Veneering Setup Costs

[Mike Scoggins]

I realized a long time ago that for me, my woodworking does not really pay for itself as a lot of people (i.e., the non-woodworker) might think. But, that’s OK because woodworking is my hobby primarily. Having said that, I do, however (like most other hobbyists), like to get the most out of the $ I spend (or at least make responsible purchases most of the time, with the occasional splurge thrown in for good measure). I’ve been intrigued by veneering lately -- particularly, the curly grains and highly figured veneers that make such beautiful tabletops – which prompts the following questions.

1) What should one expect to pay (ballpark) for a fully functional setup (vacuum pump, bags, fittings, hoses, glues, glue applicators, cauls, cork, MDF or other “sandwiching” material, and any other realistically necessary accessories) that will enable one to create veneered table tops (e.g. coffee tables with a 50’ x 30” top)?

2) Once one has his/her shop outfitted with the necessary equipment (vacuum press), is the cost of the veneers (both top and bottom) the substrate material, glues, etc. substantially different versus that for a solid wood top? I’m guessing the answer is probably “yes” for a comparably figured tabletop, but I don’t have an experience base from which to draw in relation to highly figured woods.

No matter which branch of woodworking one ventures into, there are always accessories that are mandatory (and others nearly so) that should be factored into the cost. For example, when someone begins to work with hand planes, there are the obligatory sharpening accessories that are simply mandatory. The problem is that when one begins the journey down one of these “new” branches, the ignorance factor prevents him/her from making a realistic estimate (one doesn’t even know what he/she doesn’t know). So, here I am standing at the intersection which branches off into veneering, and I don’t even know what I don’t know. :o

All experiences and insights from the “SMC veneering knowledge pool” are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

[Herb Blair]

Mike,
Attached is a picture of my setup.
I bought the pump (new) on EBAY for $45
I made the bag from material from Rochford supply http://www.rochfordsupply.com/
The bag valve, check valve, and vacuum controller (not absolutely necessary) from http://www.joewoodworker.com
I made the clamp to seal the bag.
I think the most expensive thing other than the pump was the 8 or so 6" bessy clamps that I use to clamp the end seal.
If you read joewoodworker site very carefully and get the things from him that are hard to find you can put together a first class veneering system for <$150.

[Mike Scoggins]

Herb,

Thanks for the information. The <$150 is much less than I expected.

Do you have any suggestions on what to look for/things to stay away from regarding the vacuum pump?

Mike

[Herb Blair]

Mike,
get a gast or thomas. Mine is thomas. My pump is about the size of a loaf of bread. rated for continuous duty. You want something that will pull about 25" of Hg. I checked ebay just now and found serveral that would meet the bill.




Herb,

Thanks for the information. The <$150 is much less than I expected.

Do you have any suggestions on what to look for/things to stay away from regarding the vacuum pump?

Mike

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Mike, Woodcraft had a bag and manual pump on sale in their flyer in Oct or Nov. I don't remember the exact price, but it was pretty cheap if I remember correctly. Maybe someone else will have the exact price.

[Steve Cox]

The JoeWoodworker site has great info and make sure you look into the cost of the venturii system. I needed a compressor also so I bought a big enough one to do many jobs and built a veneer press to run off of it.

[Mike Scoggins]

Steve,

Is the veneer press you built off of the JoeWoodworker plans? Are you pleased with it?

Thanks,
Mike

[Mike Scoggins]

Dennis,

I don't remember seeing the manual vacuum pump in the Woodcraft flyer. I'll have to see if I still have it around.

Thanks for the tip,
Mike

[Mike Scoggins]

Mike,
get a gast or thomas. Mine is thomas. My pump is about the size of a loaf of bread. rated for continuous duty. You want something that will pull about 25" of Hg. I checked ebay just now and found serveral that would meet the bill.

Thanks Herb; you've been very helpful.

Mike

[Steve Cox]

I built the one from their plans. It's worked well enough for me. It is a little slow to empty the bag compared to some other systems I've worked with (much more expensive). I haven't tried it with large curved parts yet so I don'r know how it will work there. The suggestion to use a shop vac to initially pull down the bag woks pretty well.

[Keith Christopher]

Dennis,

I don't remember seeing the manual vacuum pump in the Woodcraft flyer. I'll have to see if I still have it around.

Thanks for the tip,
Mike
Mike,

The latest issue of wood craft's new magazine has a review of this manual vacuum press. It appears to work well and was reviewed favorably from the magazine. The press was designed by a skateboard shop to veneer skateboards. you can get about 1/2 the pressure as with pump driven press. (able to clear more air allowing the sky above to do the work for you) I will be posting an "experiment" either this week or next on something I'm trying for small veneers with pictures. I won't mention it because I don't want to be laughed at before I get a failure or success. a VERY low cost alternative for vacuum pressing.

vacupress.com has some nice systems and good 20mil vinyl or 30 mil poly bags, a little bit of a premium but over all good systems.

Keith

Keith

[Matthew Poeller]

Steve,

I was looking into the system for the air compressor. I have a 5hp 25 gal. I was wondering what size yours was and how often it turned on. I would like to build one but I do not want it to turn on all the time since I have a basement shop and the compressor would wake me up if it turned on in the middle of the night.

[Mike Scoggins]

Mike,

The latest issue of wood craft's new magazine has a review of this manual vacuum press. It appears to work well and was reviewed favorably from the magazine. The press was designed by a skateboard shop to veneer skateboards. you can get about 1/2 the pressure as with pump driven press. (able to clear more air allowing the sky above to do the work for you) I will be posting an "experiment" either this week or next on something I'm trying for small veneers with pictures. I won't mention it because I don't want to be laughed at before I get a failure or success. a VERY low cost alternative for vacuum pressing.

vacupress.com has some nice systems and good 20mil vinyl or 30 mil poly bags, a little bit of a premium but over all good systems.

Keith

Keith,

Thanks for the information. I'm really curious about your "experiment." I'll anxiously await your post with pictures. Hope that whatever your idea is that it works.

Mike

[jerry cousins]

i have been veneering for several years and have gone through most of the "equipment stages." started with maple cauls and clamps, then a venturi system off the compressor, and now a vacuum pump.
the manual caul and clamp worked well but was time consuming. for the glue to cure you need to leave it in until it dries (usually overnight for me) and you need lots of clamps and several sheets of mdf to make the sandwich (at least that's what i used). all in all pretty cumbersome.
the venturi system also worked but i found it a big drain on the compressor - it recycled frequently - i have a 5 hp 35 gallon unit - and for bigger bags it really did not keep up.
now i use a continuous duty gast pump - which purrs quietly - i believe it is rated for 45000 hours of running - and in a vcauum press it only needs less than 2 hours for pressing. it really is a sweet system.
i built platens and bags ala joewoodworker.
happened to be in a woodcraft store and looked at the manual system - i think it was on sale for $55 (+/-). not of wonderful quality - very thin bag and the plastic hand pump seemed flimsy.
would imagine you could get a good setup going for around $300 (if you fabricated the bags)
not sure of the veneer/wood cost comparison cause i usually cut my own veneers on the bs.

just my more than .02 worth.

jerry

[Bob Aquino]

I bought that manual system and returned it. Couldnt hold a vacuum for more than a minute and very flimsey. Save your money. Joewoodworker has good info, if I decide to go into this further, that is probably where I will start.

[Matt Allan]

I have been looking into the joewoodworker setup myself lately, I would really like to get more into veneering. So far I have only done small projects. I first tried to use cauls and clamps, that didn't work so great for me. I didn't get the excess glue spread out with enough pressure so I got some bumps, luckily for me that was the back side and I got the front done alright.

For small panels I got the idea of using my cars, jack them up and drop it on overnight. Worked great..

Made a post about it when I did it with pics here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12735

[Kevin Murdock]

Hi Herb,

Looking at eBay I'm not sure that I found the correct vacuum pump. The costs seem to be higher than the $45 you mentioned. Also, most seem to be for AC repair, not sure if they are one in the same.

Not sure if this breaks the SMC laws, so if not a link, can you provide your seach keywords for shopping for a pump on eBay?

Thanks,
/Kevin

[Mike Scoggins]

i have been veneering for several years and have gone through most of the "equipment stages." started with maple cauls and clamps, then a venturi system off the compressor, and now a vacuum pump.
the manual caul and clamp worked well but was time consuming. for the glue to cure you need to leave it in until it dries (usually overnight for me) and you need lots of clamps and several sheets of mdf to make the sandwich (at least that's what i used). all in all pretty cumbersome.
the venturi system also worked but i found it a big drain on the compressor - it recycled frequently - i have a 5 hp 35 gallon unit - and for bigger bags it really did not keep up.
now i use a continuous duty gast pump - which purrs quietly - i believe it is rated for 45000 hours of running - and in a vcauum press it only needs less than 2 hours for pressing. it really is a sweet system.
i built platens and bags ala joewoodworker.
happened to be in a woodcraft store and looked at the manual system - i think it was on sale for $55 (+/-). not of wonderful quality - very thin bag and the plastic hand pump seemed flimsy.
would imagine you could get a good setup going for around $300 (if you fabricated the bags)
not sure of the veneer/wood cost comparison cause i usually cut my own veneers on the bs.

just my more than .02 worth.

jerry

Jerry,

Thanks a lot for your response. This is the kind of information that is so helpful IMHO -- someone who has "been there and done that" sharing from their experiences. Any tips on sources for the continuous duty Gast pump?

Thanks,
Mike

[Bill Marcheck]

Mike, Woodcraft had a bag and manual pump on sale in their flyer in Oct or Nov. I don't remember the exact price, but it was pretty cheap if I remember correctly. Maybe someone else will have the exact price.

I had to laugh when I saw the manual pump in the sale flyer. That pump is made for evacuating air from partially filled wine bottles. The valve is the stopper for a wine bottle. VacuVin makes or at least sells them. Looks like you can get a pump and stopper for $9.95.


Bill

[Herb Blair]

Hi Herb,

Looking at eBay I'm not sure that I found the correct vacuum pump. The costs seem to be higher than the $45 you mentioned. Also, most seem to be for AC repair, not sure if they are one in the same.

Not sure if this breaks the SMC laws, so if not a link, can you provide your seach keywords for shopping for a pump on eBay?

Thanks,
/Kevin


Kevin,
Just have to keep an eye on them. Pump prices vary all over the place. You don't need a huge pump to do vacuum veenering. The AC repair pumps are OK, if you can find one that is reasonable. I watched EBAY for 2 months before I found one that I thought would fit my needs and I bought it new for $45. That may be the exception, but something to shoot for.

[Aaron Montgomery]

I'm working on my own JWW setup. I ordered a Gast pump from Surplus Center Here (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004120107060539&item=4-1540&catname=) for $90. I still don't have it up and running yet - I hope to work on it over the next few weeks. Just an FYI - this pump is 220V - not a big deal for me, but if you don't have 220V in your shop..

[Mike Scoggins]

I'm working on my own JWW setup. I ordered a Gast pump from Surplus Center Here (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004120107060539&item=4-1540&catname=) for $90. I still don't have it up and running yet - I hope to work on it over the next few weeks. Just an FYI - this pump is 220V - not a big deal for me, but if you don't have 220V in your shop..

Aaron,

Thanks for the link. Please let us know how the pump/system performs when you have it up and running.

Mike

[Keith Christopher]

for pumps you may also want to check grainger. They carry just about everything !

[jerry cousins]

mike - seems there are several resources for pumps - as others have posted. i bought mine through jww'r - he was having a special on them - but this was a year or 2 ago - think around $145.

jerry

[Bill Arnold]

I just completed building my vacuum bagging system for a total of about $140. Got a Robinair A/C vacuum pump from a friend for $60; he was downsizing to move onto his boat. Bought a few parts from Joe WW; vacuum controller, vacuum gauge, check valve and valve stem. Picked up PVC pipe and caps at Lowe's. The bag is a $6 shower curtain from Walmart. The pump is rated for continuous duty, but the switch will give it a much longer life.

Since finishing the system last week, I've only bagged one project -- a pair of tabletops. Resawed some cherry veneers, book-matched it and glued it to 3/4" MDF. I adjusted the vacuum controller to keep the vacuum between -16 and -21 in. and it works fine. In a commercial shop, I've seen successful vacuum pressing at as little as -8 in.

[Mike Scoggins]

Bill,

Thanks for the information on your system. I would have never thought that a shower curtain would work for a bag. I suspect that it won't last for an extended period of time/ large number of projects, but even if only lasts for a few projects, at $6 you've probably found a reasonably priced "disposable bag".

Thanks,
Mike

[Dave Avery]

Mike,

I have the Vacupress Compact 100 system (vacupress.com). It's a little more than $300 and saves you the trouble of making the system. I've been extremely happy with the results.


With respect to veneer costs, it depends on where you buy it. I've had great lick on Ebay (P-Mail me for a couple of sellers I've had great luck with). Expect to pay about $1 per sf for fairly figured veneer, between $1-3 per sf for extremely figured veneer. After figuring costs for substrates, glues, and veneer for both sides, it costs about 25% of the cost for comparable solid wood.

Happy to answer any specific questions you might have. Dave.

[Bill Arnold]

Bill,

Thanks for the information on your system. I would have never thought that a shower curtain would work for a bag. I suspect that it won't last for an extended period of time/ large number of projects, but even if only lasts for a few projects, at $6 you've probably found a reasonably priced "disposable bag".

Thanks,
Mike
I probably wouldn't have thought of a shower curtain, either. The friend I bought the pump from told me that's what he used. The shower curtain I have is fairly heavy. I tested it using an MDF base and caul to be sure it didn't tear out. It held up fine when I used it for the pair of tabletops I just did, although it really had a lot of strain on it. I left the pieces in the bag for about four hours and, when I took them out, the shower curtain drew back to its original condition. A guy at a shop I worked at for a while said he used large, commercial-quality trash bags from Sam's.

[Steve Evans]

I probably wouldn't have thought of a shower curtain, either. The friend I bought the pump from told me that's what he used. The shower curtain I have is fairly heavy. I tested it using an MDF base and caul to be sure it didn't tear out. It held up fine when I used it for the pair of tabletops I just did, although it really had a lot of strain on it. I left the pieces in the bag for about four hours and, when I took them out, the shower curtain drew back to its original condition. A guy at a shop I worked at for a while said he used large, commercial-quality trash bags from Sam's.

You know, that's what I love about forums like this. I've been obseessing for the last week, looking for good 30 gauge vinyl. I can find 20 mil locally, but 30 seems to be a rare beast around my parts. And now I find out that I could just use garbage bags, or if I really want to go upscale, some shower curtains.
:D . Thanks guys for all the information.

Steve

[Mike Swindell]

You can also try bags from http://www.tapeease.com/vacuum_bags.htm

I have never bought from them but the zip lock feature is appealing. Other have also bought bag material from boat upholstery shops, they use the vinyl
for windows. Even though people have used everything from garbage bags to shower curtains, spending an extra $25-50 for a durable bag seems well spent.

Our friends at Harbor Freight also have a vacuum checker for auto's that pulls 25in of hg which is more than enough for your application. I got a Gast pump from work for free and plan to use it for both veneering and clamping. If you go the Gast or any continuous duty pump you don't need a resevoir as the pump operates continuously. However you can build a reservoir for ~ $10, this allows any leaks to take pressure from the reservoir and the pump won't be running continuously.

My Gast pump makes virtually no noise, I think it's a 1CFM, but from reports you'll pull a vacuum on a 24x36" panel in minutes. No need for fro the high CFM units. Here's the link to their webpage specs. http://www.gastmfg.com/pdf/General%20catalog/C-10-02-03.pdf

Good luck

[Mike Swindell]

I found this on Ebay, looks like a great deal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67234&item=3857984897&rd=1

[Mike Scoggins]

Dave,


With respect to veneer costs, it depends on where you buy it. I've had great lick on Ebay (P-Mail me for a couple of sellers I've had great luck with). Expect to pay about $1 per sf for fairly figured veneer, between $1-3 per sf for extremely figured veneer. After figuring costs for substrates, glues, and veneer for both sides, it costs about 25% of the cost for comparable solid wood.

Thanks for the information regarding veneering costs. If and when I get a system I may take you up on the offer and contact you regarding sellers on eBay.


Mike,

Thanks for the tips, leads, and links.

All,

This thread has really been helpful to me. Thanks to all who have provided input. :)

Mike

[Herb Blair]

You know, that's what I love about forums like this. I've been obseessing for the last week, looking for good 30 gauge vinyl. I can find 20 mil locally, but 30 seems to be a rare beast around my parts. And now I find out that I could just use garbage bags, or if I really want to go upscale, some shower curtains.
:D . Thanks guys for all the information.

Steve
The 30 gauge vinyl is available from Rochfordsupply http://www.rochfordsupply.com
for about 8.45/yard. The material is 54" wide. They have excellent service.

[Bill Arnold]

You know, that's what I love about forums like this. I've been obseessing for the last week, looking for good 30 gauge vinyl. I can find 20 mil locally, but 30 seems to be a rare beast around my parts. And now I find out that I could just use garbage bags, or if I really want to go upscale, some shower curtains.
:D . Thanks guys for all the information.
Steve
LOL -- Yeah, well I'm not saying the shower curtain is the best way to go, but it feels like it's about 10 mils, it's cheap and I can make a few of different sizes as necessary. Also, when doing a lamination against a large form (curved apron, for example), I'd think nothing of cutting a $6 shower curtain to fit -- wouldn't want to start slicing up more expensive material for that application.

Regards,

[Garnet Foster]

I bought one of the kits online and it worked fine for me but I noticed that you have to press the thick black tape they provided for sealing firmly down and check it for air pathways through the tape. Held fine for me. Only problem I had was opening the tape seal. Figured it out after a while. The bag I bought is shaped to fit a skate board deck but I think they also have a square bag. The kit probably would not work for any big projects but worked fine for the chair I am working on.

[Per Swenson]

Hi,
I have a freind who owns a large hvac business, He
gave me the pump for sevices rendered. Information
is off the joe woodworker site. I bought 20mil vinly at the local
fabric store. The key is the HH66 vinyl cement. If you round off
everthing, platten etc. It will reduce the chance of leaks.
Also I use plain fiberglass bug screen between the veneer and the top platten.
This bag has been used weekly for the last year. No problems.
I am a pack rat and most of the materials to construct this,
I all ready had. So its silly for me to guess at cost.
Good deals on ebay veneers. I have three that are honest with
excellent quality. You can PM me for their names.
I hope this helps.
Per

[Garnet Foster]

The pumps you guys are using look pretty big for what you seem to be pressing. Why not use a miniature, low volume, high HG pump that can run continuous like the ones sold by KNF. Do you need all the tank and stuff if the pump is rated to run all day?

[Bill Arnold]

The pumps you guys are using look pretty big for what you seem to be pressing. Why not use a miniature, low volume, high HG pump that can run continuous like the ones sold by KNF. Do you need all the tank and stuff if the pump is rated to run all day?
Garnet,

Many of us who have built our own vacuum bagging system purchase a pump from a surplus outlet or pawn shop for pennies on the dollar. These are generally the type of pump used to evacuate an A/C system and can run for several hours. Some of us add a vacuum-controlled switch so the pump doesn't have to run all the time, thus increasing the life of the pump. If the bag itself seals well, there is no need for the pump to run continuously.

What is the cost of a KNF vacuum pump? Are you affiliated with them?

Regards,

[lou sansone]

my 02.


I agree with herb and bill arnold. I have a similar home made set up.

for the vinyl, If you can find a boat yard that makes waterproof covers for boats, they have the 20 or 30 mil stuff. it was about 100 bucks for enought to to 2 8 foot bag and have some left over for patches and liners. I use the plastic pipe and roll up the end around it. no leaks
lou

[Bill Arnold]

To help distribute the air flow around the bag so an even pressure is placed at all points, I got a roll of 'pet proof' screen material. Standard plastic screen material seemed a bit fragile to me, but the heavier stuff works well. I got a roll at the borg, but I'm sure other suppliers have it as well.

[Garnet Foster]

Garnet,

Many of us who have built our own vacuum bagging system purchase a pump from a surplus outlet or pawn shop for pennies on the dollar. These are generally the type of pump used to evacuate an A/C system and can run for several hours. Some of us add a vacuum-controlled switch so the pump doesn't have to run all the time, thus increasing the life of the pump. If the bag itself seals well, there is no need for the pump to run continuously.

What is the cost of a KNF vacuum pump? Are you affiliated with them?

Regards,
I only wish. My introduction to veneering was with a kit I bought online that works well but now that I have had a tast of the process I am thinking of stepping up to a larger system. I have been looking at the pumps you guys have built, they are all great but they take up a lot of shop space that I do not have. So I looked around and there are about a dozen manufacturers of small/miniature low volume/high hg pumps. I found one retail company/woodworker who uses this type of pump and he seemed to think they work great. I like to know if anyone else has tried one.
Is all the tubing, check valves and tanks necessary if you can buy a pump that runs forever under load?

[Bill Arnold]

... So I looked around and there are about a dozen manufacturers of small/miniature low volume/high hg pumps. I found one retail company/woodworker who uses this type of pump and he seemed to think they work great. I like to know if anyone else has tried one.
Is all the tubing, check valves and tanks necessary if you can buy a pump that runs forever under load?
Garnet,

Using a pump that can run continuously, I suppose you could get by with running a tube straight from the pump to the bag and be done with it. It's easy to tell when enough vacuum has been achieved to accomplish a specific task.

You mention a 'low volume/high hg' pump. What is the CFM rating of the pump you have in mind? If the CFM is too low, the glue could set before the bag is evacuated.

On the 'high hg' side of the matter, what is the rating of the pump? Some people believe you MUST achieve a vacuum of more than -25"hg. I have my system set to keep the vacuum between -15 and -20 which has been enough for everything from flat panels to a bentwood lamination with a 29" radius.

My position would still be to install a vacuum switch even with a pump rated for constant operation. After a bag has been evacuated, the pump should run only a few seconds every minute or so. Even if the pump is rated for constant operation, it has an estimated lifetime; running it less will make it last longer.

Regards,

[Herb Blair]

I use two pieces of mdf, each with a piece of plastic laminate attached to one face, the other face is scored on the table saw on a 1" grid, about 1/8" deep.
This provides an escape path for the air. I used a 1/4" round over bit to ease the edges, and I rounded the corners so as not to provide any sharp points to the bag material.
As I mentioned in my previous post, Rochford Supply sells the bag material at about 8.50 per yard. The material is 54" wide x 36" per yard. so you can easily make a very large bag by folding it over and sealing with HH66 vinyl cement. Joe woodworker site has all the info and the valve to connect the pump.
In use, I found that the end sealing method described on the JWW site works, but requires a lot of clamps. I use about 10 clamps to seal it, and once sealed and pumped down, the pump hardly every kicks back on overnight.