Raised panel doors

[Philip Johnson]

I need to make some raised panel cabinet doors from oak, the doors will be be approx 12 inches wide and 36 high. Can I use a single 10 inch wide board for the panel or would that be more likely to warp. Would I be better off glueing up a couple smaller boards.

thanks
Phil

[Lee Schierer]

Yes, you can do it either way. If the wide board is stable (not currently warped or twisted) it can be used in one piece. If you need to plane it try to remove exactly the same amount from each side and sticker to allow air flow on all sides and weight the board down after planing to let it adjust to the new thickness.

[Darnell Hagen]

It would be a little more prone to warping, but the frames should control that.

Otherwise, I think single board panels are the best looking ones. Just be sure to keep your cathedral pointing up.

[Jeff Monson]

Lee is correct, you can go either way. I like the look of 1 panel, especially with oak. If your doors are 12" wide with 2 1/4" rails you wont be needing a 10" panel though, unless you are planning some really skinny rails?

[Joe Chritz]

Single is fine.

A 12" door will have a panel between 8 1/4 and 8 3/4 inches wide.

Joe

[Michael MacDonald]

Yes, you can do it either way. If the wide board is stable (not currently warped or twisted) it can be used in one piece. If you need to plane it try to remove exactly the same amount from each side and sticker to allow air flow on all sides and weight the board down after planing to let it adjust to the new thickness.

Lee -- what is meant by "weight the board down"? is the idea to clamp the board to the stickers (and perhaps, the underlying table) on each corner to keep it straight? isn't consistent airflow sufficient?

I hadn't heard this before...

[Michael MacDonald]

...Just be sure to keep your cathedral pointing up.

I learn something everytime I visit... is that really a common standard? grain cathedral should point up? hmmm. I will have to remember that.

[Philip Johnson]

Thanks for the replies. Anyone got a good source for arched door patterns. That will be the next issue to find.

Phil

[Lee Schierer]

Lee -- what is meant by "weight the board down"? is the idea to clamp the board to the stickers (and perhaps, the underlying table) on each corner to keep it straight? isn't consistent airflow sufficient?

I hadn't heard this before...

The idea is to hold the board flat after milling in a way that air can get to all sides. You can hold it flat with weight, clamps or both. This will let the wood adjust as evenly as possible. Planing all the material from on side will leave one side with the original wood exposed and the other with interior wood exposed. If the moisture level wasn't consistent all the way through the wood may move as it stabilizes.

[Frank Drew]

Otherwise, I think single board panels are the best looking ones. Just be sure to keep your cathedral pointing up.

I'm with Darnell here -- I like straight-grained stuff for the framing members and well-centered flat-sawn (crown cut, or "cathedral", if it has that typical u-shape graining) for a single board panel.

[Philip Johnson]

Ok I do need to make an arched top to match the rest of the cabinets in the house. So I need some templates and some way to hold them.

I seen woodhaven has a set of templates and a panel master door kit. But for a shaper they say I need the HD panel master kit which is twice the price. Any other suggestions for some templates and some way of holding them.

thanks
Phil

[Chip Lindley]

It's hard to justify buying a cathedral pattern jig for just one cabinet door. But there is no substitute for an accurate pattern and holding jig either! For just one door panel and top rail, I would mimmick the "store-bought" jig with an MDF clamping jig and pattern. Check out Weaver-Sales for their manual crown door jig. I have used the same, bought new over 25 years ago. It's good stuff!

http://www.weaver-sales.com/jigs-patterns-crown-manual.htm

More time would be spent building your jigs and sanding the pattern profiles to a perfect match than will be spent building your one door. But well worth the effort. You want the door to match the rest of your kitchen perfectly, not almost.

Should you feel that too much is involved for just one crown panel door, perhaps someone could run some pieces through their shaper for you at a reasonable cost. Of course, they would need to have the same cope/sticking profile, and cathedral profile that your kitchen uses.

[Philip Johnson]

I do need 8 doors now and will need some more in the future for the laundry room. I have the shaper and cutters already so really just need the pattern and type of hold down or sled which I could use for other things. Weaver looks nice but a bit more then I would like to spend, its not the patterns but the 400 a piece for the 2 jigs. I may have to try and make something can't be too hard, just seems i am better at buying jigs then making them.

Phil

[Darnell Hagen]

is that really a common standard?


No, common standard is to glue up narrow strips with no regard to grain pattern whatsoever. Conscientious cabinet makers choose for grain carefully.

Cathedals up; uplifting, healthy, lively:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/DarnellHagen/Cathedral.jpg


Cathedrals down; saggy, runny, unhealthy:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/DarnellHagen/Cathedral-Copy.jpg

Be forewarned, once you start choosing for grain you will be bothered by pieces that don't.

Those are single board panels 18" wide. There is some warping, but it is controlled by the frames.

[lawrence dosson]

Phil
MLCS has cathedral door templates 75 bucks ..
or the full size the patterns to make your own for 15 ..
if you make your own you can add to them to fit your ,door size, jigs, ETC

[Frank Drew]

Thank you Darnell; one picture worth thousand words.

As for the term " cathedral", Darnell is referring to the grain pattern of the panel, not an arched curve of the top rail. I call it crown cut and I'm suppose there are other terms for it.

Stock selection being paramount is the idea, whatever you call it.

[Karl Brogger]

No, common standard is to glue up narrow strips with no regard to grain pattern whatsoever. Conscientious cabinet makers choose for grain carefully.

I don't agree with this. If someone is mindlessly glueing stuff together they aren't cabinetmakers, they're idiots. Then again standards have sank so low, I might be totally wrong.


If you need a 12" wide door, your panel would be 8-1/8" wide using a 2-1/4 stile + rail, with a 7/16" groove. You'd probably be just fine going that wide with the panel. I try not too do anything over 6" though. I'd probably take the board and rip it in half, then glue it back together.

[Frank Drew]

I try not too do anything over 6" though. I'd probably take the board and rip it in half, then glue it back together.

A glued-up board will behave as a single board, so I'm not sure what you gain by ripping then gluing. And 6" maximum width for a single board in a panel? Karl, really, you must be bolder :D!

[Karl Brogger]

A glued-up board will behave as a single board, so I'm not sure what you gain by ripping then gluing. And 6" maximum width for a single board in a panel? Karl, really, you must be bolder :D!

No it won't. You're releasing the tension when you cut it. You have two smaller boards that can still cup, but less so than an individual. Properly glued up panel should have the smiles and frowns when looking at the endgrain. It can be tough to do though, being any of the wood that is left is all pretty young and the color/grain is tough to match up from one side to the other. Not a big deal, you just potentially end up wasting alot more, especially if you need to make a small quantity of doors. With a larger number of doors, the drop alot of times can be burned up with the smaller height doors.

I try to avoid any of the individual parts being glued up for a panel being more than 6".

As far as how big is too big for a panel, I think 30" is pushing it for a solid panel. The swelling/shrinkage starts getting obscene after a while.

What is "bolder"?

[Andy Sowers]

You mentioned you preferred to buy your templates over making your own... but there was a FWW article by Bill Ewing in the Sept/Oct 1999 issue which describes in detail how to make your own jigs to make whatever templates you want. Its basically a large circle jig for your router. You can download the article on FWW's site by searching for "arched top cabinet doors."

I looked at buying the templates at first, but then realized I could make the jig and templates essentially for "free" out of scrap that I already had on hand.

HTH
Andy

[Joe Chritz]

As far as how big is too big for a panel, I think 30" is pushing it for a solid panel. The swelling/shrinkage starts getting obscene after a while.



Most cabinet door manufacturers that I have seen generally use 24" as the widest door they will guarantee. That leaves around a 20" panel. My personal limit is the doors for a single door 24" cabinet or about 22" wide total depending on scribe.

Joe

[Chip Lindley]

You can, of course, keep more thickness by ripping a wide board in half, jointing faces and edges, then regluing it. Much less thickness lost than would be with a cupped board twice as wide. And the glue joint is all but invisible if care is taken in regluing the two halves.

[Karl Brogger]

Most cabinet door manufacturers that I have seen generally use 24" as the widest door they will guarantee. That leaves around a 20" panel. My personal limit is the doors for a single door 24" cabinet or about 22" wide total depending on scribe.

Joe

That kinda the same rules I go by for doors, but when you get a 12' long panneled back for an island or penninsula it tough to know how many times you should break it up with a mid-stile.

[Larry Edgerton]

No it won't. You're releasing the tension when you cut it. You have two smaller boards that can still cup, but less so than an individual. Properly glued up panel should have the smiles and frowns when looking at the endgrain. It can be tough to do though, being any of the wood that is left is all pretty young and the color/grain is tough to match up from one side to the other. Not a big deal, you just potentially end up wasting alot more, especially if you need to make a small quantity of doors. With a larger number of doors, the drop alot of times can be burned up with the smaller height doors.

I try to avoid any of the individual parts being glued up for a panel being more than 6".

As far as how big is too big for a panel, I think 30" is pushing it for a solid panel. The swelling/shrinkage starts getting obscene after a while.

What is "bolder"?

I'd agree with this.

There are occasions where I need a panel to be wider than I would like. When this is necessary I have a trough that I made for the purpose that I fill with West System. I stand the panel up in the trough so that the epoxy can wick up into the end grain of the panel for about ten minutes, flip it over and do the same to the other end, wiping off the excess. I have had some very wide panels survive with no problems using this method as it minimizes wood movement.

Not something you can do on a production job really, but I do not do production work generally.

[Frank Drew]

Properly glued up panel should have the smiles and frowns when looking at the endgrain.

I try to avoid any of the individual parts being glued up for a panel being more than 6".


Karl,

Do you extend this thinking to all wide applications, such as table tops? If you had, say, several wide mahogany boards that would look wonderful in a dining table, would you rip them down to 6" or so, flipping every other one at assembly to get the alternating smiles and frowns?

In almost twenty five years making custom furniture professionally, I had pretty good results leaving wide boards wide when I had them and when they were suitable for the project. Of course, I bought nice stuff when I found it (and could afford it), then stored it flat and dry, against whatever future project might come up. By the time I got around to using it, very often most of the orneriness had tempered out, but I still approached final dimensions gradually, as insurance.

[Karl Brogger]

Karl,

Do you extend this thinking to all wide applications, such as table tops? If you had, say, several wide mahogany boards that would look wonderful in a dining table, would you rip them down to 6" or so, flipping every other one at assembly to get the alternating smiles and frowns?

In almost twenty five years making custom furniture professionally, I had pretty good results leaving wide boards wide when I had them and when they were suitable for the project. Of course, I bought nice stuff when I found it (and could afford it), then stored it flat and dry, against whatever future project might come up. By the time I got around to using it, very often most of the orneriness had tempered out, but I still approached final dimensions gradually, as insurance.


I'd say yes. For me if I'm doing a bigger top out of solid wood I'll use a thicker material, (5/4 or 6/4), whether its more stable or not...... I don't have much experience with anything where the top doesn't attach to some sort of frame, or a skirt to control some of the twisting issues. I use the clips pretty frequently where you route a small groove into the inside edge of the box or skirt and then screw the clips to the underside of the top so it can move. All wood tops should be finished entirely on the bottom edge as well to seal them up, and help control some of the moisture absorption.

My concern with making doors is the where the panel twists up a bit and the door comes out of adjustment, i.e. the top of the door hitting and the bottom does not. Not that critical on overlay applications, but on inset where the support of the doors against the box on the back side is limited, and it has a big impact visually, it can create problems.

The issue with really big panels with rails+stiles is the panel shrinking down and exposing wood that hasn't been finished, or if not sealed up well, and assembled when its really dry it expanding to the point it starts blowing the copes apart. I haven't actually had that happen, I space ball everything, and all of the joints are pocket screwed together on the backside for paneled ends. I've seen it happen though.

The reality for me is that when my customers are given the choice of wrapping a engineered piece of material in solid, or building a top from solid wood, most aren't willing to cough up the extra money for a solid top. Its unfortunate as I'd like to do a lot more out of solid, than using so many veneers. There are some advantages though. This desk top that I made would be much less appealing in my opinion if the grain was forced to go all in one direction. There are ways around it, but it mostly ends in making your own veneer anyway.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs069.snc3/13662_1206698498841_1570037517_30538976_4531021_n. jpg



I'm prone to building butcher blocks or using thin rips and alternating light/dark on my own projects for tops. Nice way to burn stuff up that's laying around the shop:D

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs069.snc3/13662_1206695018754_1570037517_30538962_4431054_n. jpg

[Frank Drew]

Legitimate concern about panels causing doors to go in wind; doesn't take much for them to look poorly fitted or hung.

Nice work in the photos, Karl.

[Karl Brogger]

Nice work in the photos, Karl.

The alder top looked good for about two years. The center section shrunk and has pulled away in one corner, even with the border being liberally glued and pocket screwed every few inches. Should have either made it float, (which I think is hideously ugly), or contact cemented the panel to a piece of particle board then grind it down untill the actual wood part was a 1/4" thick or less, then wrapped it with the border.

I did it for myself, and knew it was a poor way to do it. At least the center section didn't expand and blow out a mitre. I would've tossed it in the dumpster by now.