Which files for saw sharpening

[Jeff Dickie]

I will be visiting a Gentleman next week who said he would love to show a buddy and me how to sharpen handsaws. I am kind of a tool nut and bought a saw vise and saw set because...well just because. What type of files do I need? I want to show up fully prepared. The Gentleman has been sharpening saws for 70 years...I can't wait. Are there any other tools I need to bring? I am going to Woodworking in America in October and wanted to get a head start.

Jeff

[James Taglienti]

i dunno, i just use a triangular file. some folks can get their saws really sharp with different tapers of triangular file, i just use whatever i've got.

if you've got a few of them, i'd use the less aggressive one.

also if the guy has been sharpening saws for 70 years he might have a few lying around ;)

[Archie England]

I will be visiting a Gentleman next week who said he would love to show a buddy and me how to sharpen handsaws. I am kind of a tool nut and bought a saw vise and saw set because...well just because. What type of files do I need? I want to show up fully prepared. The Gentleman has been sharpening saws for 70 years...I can't wait. Are there any other tools I need to bring? I am going to Woodworking in America in October and wanted to get a head start.

Jeff


You'll be much better informed AFTER that session.

[David Weaver]

I will be visiting a Gentleman next week who said he would love to show a buddy and me how to sharpen handsaws. I am kind of a tool nut and bought a saw vise and saw set because...well just because. What type of files do I need? I want to show up fully prepared. The Gentleman has been sharpening saws for 70 years...I can't wait. Are there any other tools I need to bring? I am going to Woodworking in America in October and wanted to get a head start.

Jeff

Find any of the TPI charts on the web, don't worry too much about where they disagree, count the teeth on your saws and follow one of them and get a couple of files for your saws.

Try to get american or western european files if you can. The mexican nicholsons are OK in my experience, but I hate to reward cooper tools for shipping off their files, because eventually, they'll suck.

Grobet swiss, and I think they make them in portugal, too, those are OK. There are still NOS nicholsons around.

Single cut.

You can also just go to mcmaster carr - I ordered from them a while ago, and didn't know what brand I'd be getting and ended up with grobet swiss for a lot cheaper than anyone else had them. Usually mcmaster carr is high, but they always provide something good quality where they don't denote brand on their page, but in this case, they were lower than most.

I've also gotten US-made nicholosons from Wholesale Tool, but they don't always have everything you want in stock, and they aren't as quick as mcmaster carr.

[Jim Koepke]

When I have bought Nicholson triangle files in a hardware store, they had a chart on the back of the package. Most hardware stores only carry two or three sizes.

Vintagesaws.com and Norsewoodsmith.com both have charts on their sites. I think toolsforworkingwood.com may also have a chart.

In the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs there is a post Bob Smalser wrote about saw sharpening. The link he has posted seems to work, but has I think the original site has changed a little.

Here is a saw chart I have used. X means extra slim and XX means double extra slim:

154040

I have learned a lot just from reading. It would be great to learn from someone who has been doing it for so many years.

jim

[James Taglienti]

hmm

why does the size of the file matter? is it a hand control thing, or is it because that little radius on the corners is smaller? or is it because the teeth are smaller, to leave a finer surface?
:confused:

[Zach England]

I just ordered some from TFWW. They were cheap enough I just got one of each except the biggest ones.

[Darnell Hagen]

The size of the file is related to its use. You want a file twice as tall as the tooth, so when you rotate the file its using new teeth every time.

[Tony Shea]

why does the size of the file matter? is it a hand control thing, or is it because that little radius on the corners is smaller? or is it because the teeth are smaller, to leave a finer surface?



I am very limited in experience with this but I believe the size of the actual triangle is smaller (narrower) which in turn creates the proper size gullets while sharpening. This is just my theory as I really have only sharpened one saw with the proper size file listed in these charts. The file size should closely match the gullet size of the particular saw you're sharpening. A wider file will creat larger gullets which create less teeth per inch.

[James Taglienti]

i dunno- i think it's an equilateral triangle which makes each corner 60* no matter what - i am thinking that the even wear thing sounds pretty good

[Bob Easton]

It's all about the money.

The file size matters mostly because saw files don't last a very long time. Working typical saw hardness, they wear fast. So, since you'll be replacing them fairly often, and since they're priced by size, why wear out more than you need to?

If you haven't worn out your saw files yet, you aren't sharpening enough. :)

[David Weaver]

The size of the file is related to its use. You want a file twice as tall as the tooth, so when you rotate the file its using new teeth every time.

This is why different sizes - 3 good sharpening sessions with a fresh edge each time. Smaller files have sharper corners, which are necessary for smaller teeth with small gullets, even without discussing that you have better control with a proper sized file.

[Jim Koepke]

hmm

why does the size of the file matter? is it a hand control thing, or is it because that little radius on the corners is smaller? or is it because the teeth are smaller, to leave a finer surface?
:confused:

There are a few reasons.

As already mentioned, you will wear half the edge with a properly sized file. When the file is worn down, it will be equally worn and may actually be still usable for tasks other than saw sharpening.

Having the proper size file will also help you to see that you are not cutting a tooth too deep.

The files are all equilateral triangles, but the corners are not perfect meeting of planes. The larger the file, the wider the area where the sides meet. As someone else said, this can cause your gullets to get round bottoms and bad tooth geometry. As also mentioned, it wastes a part of the file surface.

The round bottom problem can really show up when filing crosscut.

The files should all be smooth cut for saw filing. The different size files will have the same size teeth, just more or less of them. The full stroke of a 4 inch file is right for 15 ppi. The full stroke of a larger file would likely leave too little material for the next tooth.

It would be kind of like using a 1 inch chisel to cut the waste between dovetails that are spaced 1/4 inch apart. You may be able to do it, but it can get sloppy.

jim

[James Taglienti]

thanks guys

[Jeff Dickie]

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate all the good advise I get at this web site. I look forward to my session.

Jeff

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate all the good advise I get at this web site. I look forward to my session.

Jeff

Let us know how it goes.

Today, you are finding new things.

Tomorrow, you will be telling others new things.

That is the spirit that will keep forums like this going to our future generations.

Ask a little, learn a little, teach a little...

jim

[Mike Brady]

The file should be about twice as wide as the height of the saw tooth. No more. This way each corner of the file as two fresh 60 degree angles. Of course you will have three sets of fresh sides and corners per file. I can do a couple of 26" saws with one file if a lot of tooth shaping isn't needed.

[Don Orr]

I haven't seen anyone metion the need for a jointing file. A flat mill file is commonly used I believe. There are fixtures to hold them as well. Such as the LV holder for sharpening card scrapers. Or just a block of wood to hold the file @ 90 deg.

I also think that reading the tutorial at www.vintagesaws.com (http://www.vintagesaws.com) is one of the best tools available for sharpening hand saws.

Good luck and have fun !

[matt braun]

I can do a couple of 26" saws with one file if a lot of tooth shaping isn't needed.

Are you saying you can sharpen a saw twice before you replace the file? If not, how many sharpenings do you get from one file?

[Darnell Hagen]

how many sharpenings do you get from one file?


Depends on the quality of saw, size of saw, quality of file, amount of steel removed.

I shoot for one sharpening per corner, sometimes it works out, sometime not.

+1 on the saw jointer, although you don't need to do that every time.

If I remember correctly the Norse Woodsmith has a saw sharpening article that is quite good.