Shaper question

[Dan Chouinard]

Any opinions on the Grizzly G9933 3 spindle shaper? Saw a used one today for $3,000 and was intrigued. Currently use one router table to make cabinet doors. Work keeps coming in and 3 bills seams like a reasonable investment for my 21' by 27' shop. Should I consider a multi-spindle and is this Grizzly a decent machine?

How many of you guys use two shapers for doors? One with stacked cutters for the cope and stick and one for the panels. Is stacking cutters a good or bad practice?

Thanks,
Dan

[Jeff Duncan]

No opinions on that specific machine as I haven't used one, I shy away from most Grizzly stuff these days. I know I'm in the minority with that view here, but I make my living with my tools, and the equipment I've bought from them before was not worth the investment for me personally. I certainly wouldn't buy them used, besides that seems high, I though those 3 fer's were somewhat cheaper for some reason?
For 3k you'll have several options to look into. My personal recommendation would be to pick up 2 good quality used medium duty shapers, say Powermatic 27's or similar, and feeders to go with. Probably even have a few bucks left to invest in some nice tooling. Or even pick up a 3rd if you have seperate funds set aside for tooling already.
As far as stacking cutters I think it's fine with a good heavy duty shaper....ie. probably not the Powermatic 27 (though it's probably doable), and not the Grizzly. I have 2 shapers (yup, one's a 5 hp 27) and use the 27 for most of my door stuff, but I swap out the heads. Only takes a few more seconds anyway. If I was going to stack I'd look toward something a bit more robust. Plenty of capable machines out there, though if you want to be in the 3k range you'll be looking at older machines.
good luck,
JeffD

[Joe Chritz]

I use a single shaper for doors. A multi spindle would be great if you don't change profiles at all or have to go back and do add ons or re-mill parts. I wouldn't think it would save a lot of time if you go through and mill all the parts at once like I tend to do.

Stacked cutters are fine but I normally install them single. If I have a few extra spindles it would be nice to leave set up but I use the shaper for lots of other things and invariably the height gets moved which makes it less cool.

Even if I did have three shapers, I don't have three feeders.

You can get three single shapers for about the same cost I imagine or a single with a great power feed and a box of cutters.

Next time I need a new profile I will be switching to insert tooling, likely the Freud offering.

Joe

[Dan Chouinard]

This 48 year old nail banger with a bad shoulder is very interested in power feeding. How do you change cutters and get proper height set up so quickly Jeff? I am sure my current method is ass backwards and a time waster.

What is insert tooling Joe?

Thanks guys,
Dan

[J.R. Rutter]

How do you change cutters and get proper height set up so quickly?

Standardize your tooling and procedures.

Since you will be needing shaper cutters, shop carefully for a supplier / system that has constant radial (diameter) and axial (height) dimensions for various profiles. Get extra spacers and shims so that you can change out cutters on the spindle without adjusting the height. This will let you create stacks of spacers and tools that will swap as a group. A digital readout for spindle height is also helpful for returning to zero after that inevitable one-off.

Move the fence as little as possible. Use an indexing system like stops in the table, spacers, etc. to allow you to return to a master fence setting quickly without fiddling. Make auxiliary fences that attach to the factory fence for when you need different settings. Learn how to use an outboard, or trap, fence for shaping the sticking (the profile with the groove). Spacer blocks between the shaper fence and outboard fence make setups fast and easy.

As far as stacked tooling goes, it works well on machines with heavy spindles and very minimal vibration. Depending on your circumstances, you can either stack different profiles for the same operation - like coping sets on one spindle, sticking sets on another, etc, and crank the spindle up and down to change profiles. Advantage here is that the shaper station can be left set up with a feeder for sticking or a sled for coping. Or you can stack mating pairs so that the coping set is at the correct height for use with a coping sled without height changes. Spacers and shims between the cutters help get the spacing dialed in. A lot depends on your specific situation.


What is insert tooling?

Instead of brazing the carbide (or alloy) tips onto steel bodies, insert tools hold removable tips in the cutterhead body with screws or gibs. The advantages are sharper tips that last longer due to a different grade of carbide, ability to get alloy tips with same profile for better performance on some woods, ability to change profiles to a certain extent depending on the tool body design, no need to send out for sharpening, diameter stays constant, and mating profiles do not change. Any good industrial brazed tool maker will have a line of insert tools as well. Initial cost is probably higher, but I find that they save time ($) downstream because the cut quality is so good and repeatable.

[Karl Brogger]

I think insert tooling is cheaper down the road as well. You buy the head once, (which is usually not that much more than a regular cutter), but the inserts are dirt cheap. VS after a number of sharpenings where you have to throw the entire cutter away eventually.

I've never looked into having new cutters brazed onto an old head, it might not be that bad either.

[Joe Chritz]

What he said.

I don't mess around trying to get the set ups super easy to repeat. I do enough one off stuff that I just set it up each time. It does take a bit longer but with some set up blocks (just a scrap of what needs to be cut) it only takes a couple minutes tops.

Cutters depend on what and how much you do. If you are going to do only one kind of 5 piece door it may or may not be worth going with insert but if you want a bunch of different profiles it is a great system. FWI, I don't use any currently and generally get one of the better 3/4" bore cutters when possible. The Katana series from MLCS has been pretty good for me.

Joe

[Paul Greathouse]

Dan

Another option is to build a triple router table similar to the Grizzly Shaper. I built one last year and it works great for cabinet doors. I just finished making doors for a complete kitchen and it was great not to have to change out my rail and stile bits. I have them set dead on now and will not have to worry about setting them up again unless I change R&S profiles. I use 2 1/4hp routers and they handle the R&S bits with ease.

I know the idea in having the 3 cutterheads is to do raised panels with the 3rd one but I use a shaper for my raised panel work so I have a 1/2" straight bit set up in the 3rd router for all my drawer part dados.

Here's a link to my thread on the triple router table build, in case you haven't seen it yet. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=124262

I didn't keep track because I bought things over a period of time but considering the cost of the 3 routers, hardware, MDF, plywood & misc items I probably have somewhere between $800 - $1000 tied up in the table. I went with Freud 1700 fixed base routers but if I were going to do it over I would get the 2 1/4hp Milwaukee's instead. They are smoother running and the bases are built better in my opinion.

[Peter Quinn]

I can't speak to the Grizzly tri shaper, I have never used a grizzly shaper, I'd guess you get what you pay for as in most things. And that may be enough to do many shaper activities. it may not be robust enough to handle larger tasks like moldings and passage doors? Maybe so, but I have my doubts. For cabinet doors it would probably be fine.

At work we have three shaper set ups for each door operation, one cope, one stick, one panel raiser. I wouldn't want a multi cutter spindle set up on a 5HP or below shaper. The spindles are not typically robust enough to run both cope and stick on one spindle, you get chatter and deflection, and there is no advantage. I don't like the single cope and stick cutters either as they aren't adjustable for different panel thicknesses and you are limited to raised panels or back cuts, plus if they get sharpened how do you make adjustments? Not a great long term plan. If you had a martin or SCMI with big quick change spindles and digital height settings, it makes sense to stack multiple cutters on a spindle. If not. I don't perceive any advantage.

In my own small home shop I have three shapers, Mama bear (3HP delta), Papa bear (5HP minimax), and baby bear (1 1/2HP Craftsman), and I have cabinet doors down to 20 minutes per door from rough stock to clamps on any set over 10! The Delta does the sticking, the little craftsman is set up for coping with a sled, and the minimax does the panels and any molding work, sort of a float. Its nice being able to leave them set up over a job, or set up with my most popular cutters over several jobs.