Still Can't Get Decent Chip Collection with the Laguna Jointer/Planer

[Alan Lightstone]

Getting more frustrated by this. I just completed making an adapter to convert the intake of my Laguna 12" Jointer/Planer to 6" instead of 4" for better dust collection.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4122/4736882461_bd45e6b8eb.jpg

My problem has been the pile of shavings that gets deposited on the planer bed when jointing.



My DC is a 2HP HF with a Thien separator with 6" inlet and outlet, to a Wynn Environmental cannister.

I was hoping that by enlarging the intake on the machine to 6" I would increase the CFM enough to get sufficient chip removal. Unfortunately, the machine still drops chips onto the planer bed.

Here's a picture of what is deposited after face jointing one pass with a 2x4.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4736880657_c9680f34a2.jpg

What you can't see, and isn't helping matters is the 6" wye and the approximately 10' of flexible 6" tubing from the Thien to the jointer.

My questions are:

1.) Will eliminating the flexible tubing increase flow enough to eliminate the poor chip collection? (Yes, I'll try this, but just wondering if anyone thinks this is the culprit.)

2.) Will exchanging the HF 2HP motor (with a 11.75" impeller) for a Penn State 3.5HP motor with 14" impeller (rated at 2000CFM instead of the 1550 for the HF, perhaps more since I increased the inlet to 6") fix the problem.

3.) When I finally get the motor issue settled out and change to 6" metal pipe, will that fix the problem?

4.) The Penn State motor has a 8" inlet. Should I keep the piping 8" to the unit, or will 6" suffice? Or is 8" pipe to the adapter on the jointer, then decreasing it to 6" OK?

Basically, I'm really dissappointed that increasing to 6" on the jointer didn't fix the problem.

Guys, what do you think??

[Peter Aeschliman]

my knee-jerk reaction is that it's a design problem with your machine.

I had a 1HP dust collector on my jointer and planer with flex hose for along time. it took care of all of the chips.

I think it's more about the trajectory that the chips come off the cutterhead than it is about the CFM (within reason of course). The hood should use that trajectory to its advantage to channel the chips into your ducting. The speed at which the chips come off the cutterhead is such that it would take a really really big DC make up for a poor hood design on the machine itself.

I would only spend the money to trade up to a bigger DC if you need it for other purposes. Since the jointer only spews out big chips (much less fine dust), I think you need to consider how big of a problem this really is.

I would be really disappointed too, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, it may not be worth all the effort to redesign the flawed DC design on the machine compared to just getting out the shop vac when you're finished with your jointing operations.

Just my $.02.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Peter's got it.

Try modifying the plate near the blade to better catch the chips as they fly off of the blades.
.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Based on the assumption that the DC is connected directly to the jointer/planer via the 10' of hose you mention, I'm not sure that adding another 500 CFM will help that much.

I see you have a rectanguler chute transitioning to a 6" round port. What is the size of the rectangular opening in square inches? The 6" port has 28 square inch opening. If the rectangular portion is much smaller, then you are losing CFMs right at the planer. I would first try adding a sacrificial opening the in the top or bottom to keep the CFMs up. Or if possible modify the rectangular portion to get closer to the 28 square inches.

The flex tubing will also be an issue. Based on the upper photo, I would try to straighten out the hose as much as possible. The way it wraps around, it appears that you have the equavalent of 3-4 90 degree bends there.

It would probably help to taper the sides of the hood towards the port as well.

[Alan Lightstone]

The rectangular opening is 13.5" x 2.25", or an area of 30.4 sq in.

The 6" duct has an area of 28.3 sq in.

So, it's an optical illusion. The rectangular opening is sufficient for the 6" duct.

I didn't taper the sides of the port towards the duct, as I was concerned about structural integrity. I did fiberglass the exterior, so it is strong enough now, but I was worried about the MDF by itself.

I'm going to try eliminating the wye and using shorter flexible hose, but I don't think that will fix the problem. I think it is a design issue also. Just trying to get around that.

[John Lanciani]

Hi Alan,

Can you post a pic with the tables raised but with the dust chute as it is for jointer operation? I had a similar problem with my Rojek that I was able to solve with a piece of weatherstripping foam. If your Laguna is the Platinum or whatever they call the machines that they import from China they are almost exact copies of the Rojek J/P and I may be able to help.

John L.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Just checking on the opening area. Obviously there's plenty.

How about the obvious part of straightening out the flex hose some?

Is the wye in the picture? I can't make it out.

[Alan Lightstone]

Just checking on the opening area. Obviously there's plenty.

How about the obvious part of straightening out the flex hose some?

Is the wye in the picture? I can't make it out.

I took out the wye and decreased the flex hose to 5', with subtle curves. No difference. :(

[Alan Lightstone]

Hi Alan,

Can you post a pic with the tables raised but with the dust chute as it is for jointer operation? I had a similar problem with my Rojek that I was able to solve with a piece of weatherstripping foam. If your Laguna is the Platinum or whatever they call the machines that they import from China they are almost exact copies of the Rojek J/P and I may be able to help.

John L.


Interesting. Promising. Here it is. Let me know if you need any other views:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4739857587_a0f3f4ca49_b.jpg

[John Lanciani]

Looks very similar, on mine I had to put a piece of foam tape on the small fixed portion of the dust chute - the white piece of tin between the cutter head and the smooth roller in the photo - so that when the infeed table is lowered it compresses the foam and makes a seal. You can see some chips impacted in the foam in the two pictures. The third photo is another shot of the adaptor I made up to fit a 6" flex duct to the machine, I suspect that it may work better than yours by having less turbulence and by allowing gravity to help.

My J/P is a 16" model, and I only get a small dusting of chips on the planer bed if I use the extreme ends of the cutter. DC is a 3hp Oneida, but the collection was nearly as good with a 2hp Woodsucker cyclone before it.

[Alan Lightstone]

Looks very similar, on mine I had to put a piece of foam tape on the small fixed portion of the dust chute - the white piece of tin between the cutter head and the smooth roller in the photo - so that when the infeed table is lowered it compresses the foam and makes a seal. You can see some chips impacted in the foam in the two pictures. The third photo is another shot of the adaptor I made up to fit a 6" flex duct to the machine, I suspect that it may work better than yours by having less turbulence and by allowing gravity to help.

My J/P is a 16" model, and I only get a small dusting of chips on the planer bed if I use the extreme ends of the cutter. DC is a 3hp Oneida, but the collection was nearly as good with a 2hp Woodsucker cyclone before it.
Interesting. That area does get a fair bit of wood shavings compressed and stuck in it. I'll have to give this a try.

Not convinced that there is a huge amount of turbulence in my adapter. Iwould think the airflow would be pretty laminar, but it would have been better if it tapered closer to the outlet. Your design is slicker. I couldn't find your initial post before I built it (did steal the idea from you, though. I've since found it.)

I've got a pressure meter I've got to try using before and after some of this stuff. The results might be very interesting.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Alan, can you post some pictures of your configuration? How long is your total run, how many bends, etc? I wonder if the issue isn't too much resistance for this unit to handle? Have you used this collector on your Tablesaw with similar ducting and experienced collection issues?

[Alan Lightstone]

The tested configuration was HF DC with 6" inlet to 6" Trash Can Thien collector to 5' of 6" Flex hose to 6" wye to 5' of 6" Flex Hose to new 6" collection box on jointer/planer. Assume 2-3 90 degree turns inside the flex hose.

Imagine this being connected to the new adapter box on the jointer:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/4559476708_5cf9c1a886_b.jpg

I have a contractors table saw that works OK with an additional 20' of 6" flex hose and an adapter down to 4". A band saw wyed off that 20' run to two 4" flexible hoses works very well with DC. Blast gate is just off initial 6" wye, so the jointer/planer doesn't see the 20' run. Additional blast gate before the tablesaw.

To do the above test, I removed the wye, so it's just the configuration in the first paragraph.

Also, it's chip collection that seems to be the issue with the jointer/planer, not dust collection. I don't see fine dust around or settling when I use it, just the pile of chips on the planer table while jointing.

As can be seen in the above picture, I have not modified the outlet of the HF DC, so the outlet is still a short run of 5" flex hose to the bag/cartridge unit. Only the inlet has been enlarged to 6". The outlet modification - well, not sure how that can be done.

[Mike Wilkins]

I have a similar made and sold by another company, and I have also had some concerns with dust collection, especially with the planing function in use. My solution: just live with it. Using the the 4" collection port that came with the machine, you can only expect to get about 90% of the chips that get ejected, usually on the sides/edges of the dust hood. Make sure the J/P machine is the closest one to the dust collector to maximize suction, close off any runs that are not in use, and make sure to properly seal any and all connections. This chip collection quirk is just the nature of this particular beast.

[Greg Portland]

Flex hose can be up to 9x worse than rigid PVC pipe. 90° turns are also very bad (even if they are gradual). Although the total length of your run is only 10' it's really acting like ~100' of straight pipe (too big for the small collector).

As a temporary measure, try running the 5' hose directly between the planer and the DC (no bends). See if that solves the problem. If so, re design your duct work or invest in a large DC.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Using the Pence calculator, I show your Static Pressure loss at 11.07. Not sure what the Fan Curve is for the HF unit. I know several folks have used this design. I've been curious to hear how it is working out for you. You might go to the Thien Seperator forum and see if anyone there has had luck running 6" rigid or you just might try that. Good luck and please keep us posted.

[Alan Lightstone]

Using the Pence calculator, I show your Static Pressure loss at 11.07. Not sure what the Fan Curve is for the HF unit. I know several folks have used this design. I've been curious to hear how it is working out for you. You might go to the Thien Seperator forum and see if anyone there has had luck running 6" rigid or you just might try that. Good luck and please keep us posted.

Actually, I get 8.40 inches using Pentz calculator. That's still huge, but not as jaw dropping as 11.07". How does anyone get a DC to work with that kind of loss? Everyone would need a 5HP unit. That just doesn't jibe with people's real world experiences with far lesser units.

My future plans are for permanent 6 or 7" rigid duct, but I can't install that until I sort out which DC motor I need, and install that first. It's a chicken and egg thing.

Pentz's calculator states that my optimum duct diameter is 7". On a practical basis, I'll likely have to keep it at 6", though I might run 7" mains, reducing them to 6" at whichever machines I can enlarge the outlets to.

[John Lanciani]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kmtKRcWQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000OUV2D0/sr=8-2/qid=1277808150/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1277808150&sr=8-2)



Hi Alan,

You might want to invest in one of these, they're $85 from Amazon. The range is .1 to 20" of water, positive or negative pressure. It's a great way to figure out what's going on as you design and build your system, and it will give you real numbers instead of using someones SP calculator that is not particularly accurate for a full system :rolleyes:.

I use mine to monitor my filter now that my system is done so it has long term value. I'll let you borrow mine if you're close by.

[Alan Lightstone]

Actually, I have one, John. I just keep forgetting to hook it up when I'm making changes.

How do you use it effectively? Do you make a small hole in the flex tubing and measure the pressure before the machine and check another pressure more proximal in the tubing, or do you just tape the probe in place in the airstream?

[John Lanciani]

What I did was to put a pitot tube that I made up myself from a piece of brake line in my main duct about 2' in front of the cyclone inlet. By measuring from here I can get relative readings that show the effect of changes made up-stream. By taking an initial measurement with just a short piece of duct I was able to see how much SP was added as I built out the system. I could then use those numbers to get airflow readings using Oneida's fan curves.

[Alan Lightstone]

Not sure what my readings mean, or are accurate, but here's what I measured. This is with the Digital Manometer, using it's included tube, placed just before the HF DC inlet.

With just the inlet connected, static pressure was -1.8 in H2O.
With the inlet and the 6" Thien separator connected, the SP was -3.0 in H2O.

With the system hooked up to the Thien, then with about 5' of 6" flex tubing to the converter box on the Laguna, the SP was -3.2 in H2O.

So if I can believe the measurements, the Thien, tubing, and converter box only add 1.4 inches of static pressure. Or as far as fan curves go, I should be getting stellar air flow through the system.

It all seems too low. Even with the cannister filter, shouldn't I be getting higher readings?