Fnishing pine dark - Help!

[Dan Ondro]

I am about to pick up a pine table. It is a Southern Pine (so I was told) and is definitely harder than the knotty pine furniture I already have. We are replacing a rubberwood table which is stained very dark, and my wife wants a nice dark stain on the pine as well, with a touch of red. I do not have to match the current table, we're just trying to get a deep stain on the pine.

I do not have spraying equipment, and therefore need to stick to brush or wipe on stains. Here is what I was thinking:

0. Apply a pre-stain conditioner (water based!)
1. Sand the table with 220
2. Use a india ink wash to darken the table (50/50)
3. sand with 180, then 220 again
4. apply a water based wipe on stain in a cherry or red mahogany colour (Was going to say Minwax, but from reading the forum that sounds like a dirty word!)
5. sand 220, stain again
6. repeat 5 until desired colour
7. Use a spray lacquer or polycrylic to get a glossy finish, 3 or 4 thin coats (important!)

I'm also considering using the VanDyke colorFX dye fom WoodEssence.com along with Bartley Gel stain in Georgian Cherry, but I've never worked with dyes and I'm not sure if they can even be brushed on.

Ideas?

[Prashun Patel]

If it were me, I'd use an aniline dye to stain the pine. It'll blotch less and give you more control on the depth of color.

A good place to start is Transtint. They can be mixed.

The problem with the Minwax stains is that they have binders that seal in the pigment, and seal OUT (increasingly) successive coats. This can be frustrating if trying to achieve a super dark color.

I believe staining/sanding repeatedly will actually highlight the blotch, not even the tone.

My schedule would be:

Sponge water. Let dry. Knock down grain.
Sponge Dye (in water @ 2%). Repeat until depth of color achieved (when wet.
Spray dewaxed shellac barrier coat.
Light sand with 220 or 320.
Top coats.

[David Thompson 27577]

I'm sort of with Shawn on this one. Transtint dyes are great.

Like Shawn said, you'll want to raise the grain first, and sand it down. Then apply the dye --either by sponging it on, or with a spritz bottle.

But I have had good luck eliminating blotches by sanding lightly (220) after the dye had dried. If another round of dye is needed, then add it, and sand lightly again.

And yes, water-based lacquers like Polycrylic are good. Use lots of thin coats, and block-sand for smoothness.

[Scott Holmes]

Prestain conditioner will reduce the amount of color (darkness) you can achieve with dye and stain. Dye does not seal the wood; stains do... so do, prestain conditioners.

Dark dye (Shawns tip about the wet color; is the color you will get is good advice) Dyes tend to look very bad after they dry...seal coat of shellac will bring the color back.

[Dan Ondro]

Ok, so my revised schedule looks like this:

1) Sponge wet (Now, should it be damp, or wet or soaked?)
2) After drying, sand to knock down grain (220 or 180?)
3) Sponge dye (2% dye in water solution) until desired colour when wet (how long should I wait between coats? should I sand between coats?)
4) Spray shellac coat (How important is using de-waxed? The only one I can find locally is Zinsser, which isn't de-waxed...)
5) 3 or 4 thin coats of polycrylic, light sanding between coats.

Thanks everyone for all your help!

[Scott Holmes]

Here's my comments by line number...

1. DAMP.

2. I say no. Not needed at all, I don't pre-raise the grain, nor do I sand after applying dye. Water will indeed raise the grain; shellac will lock it in place, then after a few coats of your water-borne finish you can sand it flat and any little whiskers, still standing will be easily sanded away.

3. I spray my dyes (more control, no wiping either)) and I use denatured alcohol instead of water. Water is a bit easier when you are learning.

4. Polycrylic will not stick to shellac that still has the wax in it. Zinsser does make 2 dewaxed shellacs. The aerosol can and the seal coat are both de-waxed shellac.

5. Water-borne Polycrylic may need 3-4 coats. Lacquer may need 4-6 coats.
Neither are the best choice for a heavy use table... a HARD non-poly varnish would be better. I say NO to any type of polyurethane varnish on a table it's for floors period..

[John McClanahan]

Scott, for a hard non-poly varnish, what would you suggest?

John

[Steve Schoene]

Try either Behlen Rockhard or Waterlox Original (in three sheens)

[Dan Ondro]

After reading about behlen's RockHard, I'm completely sold on the product. However, I am having a hell of a time finding it. The nearest listed distributor is in London (2 hours away), which is a pain to find out as I was in London yesterday, to pick up the table, and I'm not looking forward to another 4 hour round trip just to get varnish, and I can't find an online distributor that will ship to Canada.

On the other hand I don't want to use an inferior product, especially after learning that poly varnish isn't nearly as water resistant as phenolic, like Rock Hard. Also saw some pictures of Rock Hard and love the finish.

Grumble grumble grumble.

[Prashun Patel]

Try Waterlox or Pratt and Lambert #38. They're also well respected men about town.

[Dan Ondro]

Huzzah! A paint store in town has the PL 38 in stock and everything, will pick some up tomorrow, though I'm still in the getting everything ready phase. Now from what I'm reading the PL won't be as glossy as the RockHard, but it can be buffed to a higher gloss. Any tips on how I should go about that? I may not need it, but if I throw 7 coats of PL on the table and the wife wants it glossier... :P

So newly revised schedule:

1. Dampen wood, let dry, sand 220
2. Sponge dye (repeat until desired colour when wet)
3. sand 320, zinsser spray shellac
4. light sand 320, PL 38 (repeat 5-7 times)

Let cure for ~1 week before moving it into the house. Sound about right?

Thanks so much to everyone! I am overwhelmed by the speed and volume of the support in this forum. Absolutely tremendous. I owe all of you a beer, at least!

[Prashun Patel]

Rubbing out or polishing to a high gloss will require letting the varnish cure for several weeks, then using abrasives to do the buffing. The magic in this is letting it cure for a good long time.

This doesn't mean you have to wait that long to USE the table, just to begin the rub out process.

Just beware that it's not the easiest thing in the world to polish a table to a high gloss. Most varnish applications will benefit from a rubbing out - both in look and feel. However, I suggest you just be meticulous about your coats (leveling, cleaning, letting dry dust-free as possible) and you might find that you like it fine without the rub out.

Take all of *MY* advice with a grain of salt; I'm just a hobbyist who happens to like finishing and experimenting. Scott, Howie, Steve, et al are the experts.

[Scott Holmes]

Dan,

revised list:

1. Dampen wood, let dry, sand 220
2. Sponge dye (repeat until desired colour when wet)
3. NO sanding with 320, zinsser spray shellac 2 light coats
4. NO sanding until you have a coat or 2 of P&L #38.
5. Sand with 320 with a backer block between coats to get it FLAT. (repeat 3-6 times) Don't use a ROS they tend to cause waves...

Gloss will highlight EVERY flaw, Satin will hide most flaws.

Flat and smooth are not the same... a baby's bottom is smooth; not so flat.

Let cure for ~4 weeks before buffing it.

FYI P&L #38 is my favorite alkyd resin/soya oil varnish, hard and clear.

[Dan Ondro]

Thanks Scott! I'll be starting as soon as my dyes arrive, which could be tomorrow. I'll update here and hpefully have pictures to post soon...

Thanks again!

[Jim Becker]

If you are going to use water for grain-raise, best results come from using distilled water as many water supplies have a lot of different kinds of minerals that potentially could affect the finishing process. Since you don't use very much, a single gallon of distilled water will last a LONG time. (if you keep the container closed tightly... ;) )

[Dan Ondro]

I was thinking about that last night. I definitely don't want to use local tap water, as it's liable to disintegrate my table! :D

Then I thought, if I'm going to buy distilled water, why not just switch to denatured alcohol for my dye base, and then I won't have the grain-raising issue anyway.

I'm a little apprehensive about the alcohol, though I'm not sure what the difference is, really. I'll probably just get a gallon of distilled water and stick to the plan as above.

[David Thompson 27577]

............ I thought, if I'm going to buy distilled water, why not just switch to denatured alcohol for my dye base, and then I won't have the grain-raising issue anyway.........

Although alcohol will not raise the grain, when you buy transtint dyes, they are a liquid.

And I have used them in alcohol. And they raise the grain. Maybe not quite as much as water, but you still need to sand.

But note that the light sanding that is needed after a grain raising is quick and simple.

[Prashun Patel]

The problem I've had with using alcohol as a base is that it dries so super fast, it's easy to get lap marks if you paint or sponge it on. I've had better luck (and I mean the ONE time I did it) spraying it.

Also, it's interesting to note that alcohol will absorb about 5% of its weight in water from the air. I'm guessing this is what accounts for the grain raising that occurs with this and even with shellac. This I know frm my work as a perfume formulator.

If you really want to eliminate grain raising, you have to use a solvent that's not going to absorb water, but that will be soluble to the aniline dye. Those aren't as easy to find.

All this is academic, though, IMHO. I agree w everyone else that grain raising is no big deal and easily removed.