The practical difference

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

"Joe Blow" wants to buy a lathe. He can't see a current need beyond 16" over the bed. Variable speed is important because who wants to change belt speeds when a turn of a dial is so easy and infinitely variable. Joe wants the thing to be heavy enough and powerful enough he can turn green wood bowls for fun, not profit, as well as the spindle turnings that may embellish furniture.
Joe probably has choices ranging from a $2000 lathe to a $5000 lathe. To a guy like Joe, what is the practical difference between the 5K Plus and lower price range machines. Are we talking quality of materials, alignment of the parts, life of the machine, resale value or What? There seem to be many happy owners of a Jet brand, or the yellow machine for a third more and plenty of European lathe owners. What makes one better within the same size range and HP specs?
Please, I'm not trying to start a "what brand is best" thread. I'm really asking, given a certain skill level, what does one price range do for a turner that a lesser machine cannot?
joe
alias fmr

[Fred Perreault]

Quality of castings..... size and number of spindle bearings..... overall weight of the entire unit for stability..... overall quality of construction..... available options.... customer support... quality of electric components.... all of these things are a consideration, but probably only after the turner asks himself "what do I want to do with this machine..?". Better clubs would surely make the golfer better; better tools can make a craftsman better, and his work would be better. One cannot compare all apples on price alone. Cheaper apples may have some blemishes, but more expensive apples might not be blem free either. If you are gonna' use them for applesauce, then blemished apples would probably work. Why pay more if you are not going to maximize the benefit of better quality?

[David Woodruff]

Speaking from personal experience,the quality and complexity of my work took a quantum leap when I decided to spend $5K + on a heavy, strong, 3hp VFD machine. I was able to go from vision to reality whereas with lesser equipment it was very problematic. I do , however, give the wannabe lathes credit for making me a better turner. When one does with what one has to do with, one finds a way to do it and learns in the process. So when I bought my "good lathe" I was amazed at how well I could turn and execute the vision

[Don Alexander]

tools do not a craftsman make ................ however quality tools do make it possible to more easily produce quality work and conversely poor quality tools make quality work much more difficult if not nearly impossible

[Thom Sturgill]

I will say that in going from a Jet 1220 to a 1642 that my work has improved. Less chatter, I turn at higher speed more comfortably. I seem to remember reading (on this forum) someone that had turned on a Griz for years and defended them, then upgraded and stated that he didn't realize what he was missing.

One can extrapolate that moving up to a Robust, or OneWay, or Stubby would make at least as big a difference.

[David E Keller]

Maybe the only people who can answer this question are the ones who have turned on a lot of different lathes... I can compare the PM3520B to the similarly sized Oneway as I've turned on them both. Between those two, I couldn't tell a difference, but I didn't spend a lot of time on the Oneway. I'll look forward to the impressions of some of the folks with more gray...

[Fred Perreault]

In my previous harangue I forgot to mention that my first lathe, for 15 years and seldom used, was an older donated Craftsman monotube. Not knowing much about anything spinny, I didn't realize that the lowest speed of 875 RPM was a wee bit too high for learning, or most any other work. I did use it for 2 months intensely after I got the bowl bug, but I soon opted for a Nova 16/24. It was priced right, had features that would permit me to advance, and was of adequate quality. In a little less that 2 years, I have sold almost 200 largely utility items, but I don't imagine myself a very advanced turner. I believe that I have a lot more to learn, and the Nova can be the tool to get me there for quite a while. However, I do have a lot of accessories:)

[John Hart]

Now...my input is soley based on my personality and not on manufacturer or quality. I have learned what I would like to turn for the rest of my life. I've also learned that no one machine, within the given price range can fullfill that need 100%. So, if I had 3 or 4 thousand to spend, I think I would build one. I would research all the features of all the best machines, and create a frankenstein of sorts. Because I don't care what it looks like....only with its functionality...this would provide something that I would never feel a need to upgrade.

...at least...that's what I think today. :rolleyes:

[Chris Haas]

Let me just throw this out there, there is someone on this forum that posts a lot, i'm sure youve seen his work, anyways, he turns on one of the new delta vs midi's, that lathe is under 1K, and i would put his work up against most. Its not the lathe, its the turner. now that isnt a 16 inch swing lathe, but if you dont see yourself doing it for money and production work, dont invest 5K in a lathe, also, think about the used market, there are a lot of good buys for the patient turner. oh, one more thing, even better than a high end lathe, would be a mid grade price lathe and the rest of the money in accessores. lets see, 3 chucks, 3 bowl gouges, sharpening station, beal buffs, oneway live center, spindle steady, bowl steady (a must) one of the many hollowing rigs (mines a monster). yep, save some cash for accessories, good luck.

[Brian Greb]

I have a Delta vs Midi that I have been able to turn very nice things on... I just can't go over 12.25" in diameter... or over 96" long. That said the lathe was $600 but that's just a lathe no tools no accessories, I just did a quick tally of how much I have spent on lathe associated stuff and I have realised I could have bought a bigger lathe for what I have spent total. But it would have just been a lathe no tools. So budget is a huge issue when considering your lathe.

My current turning related tool tally is $4,200:eek:

All of that said I have turned on a mustard monster and a oneway... If I won the lottery I would definitely get the oneway. The Oneway had a quality and mass to it that is hard to describe. But here is the differences I noticed straight away:
1) Head stocks; the one way felt to have a smaller less confining head stock.
2)feel; the oneway felt like it was an immovable object
3)controls... well convenience is king

OK so I really liked the oneway... but I find myself asking this question:

"Am I a wood worker that happens to turn in my free time, or am I a turner that happens to build some furniture."

Until I answer the latter I see no benefit to having the best most expensive tool out there. If there is an upgrade That I can justify then I will upgrade.

Back to the OP's question... here is a short answer Quality+features=price. That is almost always true, there are some exceptions. Now the second part of the equation how much turning do you seriously see in your future?


One last thing I want to put out there, When choosing a 16" swing lathe pick one that will hold it's resale value... because you know someday your going to want that 20" or 24".:D

[Neil Strong]

One last thing I want to put out there, When choosing a 16" swing lathe pick one that will hold it's resale value... because you know someday your going to want that 20" or 24".:D



Not sure if this applies to your side of the pond, but over here quality holds its value, which is unfortunate for those of us who are hanging out for a good secondhand deal on our next lathe....:D

.....

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Brian,
I hear you loud and clear. I've been using my many year old Delta Homecraft lathe with three speeds: too fast, even faster and stop. I bought it 25 years ago for $150 and that included a ton of accessories and two sets of tool steel tools. Of course, when the desire to turn got me, I began to purchase only the absolute necessities. I bought a safe drive. The I bought a HHS spindle gouge, updated my grinder with balancing system, wheels and dresser, and of course a sharpening jig. Bought a DVD or six including a popular one about using the skew. Of course, I had to buy the skew and a nice wide tool rest to sharpen it. I bought a bowl gouge from Doug Thompson and a handle to hold it. Thank God I already owned diamond hones. Well, no one uses face plates any more so I had to have a chuck and jaws. Meanwhile, I'm consuming every scrap of wood I accumulated over 30 years of this hobby trying to learn to use these things. I fall asleep with famous wood turners on my TV and wake up with them repeating their instructions. We won't talk about how much I've invested into accessories and I must assume from reading all your words, it only gets worse from here.
fmr
alias, joe

[alex carey]

this joe guy sounds like he would enjoy mustard.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Alex,
Funny you say that......
joe

[Mike Minto]

Speaking from personal experience,the quality and complexity of my work took a quantum leap when I decided to spend $5K + on a heavy, strong, 3hp VFD machine. I was able to go from vision to reality whereas with lesser equipment it was very problematic. I do , however, give the wannabe lathes credit for making me a better turner. When one does with what one has to do with, one finds a way to do it and learns in the process. So when I bought my "good lathe" I was amazed at how well I could turn and execute the vision

"wannabe lathes"? so that's the kind me and so many others here must have...

[Keith Burns]

Well, I honestly believe that the lathe does not make an individual a better turner. The high dollar lathes don't improve a turner they only make the turning process easier. I can assure you that any "professional" turner out there can produce their same quality work on virtually any lathe.

[Brian Greb]

this was produced on a "wannabe" lathe, and I'm sure it would not have been any easier on a "real" lathe.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=143043

In fact i have made a lot of real nice pieces of art on a "wannabe" lathe... so I guess it's the user not the tool that makes the art.

[John Hart]

I must admit that the term "wannabe lathe" is a tad bit condescending. In fact...I just went out to the shop and patted my Craftsman on the Headstock and said, "don't worry...he wasn't talking about you"

I'm sure that it was used in a most generic way to describe those machines which do not fit in the category of "prize" lathes. But then...it is true that the machine is not the craftsman.

Except mine of course...because it is a Craftsman.

Hmmm...I better go reassure it again.;)

[Steve Kubien]

I know one full-time turner in New Zealand who turns on a Nova DVR. He turns 30 hours per week and has been on the same lathe for the past 6 years. Let's see...30 x 52 weeks x 6 years = 9360 hours, on a $2K lathe. No he doesn't turn bottle stoppers for a living. Salad bowls, platters and large hollowforms with a healthy mix of smaller stuff thrown in. He made a stand for a bed extension which allows him to rotate the headstock 180 degrees, have swing centre height of around 24" (that's 48" swing folks) and he can turn over 6 feet in length.

Now, why would I want to spend $5K and still have to build the stand to allow me to do what he does (if I wanted to)? For me, I'd like to be able to spin 24" easily and 30-36" with little effort. I'd also like a 3-4ft bed length.

Is this all a little extreme? Sure but the point is you do NOT need a $5K lathe.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Hey Gents,
I thank you all so much for your responses. I sense the thread getting away from my original question and don't want that to happen. This is a forum where everyone is complimentary and respectful to everyone else and far be it from me to be responsible for fostering any other behavior.
It sounds like additional money buys the durability and mass needed for heavy pieces and heavy use like that given by a professional turner or someone whose abilities exceed mine. I haven't read anything that tells me my particular needs can't be satisfied by the less expensive end of the spectrum, a lot of practice time and a few updated tools.
Thanks for the advise.
fmr

[David DeCristoforo]

There is a "rule of thumb" when it comes to buying any kind of equipment and that is to get the best you can afford. It's true that "tools do not the craftsman make" (why does that sound so hokey?) but it never hurts to have good quality tools.

On this forum people talk all the time about the "vortex" and I think that is because the lathe is a bit different from buying other machines. If you buy a table saw, you pretty much have everything you need to cut wood. OK, sure, you need a blade and maybe you could upgrade the fence and add a good miter gauge. Same with a band saw. Maybe you could add better guides or (again) a better fence. And things like jointers, planers, miter saws, etc, can be used "right out of the box". But with the lathe, you need a lot of other stuff too. Not only the basic tooling but chucks (and tons of jaws for them) and special hollowing tools and grinding and sharpening stuff and faceplates and tool rests and on and on it goes. You can spend as much as the cost of a decent lathe on accessories.

So if your "Joe Blow" had five grand to spend, I would tell him to consider putting three to three and a half of that into the machine itself and using to rest to outfit himself with the rest of the stuff he will want (need?).

[Jack Mincey]

I use a Powermatic 3520, new Delta VS Midi, Jet 1642, and a Oneway 1640 a lot. You can turn great things on any of these lathes. I will tell you a big difference between the Oneway and the others is the way the banjo and the tailstock lock down with very little effort. You can lock them with one finger and they will not slip. The headstock on the Oneway is smaller than the 3520 which is nice when working near that end of the turning. The live center ejects out of the tail stock with ease as well. I have to put a lot of effort to get it to eject from the other lathes. The 3520 is a great lathe, but I have to put more effort into locking the tool rest in the banjo and the banjo down or it will slip. The jet is just a smaller PM which makes it a great lathe as well. The delta is a great lathe for it's size, but you have to apply a lot of effort in tighting down the banjo or tool rest or it will slp. This said if money was no object I would buy a Stubby lathe. Look at the motors that come on lathes as well, a good motor can last one a live time.
Jack

[Roger Chandler]

I think both the Oneway and PM 3520b are great machines, and would serve any turner well. I wanted more capacity than the PM3520b [on which I have turned] as far as distance between centers.

I did not want to spend $3500.00, but found the Grizzly G0698 18x47to be a lathe with the features and capacity I wanted for turning things like bed posts, and plenty of swing for doing most bowl turnings, and it will allow for the headstock to be configured to turn off the end for up to 39" platters.

A good cross combination for a diversity of turning projects of different sorts, that allows one to be versatile as to the projects he can do. I do flatwork, and always will, but I like to do turning for the sake of it's enjoyment as well.

Features really stack up well with the 3520b, for about half the cost. Not as heavy as the 3520b, but plenty heavy enough for most of what the majority of turners get into. A great performing unit that has actually surprised me with its smooth, quiet, and powerful performance.

[Nathan Hawkes]

I turn on a 3520B, which I got a great deal on, which can be had if you shop around for price quotes. A while back PM had a promotional offer for their 18" extension. I recently put it onto the same level as the main bed instead of as a drop-down for larger work. I've turned 1 piece bigger than 20", and never even finished it--a big platter. Big things don't sell, but are fun. I know one of our turning club members who started with the same lathe and was very unhappy with the stability when turning larger pieces. He now owns a PM3520 (in addition to a 1000lb plus homemade bowl lathe that is smoother than either the grizzly or powermatic) Yes, it is much less expensive and pretty competent, but it is worth mentioning that the Powermatic weighs nearly twice what the Grizzly does, and has a much wider stance, which even if it weighed the same, would translate to more stability. If you can afford the Powermatic, buy it and don't look back. If you can't, the grizzly can be modified to be more stable, but you're going to have to work at it, and build a ballast shelf. If you really like turning big pieces, buy the Powermatic, and add a ballast shelf to it! I have about 500lbs of ballast on mine, which will still shake if you turn it up too high with a huge unbalanced piece. Harmonic vibrations exist in any lathe, but the more weight, the less shaking that goes on.

[Daniel Heine]

I started out with a Wilton mini lathe. A complete piece of junk. Next I bought a Palmgren(Craftsman) 15" full size lathe. Better, but still not good. My latest purchase was a Nova 1642. The 1642 will do anything you ask of it. Soemday I may want to upgrade to a 3520 or a oneway, but the Nova 1624 is everything I ever wanted in a lathe. Superb craftsmanship, solid design and flawless execution make this a dream machine come true for me.

Dan Heine

[Ted Evans]

I think there is one additional factor that could be added to this. Some of us really appreciate quality built tools, be it hand wrenches, hand planes or shapers, planers, or lathes. I learned many years ago that it saved me money in the long run to buy the very best tool that I could afford. I have never acquired a tool that I wished that I had bought a less expensive model but there has been a few times that I wished that I would have bought one that cost more. There is the enjoyment and satisfaction one gets when using nice equipment. A WWII jeep will get one from point A to point B just as well as a Mercedes, which one would you arrive more comfortable in and enjoy more?

[Mike Minto]

I must admit that the term "wannabe lathe" is a tad bit condescending. In fact...I just went out to the shop and patted my Craftsman on the Headstock and said, "don't worry...he wasn't talking about you"

I'm sure that it was used in a most generic way to describe those machines which do not fit in the category of "prize" lathes. But then...it is true that the machine is not the craftsman.

Except mine of course...because it is a Craftsman.

Hmmm...I better go reassure it again.;)

Joe Biden school of public speaking - remarks like that just bring out the child in me.

[Reed Gray]

I have a Robust American Beauty with a 3 hp motor. I stepped up from a 3520A, and had a 4 speed Atlas before that. Biggest difference is how much easier it is physically to turn on the bigger lathes, and especially with the sliding headstock. I have turned on a Nova DVR, the older Nova with the DC motor, the 16 inch Delta which I don't think they make any more, and the Jet 1642 with a 1.5 hp motor. You can do all of the same things on all the lathes, and I really don't need more than 16 inches of swing for 99% of what I turn, but the extra torque, mass/stability, and better over all quality of the tool makes the job easier. You can be happy just to have a lathe, and any lathe will work, but professionally, you need the best tools.

robo hippy

[todd butler]

I have been grappling over the same decision... I just can't decide if the PM is worth the extra $800 over the 2 hp Jet. I've looked at them both in person and looked closely at the owners manuals for both. Both lathes have the same electronics, same HP motor, and the same bearing at the nose of the spindle (the bearing on the PM closest to the hand wheel is slightly larger). So to me at least what you get is 200lbs of cast iron and 4 additional inches of swing for $800.....

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Todd,
I'm the same place you are. When I made my wish list it was only for a 16" swing and two HP. The Jet answers that perfectly yet I'm laboring over the PM. The extra 8 bills buys accessories and I'm not really expecting to turn wall hangings. The argument for the PM is that you obviously have more capacity if you later want it and the extra $800 will probably come back at resale time since the PM is such a popular brand. Of course, you and I both know the two brands are probably made side by side in the same Asian plant. I promised myself a decision by Thursday morning when I will make the call one way or the other. Thank God this decision is one that will ultimately add pleasure to our lives.
fmr

[Tim Rinehart]

Get the 3520 over the 1642 and don't look back. The current pricing on both is exceptional. I had a 1642, and now have the 3520.
You may not need the swing, but you get more mass, which translates into smoother time dealing with all work, especially larger blanks.
If you should ever want to turn something larger than 20", the 18" bed extension option for the 3520 is something that will give you ability to swing 38", but I don't believe you can get that sort of bed extension for the Jet. The bed extension can be mounted either at main bed level to extend spindle capacity, or in lower position (9" lower) to increase swing.

Only negative I have in the 3520 vs the 1642...the tailstock on the 1642 was a one-handed operation...the 3520 is not. That's why you may see alot of posts on solutions to deal with that. Not a huge deal..but worth mentioning.

Overall, for $800 were most of us in your shoes...would not hesitate to jump on the 3520. But if you go with the 1642, I don't think you will be unhappy either.

Good luck...Thursday is just around the corner!

[todd butler]

fmr, I decided I just couldn't see the added capacity of the PM being worth $800. I knocked mass out of the equation since I can easily add a sand box to the jet with 2oo lbs of sand for a fraction of the cost. Instead I’m going to use my $800 to buy a nice chuck and some tools…. Btw Hartville tool has turning tools and accessories for 15-30% right now with free shipping

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Btw Hartville tool has turning tools and accessories for 15-30% right now with free shipping

Oh thanks, just what I need. A reason to buy more tools.....:)

[Ray Bell]

As others have said, I don't think the lathe makes the turner. The same could be said for any woodworking machine. I could, if I had it, spend all the money in the world on fancy saws, sanders, and every jig made, and still not produce the beauty, and quality of some the furniture makers from the 1800's before any of these things were around. With that said though, I do think you should buy the best machine you can afford, and that meets your purpose. I myself have not done this at times, and have been sorry. It would be nice to buy the machine once, and know it is going to hold up for a long time.