spacing and you have created a quite strong "signature joint" with the look of a hand cut. It's rather obvious when a DT is machine or hand cut.

Good luck...

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Since you are in Philly...you are conveniently located near the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop. Alan Turner (teacher/craftsman/school-founder, who is here on SMC sometimes) and Mario Rodriguez (author/craftsman of great prominence) are great teachers!

And they offer a two day class on hand cutting the joints. They start with a primer on tools, cutting to the line, drawer design considerations, and then will get you going with through dovetails. Day two is half-blinds. Two different marking techniques were covered. Almost everyone in my class was doing okay by the end of the weekend. After that it is really a matter of LOTS OF PRACTICE.

[Greg Labacz]

thanks for all your replies, I'll look into the school

Greg

[Rob Cunningham]

A second vote for the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop. I have taken a few classes there. Alan and Mario are both great guys and fantastic craftsmen and teachers.

[Van Huskey]

Not sure a $300+ class is the answer for soneone who says he can't afford a dovetail jig...


Hit up the Neander forum, lots of posts that will get you started in the right direction there.

BTW welcome!

[David Weaver]

Does any of you do hand cut dovetails instead of using a jig.I can't afford a jig right now and would like to try and do them by hand.

From a price standpoint, probably the cheapest you're going to be able to make reasonably elegant looking dovetails is to get a beater backsaw or a japanese combination dozuki ($35?) and a couple of beater chisels and belt sand the bevels down on them so that the sides aren't tall.

I have never used a dovetail jig or cut them with a machine, but I have invested far more $$ in cutting them by hand than a jig would've cost. That's no problem, because by hand is the way I want to do them.

The other consideration is time. If you're a hobbyist, you'll spend probably 5 or 6 hours of practice time before you can feel comfortable that you'll be able to get acceptable dovetails on a drawer or small carcass, something you could use without doing 3 corners and totally ruining the fourth. Once you are comfortable, it'll probably still take an hour to do a servicable drawer, and more if you want it to really look perfect.

The plus side is that 10 years down the road, you'll be using the same tools to do dovetails, and you can do them however you want to mark them. The jig person will be looking for the next new thing in jigs.

[David Weaver]

Not sure a $300+ class is the answer for soneone who says he can't afford a dovetail jig...


I agree - an inexpensive saw and some user-modified chisels as well as some syp 1x4s from the local construction supply place will teach you just as much.

Last time I checked here, SYP 1x4s 8 feet long are $4. You can make and cut off and remake a lot of dovetails on boards that size.

[Larry Fox]

I am no master at hand cut dovetails for sure but working at it. I agree with most of the advise here EXCEPT for the inexpensive saw. I would vote for getting the best saw you can find as it will give you a leg up in that you won't have to fight with / question your tools and can focus on technique. Just my opinion - ymmv.

[John A. Callaway]

No else will say it.... so I will. spend the hundred bucks on Rob Cosman's Dovetail degree videos and book. If you have never cut a dovetail joint by hand in your life, this is probably the best place to start.

I promise you ( from personal experience ) that the videos are worth it, and will have you feeling confident the first time you pick up the saw at the bench after watching them.

After you have watched the videos enough to master the joint, you could sell the DVDs on ebay and recoup most, if not all of your money back.

[Harold Burrell]

Here is a link to a video that actually helped me a LOT...

http://www.woodworkingonline.com/2008/08/04/podcast-36-hand-cut-dovetails-with-robby-pedersen/

[John Downey]

Not sure a $300+ class is the answer for soneone who says he can't afford a dovetail jig...


Hit up the Neander forum, lots of posts that will get you started in the right direction there.

While I'll agree with the first, not necessarily the second. If you want to be advised to spend $200 on saws and chisels and another $200 on videos and little lay out doohickeys, then by all means.

I'd say find a nice orthographic drawing of a dovetail joint. Layout should be fairly obvious looking at such a drawing. Get an xacto or even utility knife for layout and make a little angle rule out of scrap wood. You can even use a pencil for layout, but your joint may be a bit more rustic. Get a $20 pull saw from HD or Lowes (or your local hardware store). Cheap chisel like a modern Stanley or Marples, in a pinch you can sharpen it with a belt sander.

You should be able to get started for $40 or less, then if you like cutting dovetails, feel free to look at more expensive saws and such. I own more than my share of pricey gadgets, but I'll be the first to admit that we tend to over-emphasize the role of fancy tools in woodworking. They usually make a job quicker - less time spent sharpening a hard chisel than a soft one for example - and the often make a job easier - a nice comfortable saw handle for example - but they are not an absolute requirement to do good work.

[Bob Smalser]

A utility knife, a small bevel gage and square, a narrow butt chisel and a fine saw are all you need to hand cut half-blind dovetails.

But if you don't mind through-dovetails, you can cut them entirely by machine on the table and band saws as I show below. Either way, the hardest part is the layout, and I detail that for you in the post:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13905

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73536964.jpg

[John Thompson]

With all due respect to those that have expensive DT saws... I will defend a comment I made here about the saw I use to cut DT's. From my original post...

"My current tools are an Exacto knife.. a $19 Irwin 19 T pull saw.. a mallet and a set of 1976 Marples "blue beaters" which are about an inch shorter than when I purchased them in 1976 from sharpening".... me

A poster commented he did not agree with and in-expensive saw. The fact the Irwin I use is cheap in comparison does not mean it is necessarily a low quality tool. I began cutting DT's around 1976 and started with a Buck Bros. back-saw that cost about $2. Not a great saw but DT's can be cut with it if you apply yourself. That saw would now cost around $6 and I definitely do not recommend it. Since I have owned and cut them with a Gent's saw.. a Dozuki.. LN Independence saw and now a Irwin 19 T pull saw.

In this case don't allow the name Irwin or the price to dis-allution your opinion of the saw. The pull blade is made in Japan and my user saw has over 1200 DT's cut and I am considering changing to my back up as I purchased 3 of them for $60. I have also cut a lot of tenons and small detail joints with it. I believe College of the Redwoods uses and teaches with a $12.95 Shark pull saw with a pull stroke. I prefer the Irwin over it as the Irwin has a back rib that stiffens the blade. And.. I sold the LN Independence in favor of the in-expensive Irwin!

I did hone my DT skills twice with 2 day classes with Frank Klaus at Highland WW (then Hardware) in the past but.. what I walked away with from those classes was basically eye-balling layouts and confidence I could cut a DT with any saw using proper technique. I could cut DT's before the classes. Frank Klaus can just do it blind-folded even on a bad day for him and I can't. haha

But.. the proof is in the pudding they say. I just took two pictures of some DT's cut with an Irwin 19 T pull saw. There were 292 on a 6 chest drawer and another 100 on a 5 chest drawer on these two examples alone. You can draw your own conclussion of how well an in-expensive saw can preform. I am just a long time hobbiest so I cannot give an expert opinion... of course. :)

[Bob Smalser]

I have some experience with hand saws, and agree the small, disposable-blade pull saws (below) will work just as well for dovetails as the trendy, expensive prestige-brand saws. It's even easier to use than most.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/47638584.jpg

[Don Dorn]

I have some experience with hand saws, and agree the small, disposable-blade pull saws (below) will work just as well for dovetails as the trendy, expensive prestige-brand saws. It's even easier to use than most.



I've been doing drawers by hand ever since I watched "Dovetail a drawer" by Klausz a few years ago. I agree and disagree with your statement. I used a Dozuki style saw for quite some time and it did work well. However, once I tried a Western style saw, I've never looked back. I like pushing the sawdust out in front so you can keep a good eye on the marking gauge line. I have a Veritas dovetail saw (about $69) and it's heads and tails above the pull saw.

I must admit however, that I love using a gents western saw (Crown) which was about $18 - I sharpened it via Franks method and changed it to a rip config. If I'm not careful, it will fly right past the marking gauge line.

Using a saw that cuts fast, thin and straight makes a whole new game out of it as it pertains to accuracy in my opinion. Using and learning to sharpen a 1/4" and 1/2" good bevel chisel also improves the game tremendously.

[Mike Null]

I have a gents saw, a Dozuki and another Japanese saw. The Dozuki is my favorite.

I had a Leigh 24" jig and luckily was able to sell it for just about what I paid for it. Set up time was just too much for one-offs.

[Chris Parks]

Does anyone remember when they first learned or looked at learning how to do DT's? For a lot of people it is a concept thing and getting your head around it is difficult. The fact that it is difficult is reinforced by the need to keep track of the waste side, how many of us have cut to the wrong side, easy to do if your mind is not on the job. I am of the Frank K school of DT's, lay out one side and make the other match, quick and simple. Get some timber and put aside a day and start practising, you are on your own and no one is there to criticise. The first ones are a disaster and it gets better from there on in. All you need is

8 hours
scrap timber
a SHARP saw
1 pencil or knife
a marking gauge (not mandatory)

Apprentices became good over five years and much practise, the modern woodworker seems loath to practise and learn, he wants it instantly. If the apprentice got it wrong he got a kick up the bum, you only have your desire to succeed to drive you, your choice. Just remember, if you succeed in learning you can teach someone else and for me there is no greater satisfaction. I urge new woodworkers to practise the craft and yes I have plenty of power tools and no one is taking them anywhere.

[Peter Quinn]

I took Mario Rodriguez's two day dovetail class here in CT at a local school a few years back, and its a great class if you have the resources. He is a fine teacher with a great mastery of hand tools and I learned a lot. The most important thing I learned was how to sharpen and set a saw. We took an $11 basic gents saw, removed nearly half its teeth, sharpened it, set it up for the rip cuts required when making dovetails, works great. He cut the same dovetails with a $300 hand made saw, came out no better. So I'd back up Sarge's assertion that an expensive hand saw is not a necessity.

I have the Klaus video, he is a great craftsman, the video is IMHO crap and best avoided. It was little more to me than a source of confusion when I got started. The best real resource I have experienced was a cheap little paper back from an English master named Ian Kirby that is still available on amazon, something like "Cutting Hand made Dovetails". I think I paid $7.95? Great book with decent pictures and illustrations. Very affordable.

Frankly, I'd sooner buy drawers from a good outsource than make them in my own shop with a jig. You can buy very good factory made dovetail drawers reasonably priced from a company like Eagle that are as good as any you can make with a jig. Others will obviously disagree, but for me I wont spend my precious time working hard to achieve that factory made look with my own hands.

[Don Dorn]

I believe Frank K once said - "get yourself 4 8 foot boards and start cutting dovetails. By the time you have it down, you'll have a nice little box for your shoe polish".

I too use the Klausz method because it's fast since there is no layout. You only need a mallet, a couple of chisels, a saw, sharp pencil and marking gauge. I admit that I'd like to master the Cosman method too but struggle with that a little more, probably because I'm so used to pins first. I started by using some poplar and cutting a single of 2 pins and 1 tail. When I had that down, I went to two and so on. If memory serves, I practiced at least one a day for 30 days and felt fairly confident at the end. It's amazing how profiecient you get over time - no paring anymore, it's got to fit right off the saw or I'm not happy.

I guarantee that if I can do it, so can anyone else that wishes to.

[Charles Bender]

Does any of you do hand cut dovetails instead of using a jig.I can't afford a jig right now and would like to try and do them by hand.


I've cut tens of thousands of dovetails all by hand. If you can wait about 6 months, and you're willing to travel a little (to the Woodworking Show in Baltimore in early January), I'm more than willing to give you a lesson. There are tons of videos out there (including mine) that will get you started if you're not patient enough to wait until January.

Had you made it to Frank Klausz's last weekend for the Lie-Nielsen hand tool event, I'd have been happy to show you there. Come to think of it, there just may be something in the area sooner. I'll let you know if it pans out. If it does, the offer of a free lesson still stands.

[John Thompson]

Excellent reccomendation of the $7 Ian Kirby book Peter. I have spent 4 days in seminar with Frank Klaus.. the last two because I didn't catch all in the first two. Back then Frank didn't slow down for anybody.. he would talk while looking at the class and cutting DT's at the same time only occasionally glancing at what he was doing. I haven't seen his video but I can imagine what you say about it unless he slowed things down by the time he made it? haha...

But.. Ian Kirby started a school in the mid-80's in Cumming, Ga. which is about 15 minutes from my door. That's where I learned to cut secret miter DT's. I learned a lot about eye-balling from Klaus but I prefer Kirby's method over Klaus's. Tails first.. tails always first at my shop with few exceptions.

Regards...

[Jay Allen]

Frankly, I'd sooner buy drawers from a good outsource than make them in my own shop with a jig. You can buy very good factory made dovetail drawers reasonably priced from a company like Eagle that are as good as any you can make with a jig. Others will obviously disagree, but for me I wont spend my precious time working hard to achieve that factory made look with my own hands.

That only works with "applied front" boxes.....completely worthless for matching half blinds with the same wood as the rest of the project.

[Chris Parks]

I recently saw a video on the net somewhere in which FK actually took the time to explain how he visually spaced the initial cuts. It makes sense when you see it and is so quick.

[Peter Quinn]

Excellent reccomendation of the $7 Ian Kirby book Peter. I have spent 4 days in seminar with Frank Klaus.. the last two because I didn't catch all in the first two. Back then Frank didn't slow down for anybody.. he would talk while looking at the class and cutting DT's at the same time only occasionally glancing at what he was doing. I haven't seen his video but I can imagine what you say about it unless he slowed things down by the time he made it? haha...

But.. Ian Kirby started a school in the mid-80's in Cumming, Ga. which is about 15 minutes from my door. That's where I learned to cut secret miter DT's. I learned a lot about eye-balling from Klaus but I prefer Kirby's method over Klaus's. Tails first.. tails always first at my shop with few exceptions.

Regards...


Sarge, I imagine an experienced dovetailer can learn a great deal from Frank Klaus, but as a novice I found the old video confusing and counter productive. Mine actually got worse after watching the video! Man, he is quick and beautiful to watch though!

Jay, I agree with your assessment, bought drawers are for applied fronts only, but in my mind that only reinforces my thinking. Mostly my drawer fronts match the exterior of the piece, the rest of the drawer is typically QS maple, maybe poplar, and they are always half blind but done by hand. I don't care that the sides and back of a drawer match the face, and I actually prefer the contrast when they don't, but I do not like the cookie cutter look of the machine made dovetails much. Not my thing. My point was that if I'm willing to tolerate machine made dovetails in the work I'm doing, I'm also willing to use applied drawer fronts and willing to let someone else make them.

[Darnell Hagen]

It seems cutting DT's is as personal as your choice of underwear. I suggest you watch every video you can find, read every how to you can, and develop your own method. My style (http://thewayiwood.blogspot.com/2010/03/five-minute-bench-9-tails.html) is cobbled together from Kirbys book, Klaus' video, Underhills WIA video, Cosmans video, Hultmans video, ect., and is constantly evolving. Some parts from each work for me, others don't.

The only hard rule is it takes practise. Gary Rogowski promotes the five minute dovetail, a daily practise in scrap. I agree practice is important, but I dislike throwing away effort. I practise by making shop accessories.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/DarnellHagen/P1530159.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/DarnellHagen/P1530163.jpg