Lets talk about Ammonia

[John Hart]

Ok...so I gots this idea.

I want to turn a big vase and then bend the mouth like a spout...then bend a piece of wood for a handle...and viola!! I gots a pitcher.:)

It's just an idea...but I wanted to research my options. Now, I have plenty of experience in wood bending...I even built my own custom wood steamer and it works quite well....but the radius I want to achieve with the pitcher handle is pretty tight, I think I need to go another route.

Soooo...checking the world wide web..I tripped over Ammonia. It seems that ammonia breaks down the cell walls so the wood is "as flexible as an inner tube" and then when the ammonia evaporates, the cells come back together in their new configuration and the wood is permanently shaped...and actually more rigid than before.

Sounds great. I'll give it a try.

But now to the turning world. I'd like to make a supposition. Suppose ammonia could be used to plasticize and strengthen rough-outs? Perhaps an untried method of preventing cracking and perhaps accelerating the drying process of green wood? Just a thought.

And I was wondering if there are any knowledgeable folks out there to tell me why I'm off base.

Next thing I learned is the process of "fuming". You take your newly turned object...sanded to 400 grit....all ready for finish. Then you put a little tray of ammonia on a table...sit your piece above the tray...then put a cardboard box over the top of it....and let it sit for 5 hours. Pull it out...and you have a darkened piece...just as if it were stained or dyed.

Soooo...I went out to the shop and built a box out of drywall (just leaned against each other) put a tray of ammonia on the table, and sat a figured maple bowl over it...then covered it up.
The maple was very light and bright. But I just snuck a peek after 3 hours..and it has a tan!!
I just thought that was cool.:)

Ok...so I need to get out more.:o

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Me thinks someone's been into the lacquer again....

Let us know how both your experiments turn out John....

[David DeCristoforo]

"...fuming"...I went out to the shop and built a box out of drywall (just leaned against each other) put a tray of ammonia on the table...The maple was very light and bright...after 3 hours..and it has a tan!!"

Wait till you try it with white oak! Then, as Doc Brown said, "Your gonna see some serious s$%t"!

[David E Keller]

Sounds like somebody has been standing too close to the open dish of ammonia:eek:... I always suspected that the lacquer was just a gateway drug.:D

Seriously, I'm very interested to see what happens with the ammonia and bending/stabilizing. If I'm not mistaken, lots of classic Arts and Crafts furniture is made from fumed white oak so the coloring technique has got a history.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It's actually the bending qualities that intrigue me the most.

[Steve Schlumpf]

First I have heard of the bending properties of ammonia - that has my interest! Have seen a number of turnings that have been fumed and it sure gives it a nice color - looks different than a stain or dye!

[Roland Martin]

Fuming definitely works well on white oak, my brother fumes his mission furniture, the longer it fumes the deeper the color gets. Haven't tried any other species so don't know what it does to different woods.
I didn't realize what amonia does to the cells, very interesting. I'd assume you'd want a decent respirator if working with amonia long enough to soak & bend, nasty stuff:eek:

[John Keeton]

Mix those lacquer vapors with the vapors from that ammonia and we will have John Hart Unleashed!!:eek:

[Allen Neighbors]

I always knew there was something strange that I liked about you, John. :D

I'm all ears!! I want to see and hear everything you learn about it. Gonna try a few things myself...:cool:

Now... :confused: about this bending: Do you just fume the piece with it? Do you steam with ammonia? Do you soak in ammonia? How long, for either of the preceding....??
Was that maple pliable after you fumed it?:eek:

[David DeCristoforo]

Here's a read:

http://books.google.com/books?id=egEdEf2BUWkC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=bending+wood+with+ammonia&source=bl&ots=ldi3YXxAAh&sig=oufBpLD94VdR_IgNVa1_cB2dtYY&hl=en&ei=7MQiTIS-L5fqnQfN5cDADw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=bending%20wood%20with%20ammonia&f=false

The article is only slightly longer than the URL...

[Roger Chandler]

It's actually the bending qualities that intrigue me the most.

bending with ammonia is the part that I want to hear about when you get the experiment done John. Keep us informed.

[David E Keller]

Here's a read:

http://books.google.com/books?id=egEdEf2BUWkC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=bending+wood+with+ammonia&source=bl&ots=ldi3YXxAAh&sig=oufBpLD94VdR_IgNVa1_cB2dtYY&hl=en&ei=7MQiTIS-L5fqnQfN5cDADw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=bending%20wood%20with%20ammonia&f=false

The article is only slightly longer than the URL...

After reading this, I think ordering the equipment for the tank and pure anhydrous ammonia will get you a visit from ATF/FBI/Homeland Security. Who knows... Maybe there will be a wood shop at the federal facility where you will be detained.

[Michael James]

Ok, now I KNOW y'all are my kind of folks. Carry on!

[Wayne Hendrix]

Can you get the radius you want with a hot pipe bender? I dont have any experience with them but I thought that pretty tight radii were possible.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=32489

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Ok...so I gots this idea.

I want to turn a big vase and then bend the mouth like a spout...then bend a piece of wood for a handle...and viola!! I gots a pitcher.:)

It's just an idea...but I wanted to research my options. Now, I have plenty of experience in wood bending...I even built my own custom wood steamer and it works quite well....but the radius I want to achieve with the pitcher handle is pretty tight, I think I need to go another route.

Soooo...checking the world wide web..I tripped over Ammonia. It seems that ammonia breaks down the cell walls so the wood is "as flexible as an inner tube" and then when the ammonia evaporates, the cells come back together in their new configuration and the wood is permanently shaped...and actually more rigid than before.

Sounds great. I'll give it a try.

But now to the turning world. I'd like to make a supposition. Suppose ammonia could be used to plasticize and strengthen rough-outs? Perhaps an untried method of preventing cracking and perhaps accelerating the drying process of green wood? Just a thought.

And I was wondering if there are any knowledgeable folks out there to tell me why I'm off base.

Next thing I learned is the process of "fuming". You take your newly turned object...sanded to 400 grit....all ready for finish. Then you put a little tray of ammonia on a table...sit your piece above the tray...then put a cardboard box over the top of it....and let it sit for 5 hours. Pull it out...and you have a darkened piece...just as if it were stained or dyed.

Soooo...I went out to the shop and built a box out of drywall (just leaned against each other) put a tray of ammonia on the table, and sat a figured maple bowl over it...then covered it up.
The maple was very light and bright. But I just snuck a peek after 3 hours..and it has a tan!!
I just thought that was cool.:)

Ok...so I need to get out more.:o

I'm not going to touch the anhydrous Ammonia, that is very dangerous stuff.

But the fuming with printers Ammonia (23%) does work well if the wood does have tannin in it. (and even this stuff has to be handled with care)

You can add tannin if the wood has little or no tannin in it, soak in strong thee or make a solution with dry Tannin like used in a tannery for making leather.

I have used the Iron Oxide in a vinegar solution to do the same thing, the penetration of these solutions are very shallow, so you do have to make sure the piece is finished as you can sand very little after the process, like taking the raised grain off.

I know you were wanting to bend a tight curve in some wood, boiling thin strips that you laminate after should make it possible to make tight curves I think.

[Frank Van Atta]

Here's a read:

http://books.google.com/books?id=egEdEf2BUWkC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=bending+wood+with+ammonia&source=bl&ots=ldi3YXxAAh&sig=oufBpLD94VdR_IgNVa1_cB2dtYY&hl=en&ei=7MQiTIS-L5fqnQfN5cDADw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=bending%20wood%20with%20ammonia&f=false

The article is only slightly longer than the URL...

Those of you wanting to experiment with this process might want to read the above article. In part, it says:

"It's important to note that anhydrous ammonia . . . is chemically pure . . . whereas household ammonia is a dilute solution of ammonia gas in water. Experiments with household ammonia will not bend wood.
Ammonia vapors are extremely dangerous to the eyes and lungs, and this process releases quantities of those noxious fumes. A fume hood and goggles are essential partos of the apparatus."

A word to the wise . . .

[Norm Zax]

For the handle consider cutting a block of wood into thin strips (say 3/32") and gluing them back together while in a bent restraining jig. After drying, the shape remains put. Smooth and finish. Much safer than ammonia.
As to safety, ammonia really is hazardous. Might be wise to check if the filter you use covers it (probably doesnt). Perform outside in any case!
Norm

[Thom Sturgill]

+1 on bent wood lamination. Anhydrous ammonia is dangerous.
Cut your strips ~ 1/8" thick. Build a form and using a bending strap, steam and pre-bend the strips. The C-bout on a fiddle is formed this way, and that should be a tight enough curve. Often the bending form is heated to make the wood more pliable before it dries the wood and sets the shape.

Then, using another set of forms, glue and clamp the strips together. Use slow setting glue to give yourself working time. If the strips are kept in order and the kerfs are small, the lamination can be almost invisible.

[John Hart]

Ok...well here we are the morning after.

First off....yes..the fumes from ammonia are not pleasant. Not only do they make you think you are going to die...but they also are reminiscent of a large cat peeing all over your shop. So...there you are.
General Rule: Lacquer - Good :) -- Ammonia - Bad :mad: -- Mixture - NOT ME!!:eek:

The fuming experiment was successful I think.
This maple bowl was one that I sanded to 400 a couple years ago, and then laid off to the side and forgotten. Yesterday it was very light and very bright. (unfortunately, I forgot to take "before" pics:()
Anyway...today it has a very nice dark tone to it...with the figure showing through a bit more, and the darker features greater enhanced. I think it is something I'll take to some future artistic steps. I'm thinking something in cherry will be my next attempt.
154140 154141

Now...on the bending. I really wasn't too keen on the idea of working with anhydrous ammonia, so I used regular household stuff (same as the fuming) and really, I don't see any bending qualities that are different from my experience using regular 'ol water soaks. The walnut strips I cut up in various thicknesses are somewhat pliable...but would certainly need further heating, or they would snap....even with a large radius bend. So that's a bust.

My bending steamer is probably the most attractive option I have right now. I made a small model dog sled a few years, bending oak, up to 1/4" thick and it worked pretty well for the small radii of that project. I think I'll build a special steamer box for my setup that will accomodate turnings.

I'll keep at it and keep you informed.

By the way....thanks everyone for your thoughts!! I love this place. :)

[Keith Burns]

Thats a very nice form John, you should try to finish it before next year.

[John Hart]

Well...I was driving into work this morning and came to two realizations:

1. I did not answer everyone's questions and did not fully explain my next steps.

2. I work in a Research Chemical facility and have access to all the equipment, materials, and safety apparatus that I would need to experience the properties of anhydrous ammonia first hand.

So, with regard to item 1.....


Me thinks someone's been into the lacquer again....
Yes Ken...that is a given. Prior to my ammonia experiments, I prepared my respirator by dipping the filters in clear, high luster lacquer, then reassembled the respirator as per the manufacturer's instructions. I always read my manual prior to such operations. I am very safe. :)


First I have heard of the bending properties of ammonia - that has my interest! Have seen a number of turnings that have been fumed and it sure gives it a nice color - looks different than a stain or dye!
My thoughts regarding household ammonia(Ammonium Hydroxide) and bending is that it is not going to work with any degree of success beyond that of plain water. Considering the smell...it just isn't worth pursuing. I thought that maybe I could try steaming with Ammonium Hydroxide...but after reading the article that David DeCristoforo posted....I see little point.

Now..on the subject of fuming...I see great things Steve. I bet you could mask off designs in your piece...and fume a bit....then mask something different and fume some more. It's my guess that you could get really creative with layering.


...I didn't realize what amonia does to the cells, very interesting....
Yeah...me too Roland. In fact if you read the article that David posted...it says that ammonia will "densifiy" the wood. This intriques me with regard to pieces of wood that contain inclusions, knots, figure, and various other features that are sure to crack during drying. If ammonia breaks down the cell, then reconstructs...it is my guess that it would relieve all the stresses in a rough turning and provide more success....especially on the gnarly stuff.


Mix those lacquer vapors with the vapors from that ammonia and we will have John Hart Unleashed!!
All I need, to make this cocktail complete, is some of that Corn Water that you distill in your back yard.;)


Who knows... Maybe there will be a wood shop at the federal facility where you will be detained.
Not to mention three meals a day, and lots of new friends.:eek:


Ok, now I KNOW y'all are my kind of folks. Carry on!
We haven't even started yet Jesse...I mean Michael...We're gonna break every law....I mean...record in the book.;)


Can you get the radius you want with a hot pipe bender? I dont have any experience with them but I thought that pretty tight radii were possible.

Perhaps...I've never tried it...but I know that the pitcher handle I want to do is pretty much an "S" shape...I'm going to have to create a jig, cut small..long pieces and laminate on that jig methinks.
Can you play the Star Spangled Banner on the guitar?:)

To be continued.....:)

[John Hart]

....continuation of post number 21


You can add tannin if the wood has little or no tannin in it, soak in strong thee or make a solution with dry Tannin like used in a tannery for making leather.

I have used the Iron Oxide in a vinegar solution to do the same thing, the penetration of these solutions are very shallow, so you do have to make sure the piece is finished as you can sand very little after the process, like taking the raised grain off.

I know you were wanting to bend a tight curve in some wood, boiling thin strips that you laminate after should make it possible to make tight curves I think.
Now...I have a question Leo...is the tannin(TannicAcid) the same as the tannin that you can make wine with? If so...I have a bunch of it that I'd like to use for something. (I don't make wine anymore)
The whole fuming thing has me really intrigued...perhaps a shallow penetration can be exploited a bit.


A word to the wise . . .
Yup yup...you are absolutely right Frank....With regard to Anhydrous Ammonia....Don't mess around with it unless you are well-equipped...and properly briefed on its dangers and properties. I will be addressing this later...further.


On the subject of bending laminations
I agree Norm and Thom...and that is probably the route I'll take...and use my existing steamer equipment to assist in getting the wood malleable. But I'll also continue on with experimentation with ammonia on the subject of stabilization and fuming...at least for the benefit of others, through the documentation that it will create....
....unless, of course, I die from it....in which case, y'all will need to kind of interpolate where the experiment went wrong. :)


Thats a very nice form John, you should try to finish it before next year.
Oh sure...easy for you to say. Between work, lawn care, deck building, and hazardous material experiments....who has time for finishing bowls?:confused:

'Course then....I do need a new popcorn bowl...and it gives me a chance to spray some lacquer.....Ok ok...I'll skip work.;):)

Continued in a little while.....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

My neck was getting a little stiff but with your reemergence I can see that problem will be resolved......shortly......


This is Ken in Idaho ......looking down......shaking his head.............

[John Hart]

This is Ken in Idaho ......looking down......shaking his head.............

You should get that fixed Ken. I had a little dog in the back dash of my car that did that. I just tore his head off and pounded that staple in further. Come on over...I still have the tools. ;)

[Karl Card]

After reading this, I think ordering the equipment for the tank and pure anhydrous ammonia will get you a visit from ATF/FBI/Homeland Security. Who knows... Maybe there will be a wood shop at the federal facility where you will be detained.



maybe we should do this as a group???!!!!!

[Leo Van Der Loo]

....continuation of post number 21


Now...I have a question Leo...is the tannin(TannicAcid) the same as the tannin that you can make wine with? If so...I have a bunch of it that I'd like to use for something. (I don't make wine anymore)
The whole fuming thing has me really intrigued...perhaps a shallow penetration can be exploited a bit.

/snip/ /snip/

Continued in a little while.....

John I do make my wine also, but never use the Tannic Acid, less mouth pucker without the stuff ;) :D

I do think that this would be the same material and if you still have some give it a try, wood like Ash or Maple will be good to try it on.

Oak already has lots of Tannin in it, but I wonder if you could get it to become ever darker if tannin where added, if only there were a few more hours in a day.........:rolleyes: ;)

[Bruce Pratt]

If you want to fume wood with low tannin content, you can soak the piece in a solution of Quebracho, which is an extract of bark of the South American tree Schinopsis lorentzii. This bark extract is extensively used for traditional leather tanning. Alternatively, extract of walnut hulls, chestnut and other barks can also be used. Quebracho powder can be obtained from leather tanning suppliers.
----------------------
Bruce Pratt

[John Hart]

I would like to thank everyone for this great input. I had no idea the interest that might be generated....in fact, I expected a few stones to be thrown.

But back to my answers


Now... :confused: about this bending: Do you just fume the piece with it? Do you steam with ammonia? Do you soak in ammonia? How long, for either of the preceding....??
Was that maple pliable after you fumed it?:eek:
As far as the bending goes..it looks like only the Anhydrous Ammonia will work....and I did a little more research and found that Caustic Soda will do the same thing.
But to directly answer your first question....no, you do not fume the piece to accomplish the bend. Ammonia is liquid at temperatures below -25F or at 130 psi pressure. Above -25F or at typical atmospheric pressure of say 14psi, the liquid begins to boil and evaporate. However, it evaporates slowly, so you are able to put your wood in a bath, but the system needs to be sealed. The process takes about 45 minutes.
With caustic soda...you don't have the temperature or pressure restrictions, or the difficulty of an extremely hazardous material....but caustic soda may leave a residue behind.

On that Maple bowl...I checked and it was just as rigid immediately after the fuming as it was prior to the fuming.

It's funny...with all I've checked on...it actually sounds like steaming is the easiest method....unless you want to tie the wood in a knot....then the ammonia becomes essential.

Also....I went through our purchase history today at work, and a cylinder of ammonia would cost me about $300 after hazardous shipping and all that. So now...it doesn't even seem cost effective.

Anyway....I work at a Research Chemical company with plenty of lab space available and chemists willing to help me. It will take months to set up a dedicated test system to try this out.

If I were honest with myself, I would venture to guess that the test will never happen due to the costs, the favors, the permission, and the time.

Nevertheless...I will pursue the caustic soda route for experimentation reasons....because I have all the stuff here in the house already. (soap making)

I will also continue to pursue the fuming stuff. I think that will be a lot of fun.

I bought a wallpaper steamer at HD for $10 a few years ago and built a steamer. It works good, but utilizes a large pvc pipe for the steambox. I'll need to build a different box to accomodate turnings. And I think I'll mess with drying roughouts to see how they behave. Seems to me, I can control warpage this way too.

Anyway...its time to call it a night. My girls want to watch a movie....and I have the time. Seize the day...as they say.

[Rick Lizek]

We use anhydrous ammonia for fuming timbers in our business.
The bending with ammonia is another issue. It was covered in Fine Woodworking years ago and requires a lab with an autoclave and things way beyond the non-scientist, technician. It's more than puring some household ammonia on a chunk of wood. Check out www.bendywood.com Again, not something you can do at home...

[Allen Neighbors]

John, thanks for the details... I appreciate your time - and brains! :D

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Just to add to the info here, the bark of White Oak used to be used for the same reason in my native country, this was still done when my Mom and Dad were young, the Oak branches and logs would be hit with clubs to loosen the bark and remove it, it would work best in the springtime.
Some people did this for a living and got their names from that, Blek or Blekker or Den Blek or similar :-))

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You should get that fixed Ken. I had a little dog in the back dash of my car that did that. I just tore his head off and pounded that staple in further. Come on over...I still have the tools. ;)


John...John...John......Why would I want to get that "fixed"? I started perfecting this in the late 50's and early 60's listening to Motown music. Later, I improved upon it listening to the British Invasion. Then.....in the late '60s...the Psychedelic Rock.....WOW!

John........in the not too distant future if you happen to come to Lewiston, Idaho.........you see a guy....sitting at a stoplight.....watches the light changes several times........bald head..........white hair lining the side of the head......he's apparently sneezed both of his dentures on to the dashboard of the vehicle he's driving........There he is John.....bobbleheading in time to IN THE GADDA DA VIDDA...........that'll be me. Wave John!

Rock On!

[Richard Madison]

And I think I'll mess with drying roughouts to see how they behave. Seems to me, I can control warpage this way too.

John, this is the part that interests me and perhaps others as well. Boiling roughouts has been shown to reduce warping and cracking. I have long thought that steaming might be just as effective. And a steam box may be more easily within the resources of many folks than a big boiling pot and heat source. Hope you will find time to try this.

[John Hart]

...Rock On!

It's funny....back in the 70's, when I was a radio disc jockey in Boise, people were constantly phoning in requests for in-a-gadda-da-vida. I got so sick of that song.:o Musta been you Mr Fitzgerald!!!:)

[John Hart]

John, this is the part that interests me and perhaps others as well. Boiling roughouts has been shown to reduce warping and cracking. I have long thought that steaming might be just as effective. And a steam box may be more easily within the resources of many folks than a big boiling pot and heat source. Hope you will find time to try this.

Yep...I highly encourage everyone to build a steamer box. For less than $20, you can greatly enhance every aspect of your woodworking. Bent wood has a character that is attractive...even when used as a simple embellishment.
But the real question here...is how to use it in the vortex...as you said.

From my past bending experience...the heat generated from steaming is fairly substantial....and anyone who has used a pressure cooker knows that the pressure created, will break down vegetable fibers in short order. We may be able to use that concept to our benefit.

I was thinking...Let's say you have a simple bowl roughout. If you were to turn a recess in a piece of plywood that matches the rim of the bowl...you could steam the bowl....pull it out of the steamer, and force the rim into the plywood recess, to maintain the bowls roundness as it cools.....kinda like bending...only you are forcing it to not bend.

Anyway...it's just a concept. I'll build the steam box this weekend. Shouldn't take but a couple hours. Then we'll see.:)

[John Hart]

I just had a thought!!!

I realized that I had this piece of 1" thick plexiglass that has been leaning up against this fence for 4 years now. I thought I would make a bunch of cutting boards out of it. I just went out there a couple minutes ago to measure it and take a pic.

154217

But it just occurred to me that I can make a 16X16X16 box out of it. That oughta be perfect for my steamer box....and it should clean up nicely. And it's free!!!:)

Just a few flatwork cuts....a couple of screws...a little caulking....woo hoo!!

[David Nelson1]

I would like to thank everyone for this great input. I had no idea the interest that might be generated....in fact, I expected a few stones to be thrown.

But back to my answers


As far as the bending goes..it looks like only the Anhydrous Ammonia will work....and I did a little more research and found that Caustic Soda will do the same thing.
But to directly answer your first question....no, you do not fume the piece to accomplish the bend. Ammonia is liquid at temperatures below -25F or at 130 psi pressure. Above -25F or at typical atmospheric pressure of say 14psi, the liquid begins to boil and evaporate. However, it evaporates slowly, so you are able to put your wood in a bath, but the system needs to be sealed. The process takes about 45 minutes.
With caustic soda...you don't have the temperature or pressure restrictions, or the difficulty of an extremely hazardous material....but caustic soda may leave a residue behind.

On that Maple bowl...I checked and it was just as rigid immediately after the fuming as it was prior to the fuming.

It's funny...with all I've checked on...it actually sounds like steaming is the easiest method....unless you want to tie the wood in a knot....then the ammonia becomes essential.

Also....I went through our purchase history today at work, and a cylinder of ammonia would cost me about $300 after hazardous shipping and all that. So now...it doesn't even seem cost effective.

Anyway....I work at a Research Chemical company with plenty of lab space available and chemists willing to help me. It will take months to set up a dedicated test system to try this out.

If I were honest with myself, I would venture to guess that the test will never happen due to the costs, the favors, the permission, and the time.

Nevertheless...I will pursue the caustic soda route for experimentation reasons....because I have all the stuff here in the house already. (soap making)

I will also continue to pursue the fuming stuff. I think that will be a lot of fun.

I bought a wallpaper steamer at HD for $10 a few years ago and built a steamer. It works good, but utilizes a large pvc pipe for the steambox. I'll need to build a different box to accomodate turnings. And I think I'll mess with drying roughouts to see how they behave. Seems to me, I can control warpage this way too.

Anyway...its time to call it a night. My girls want to watch a movie....and I have the time. Seize the day...as they say.

John,
Did you finally come to any conclusion using the caustic soda?

[Barry Elder]

I remember her well! Or was that Lacquer?! No matter, I sort-of recovered the next day or week. Hic!

[Quinn McCarthy]

John,

FWW magazine on fuming pieces of furniture. They made a plastic temporary booth for over thebath and piece.

Hope that helps.

Quinn