What am I doing wrong??

[Josh Bowman]

I got some mystery wood from a frend of mine. He said it had been down for a year or so. I preped it and put it on my oneway chuck/screw per Mike Mahoney's and The Woodcraft classes instructions. As I worked from the bottom of the bowl to the top the Sorby 1/2" bowl gouge would jack hammer me badly. I finally had to use a spindle roughing gouge just to get the thing round. The wood seems very wet at that end and dry on the other. I really don't know what kind of E TN wood it is, but it's not turning like the popular I did at Woodcraft. Could it be due to the time it's been down? Or is it the inconsistant wetness of the wood? The first picture shows the bowl, not the dark area's they are very wet and the other areas are kind of resinish. The last pictures show the bark and pile I cut up. When I reversed the blank and chucked it up, the inside acted the same. The inside bottom would act fairly ok, but the wet lip would jack hammer me. It finally came off the chuck.....and here I am. :confused:
Thanks again.

[Tim Rinehart]

Hey Josh,

It may help if you can take a pic showing about how you had the tool to the wood when you were getting jack-hammered?

Were you riding on some high spots that kept moving the tool up and down? If so, that may just be pushing the tool too hard into the wood and not giving a good sharp edge a chance to slowly make the chips.

Assuming you're trying to ride the bevel...remember that you don't ride the entire bevel, just the relatively small part just behind the cutting tip.

Frustrating, I know. I had started on poplar and it was pretty forgiving. When I tried making a bowl from a piece of walnut, I was thinking " I hate walnut ". I kept getting catches and so on. I later figured out it was just technique...and you never stop learning.

Seriously...see if you can get someone to take a pic of exactly how you're holding the tool to the wood, and I'll bet you'll get a ton of good advice you can do something about with that piece.

[Steve Mawson]

Looks like you might have some hard maple that you are working with. Even though spalted a little this will be much harder than poplar. Doubt that a years worth of drying is near long enough in log form which might be why it is still wet. Agree with a picture of how you are trying to use the bowl gouge. Sure you will get lots of other comments. Just have to keep at it till you figure it out. Sounds like you have had a class so that is a good start.

[James Combs]

Another issue maybe the difference in wetness. You might toss the "rough" turned piece into a brown bag for a week or two and see if the wetness evens out to be more consistent throughout the wood. Wet wood tends to cut easier and then you hit a dry spot and kabamm you get hammered. Just a thought.

[John Beaver]

Always go back to the basics. Sharp tool, ride the bevel, take light cuts, let the tool do the work - don't force it. Did I mention sharp tool...

I'm not usually a fan of them, but sometimes a carbide tool (easy tools or the like) will help when roughing difficult wood.

Most importantly.
Never use a roughing gouge on face grain. You can cause major damage to yourself. When the end grain hits the roughing gouge it can literally shatter the tool.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Josh - as mentioned - it is hard to give you advice without watching you while turning the bowl. I will tell you that you picked a really hard form to turn! It is hard to keep a good cut going when the walls of the bowl are so steep. Also, looking at the bottom inside of the bowl - looks like you were taking some fairly heavy cuts....

So, as already suggested - use sharp tools, lightly rub the bevel and take light cuts. Don't force anything but you be the one in control of the cut!

Let us know what you find corrects the problem!

[John Hart]

Hmmm..I get jackhammered all the time....turnings...family...pets. Kinda normal for me. What's the problem?:D

Seriously..I agree about the light cuts and watching your bevel orientation. It seems to me that you have a problem with different wood densities up there around the lip...Plus it looks like you have a pair of small cracks at the 12:00 area in pic #1. All these variations....and heavy pressure on the tool...will cause a buckin' bronco effect. A sharp tool and a light cut may alleviate that.

Sometimes, when I have that problem, I will try to harden the soft stuff and the cracks with an epoxy cocktail or wood hardener in the problem area...giving a more consistent medium to work with.

[Allen Neighbors]

Quote: Tim: Assuming you're trying to ride the bevel...remember that you don't ride the entire bevel, just the relatively small part just behind the cutting tip.

Sometimes it helps to grind away part of the bevel. I do this on all bowl gouges. I try to grind away most of the bevel, leaving about 3/32" behind the cutting edge.
The idea is, that the bevel, shaped by the curvature of the grinder wheel, has become "hollow ground". Then, when you rub the bevel and the cutting edge, you're rubbing an area of bevel that is a distance from the cutting edge, which makes the cut 'feel' rougher, and many times leaves a bruise ring that is a bear to get rid of. Grinding away the heel of the bevel, will leave a shorter bevel, that is closer to the cutting edge. Makes it easier while cutting, and doesn't leave a bruise ring, either.
I don't know... just trying to help a little bit.

[Thom Sturgill]

Wow, in addition to the end-grain, side grain, end grain, side grain thing, you've got solid wood, punky wood variations to contend with and apparently taking a heavy cut to boot.

No wonder you felt like you were being jack-hammered! Light cuts, sharp tools and as soon as its round enough, up the speed.

[Matt Hutchinson]

As I look closely at the second pic, I notice an open grain grain structure. At first I was thinking it could be elm, but the color of the heartwood doesn't really make sense (and the bark doesn't match either). Could this be locust with spalted sapwood? Also a VERY hard wood. If that's the case, you have all the reasons that people have mentioned, but then also the extreme hardness of locust to deal with.

I think everyone else has pretty much covered what may need to be done as far as the actual woodturning/tool selection goes.

Hutch

[Josh Bowman]

Wow, in addition to the end-grain, side grain, end grain, side grain thing, you've got solid wood, punky wood variations to contend with and apparently taking a heavy cut to boot.

No wonder you felt like you were being jack-hammered! Light cuts, sharp tools and as soon as its round enough, up the speed.
You know I'm a little slow.......;)
But I think 8 out of 8 comments are saying my technique is needing refined. I definatley agree! I'm really still very mechanical with my technique. I've been Googling all morning on how to hold my chisel properly. I've done spindle turning for years....no issues, but there are a lot of "moving parts" in bowl turning that's getting me. The gouges bevel against large changing angles in the wood and the grain thing. I guess I'll need to just practice. Do any of you know of any good still pictures of chisel technique? I've watched a lot of videos and it's sometimes hard to see that little piece of the gouges position to the wood. A Woodsmith article has you rub the bevel with the flutes straight up then raise the handle until the edge cuts. Then it has you rotate slightly the flutes in the direction of the cut. At the same time it has you swing the handle to keep the bevel in contact. Is that on the right track?:confused:
Spindle turning is so much easier!!!!:(

[Nathan Hawkes]

I've experienced exactly the phenomenon you're describing. The moisture content, as well as density, both play factors in the vibration. I second Allen Neighbors' comment about the bevel rubbing. I have never seen a high speed camera shot of turning wood that has a moist/dry or hard/soft combination spot, but I suspect that because the two areas cut slightly differently, the bevel must be bouncing on whatever wood surface is not cutting as efficiently as the other. Reducing the bevel surface allows you to be in control of the gouge, not the other way around. Double bevels, or reduced bevels more accurately, have helped my fine control gouge skills more than anything else save sharpening. In David Ellsworth's book, he describes the nonlinear sharpness curve --we expect it to slowly dull and give a gradually decreasing edge. In practice, its pretty sharp, and then bang! its dull and doesn't cut very well. Gouges are cheap compared to the time and frustration spent sanding out torn and bruised grain.

[Lance kanaby]

Hello Josh:

From the limited amount of information that you have provided us I have to make some assumptions which is a dangerous thing for me to do so correct me if I am wrong.

The shape you have chosen is a shape that I a see a lot of beginners choose. Verticle walls are very difficult to make a transition from the wall to the bottom and to keep your bowl gouge riding or having the bevel cut supported. If you loose the bevel you will soon have a catch or at best leave a lot of circular marks. When I first started turning I too liked this shape and found out that I was causing myself a lot of problems too.

You NEVER use a Spindle Roughing Gouge on faceplate turning. As the name says, SPINDLE Roughing only.

I would suggest that you join a local area wood turning club and have an experienced turner mentor you or just maybe watch you to see what is going wrong. These suggestions were meant to help, not critisize.

[Mike Minto]

Another thing to keep in mind - the 'spalting' and 'zone lines' in the wood are no longer wood, really - it is 'mineralized', and very hard on the edge of tools - this could cause some of the uneven-ness and 'hammering' you are experiencing.

[Josh Bowman]

Well, here is were I am now. I've now turned 2 more bowls. 1 was maple and spalted that turned out to have cracks/knots. I thought why not, take light cuts....take light cuts. Well I got the bowl nearly thin enough for the wax stuff.....then I thought 1 one cut......it broke. So I did another, sharp tools.....sharp tools. I made it to the "green" thickness and tried a scraper cut and knocked it out of the chuck. But I'm getting there. Following the bevel and I'm learning on this "crappy" beautiful wood how to work the imperfections. I've also really turned the lathe speed down. It seems 500 is good enough at first and ease it up from there. I'm still trying to find the correct angles as in the turn of the flutes. Thanks for all the help. If I can get my wife or daughter to take some pictures I would love to have my angle/technique looked at.

[Reed Gray]

Work on shallower forms first, wider than they are tall. The inside of a bowl is much more difficult to turn than the outside for a bunch of reasons, the main one being the transition area from the sides to the bottom. The less transition there is, the easier it is to turn. When using a scraper, for roughing work, you have it flat on the tool rest. For dainty finish cuts, you have it at a shear/45 degree angle. If you have it flat on the tool rest and are trying to touch up the rim on the inside of the bowl, there is usually some screeching and howling, and then you get a big catch. The rim of the bowl will flex a lot, and vibrates.

Most gouges are sharpened to about 45 degrees. This is fine for flatter pieces, and great for going down the sides of the bowl. It is not good for making the transition and going across the bottom, and on a bowl like the one you show, it is impossible to use across the bottom as you can not rub the bevel. It is really handy to have a gouge with a bevel in the 60 to 75 degree range which will go through the transition and across the bottom and rub the bevel the whole way.

A scraper does go okay across the bottom of the bowl when held flat. Be careful as you approach the transition area as you can end up with the scraper suddenly cutting on both the bottom and sides of the bowl at the same time = more wood on the tool suddenly = more pressure on the tool = big catch.

When using the gouge, the hand on the back of the handle does all the driving, and the other hand just keeps the gouge on the tool rest, and keeps the gouge from going off the tool rest, or through the center of the inside of the bowl (where it will hit the up moving side of the bowl, swing around very quickly and slam onto the tool rest, causing a big gouge in the wood, some times a broken tool rest and gouge, and some damage to your fingers if you have them under the tool steel. Really ease up the pressure as you get near the very center.

Move with your body, not your arms.

robo hippy

[John Hart]

Well, here is were I am now. I've now turned 2 more bowls. 1 was maple and spalted that turned out to have cracks/knots. I thought why not, take light cuts....take light cuts. Well I got the bowl nearly thin enough for the wax stuff.....then I thought 1 one cut......it broke. So I did another, sharp tools.....sharp tools. I made it to the "green" thickness and tried a scraper cut and knocked it out of the chuck. But I'm getting there..

heh heh...you sound like me.(please don't take offense :))

Lot's of education in those events. These are the good times that you speak of later.;)

[Josh Bowman]

I think I'm on the right beginning track. In addition to taking the advice of SMC to take a class, I contacted the local AAW club, by luck I talked to a very nice guy that was more than happy to have me over to his professional turning shop and watch, show, tell and advise....for 3 hours! I was bushed, but as I left he gave me some more blanks to practice on. I turned one tonight. It's nothing special, but I think it worked. Is the form correct for a beginner? His advise was to keep it open at the top so the bottom would work better. I think I am shape challenged.

[David E Keller]

You are getting there! The shape is nice and open. Nice pile of fun below the lathe there.:)

[John Hart]

I see nothing to indicate that you're "shape challenged" Josh. Yer rockin'. :)

[Tim Rinehart]

Is the form correct for a beginner? His advise was to keep it open at the top so the bottom would work better. I think I am shape challenged.
Excellent to hear that you got some time with someone familiar with turning bowls and from sounds of it, able to leave you with some techiques to work on.
If you think about what he said, take it to the extreme opposite and it will then make sense. If you 'close' the top, so the gouge is making a "C" shape looking down from the center of the handle, you are not able to remove much except for a little sliver at the tip of the gouge, however, you have very good control at that point.
Start opening the gouge, and you can slice more wood, but for most, self included, I start closing as I'm moving toward the center... to decrease likelihood of catch at the bottom by being "too open". It should be a fluid transition that has you rolling the gouge a little as you're working in to center.

One other thing...it can be frustrating dealing with the little nib in the center. You can address that a couple ways. You can drill down to the depth you want, leaving at least 1/16 - 1/8 inch of cleanup stock, or what I quite often do, is to start by doing pull cuts from the center (start gouge in working like a drill bit) and just clean up a half inch or inch at a time with easy pull cuts at center. The push cuts from the outside will go much easier not having to go to the center nib all the time.

With practice, you'll take that nib off cleanly at the end of your push cuts from the outside.

Glad to hear you have a mentor nearby...hopefully, you will get a jump start. Don't worry about form...that will follow as your technique improves.

Nice shaving pile! Keep the edges sharp!