ungloat :-(

[Bob Riefer]

Awhile back I had posted a jet cabinet saw that I "purchased" for $1300. In the end, finances dictate that this $1300 would be the only money I could spend on tool acquisition for quite awhile, so we made the decision to step away from that deal. boooooooo

But, it opens the opportunity to bargain shop on a whole new level.

For example, today I'm going to pick this up:
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/1795078754.html (http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/1795078754.html)

So, it sort of sucks, but at the same time I'm excited at the challenge of outfitting the entire shop instead of just one tool.

Anyways, so my question at the end of this story is: I'm usually of the mindset of buying absolute top quality ONCE. And now I'm taking the approach that may cause me to buy some items TWICE over the course of time to upgrade some equipment as my skills grow and require it. Do you think with a hobby like woodworking that this "upgrade later" approach is a good one?

[Terry Beadle]

IMO it's always better to grow into your tools. However, you can't grow with out some tools. Each tool has it's lessons to teach. The Japanese don't let an apprentice have any tools that he is not ready to learn. Lucky we aren't in Japan in the 12th century ! Hoot!

I think that drill press will be a great boon. Lots of lessons there to enjoy. Especially milling and mortising. Making drill press jigs, and the like should give you a great time and add quite a bit to your wood working projects.

It's the process not the product as they say.

Good Luck and enjoy the shavings !

[Troy Turner]

Bob -

As much as I'd love to go out and buy top quality tools...I don't. Probably could, but even for as much as I do as a hobbiest, still couldn't justify it. I bargain shop for my tools...CL, thrifty nickel, stuff like that. Bought my Craftsman T/S a couple years ago. Fella I bought it from bought it new...in 1982. So I look at that as a good deal seein how it's lasted this long and will last me quite a few more years.

[Neil Brooks]

It's probably NOT the best approach.

Being WEALTHY would be a much better approach.

But .... we make do with what we can ... without stressing ourselves too much, or stretching our wallets too much.

Charles Neil could make EXQUISITE furniture in MY shop.

On the other hand, I could turn out pure crap in his ;)

Enjoy your purchases. Use them to learn their strengths and weaknesses while you do. You'll be a better informed consumer if/when it IS time to upgrade !

[Prashun Patel]

Don't sweat it. Buy what feels right - whether it's the 'best' or the 'best-for-the-buck'. Do yr research. There are plenty of budget tools that are not a waste - new and used.

[Bill LaPointe]

I have been accumulating tools for more than 50 years. I have rarely bought new. I was in the surplus and pawn shop business for many years. (Still in the pawn shops) There are a huge number of real bargains if you are not in a big rush. The pure joy of finding a "deal" is worth every bit of the wait! The nice thing is you can buy a piece of equipment, use it and learn from it, and sell it for at least what you paid for it when a better machine comes along. This approach does require you to become educated about the features and working of the tool you might be looking for. Also lets you learn about the maintenance and repair of the tools you own. I enjoy tinkering with my machinery every bit as much as actually using them to build with. Over time you will find that you will have a high dollar shop with very little cash spent.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Anyways, so my question at the end of this story is: I'm usually of the mindset of buying absolute top quality ONCE. And now I'm taking the approach that may cause me to buy some items TWICE over the course of time to upgrade some equipment as my skills grow and require it. Do you think with a hobby like woodworking that this "upgrade later" approach is a good one?

I never ever buy a tool that I think I'll outgrow unless space or budget dictate otherwise. (I've done that, but not on purpose) I buy tools that I can grow into, not out of.
.

[Cary Falk]

Upgrading sucks because you loose money. That being said, If I didn't buy some of my first tools that I have now upgraded I would probably not know what features I wanted in my final tool. I would have probably not made half of the stuff I have made because I was waiting for money to buy the very beast tool. I do think needs change as you progress. You could have spent $2K on a PM66 when you started out, and then find out you want to make cabinets and sell it off for a slider. I try not to sweat the upgrades too much.

[Joe Jensen]

Upgrading doesn't have to mean you lose money. When I started this hobby I had a lot less money so I was forced to bargan hunt for used tools. I think I've made money on every used tool I later sold. Had I been seduced by shiny new paint on entry level tools I'd have lost a ton of money.

I am pretty handy mechanically, but then tools are really simple mechanically. If you buy a drill press for $150 and you need to tear it down to rebuild, just use a digital camera to document every step of disassembly. Also now days you have the internet and lots of experience folks willing to answer questions when you get stuck. 25 years ago when I bought my first used jointer and used 1/2" spindle shaper I had no internet to look to for help :(

The plus for me of finding a good deal on used, and then fixing up, is a big dose of pride.

[Darnell Hagen]

Do you think with a hobby like woodworking that this "upgrade later" approach is a good one?

I'm not a fan of buying the same thing twice, myself.

Are you saying you think you may want to upgrade if you buy the drill press? That Walker Turner is more of a machine than anything available new at that price level. You're starting at the top of the range as far as I'm concerned. The only upgrage I can see is maybe going to an 18", or finding a Walker Turner radial drill (legendary).

Looks like it's missing a belt cover, or maybe a slo-speed attachment, though.

[Steve Bracken]

Upgrading sucks because you loose money. That being said, If I didn't buy some of my first tools that I have now upgraded I would probably not know what features I wanted in my final tool. I would have probably not made half of the stuff I have made because I was waiting for money to buy the very beast tool. I do think needs change as you progress. You could have spent $2K on a PM66 when you started out, and then find out you want to make cabinets and sell it off for a slider. I try not to sweat the upgrades too much.

Nah ... ya don't have to lose money when you upgrade. It's often possible to even make a little, I have :)

OTOH, if you buy new, from a retail outlet, then upgrade ..... losing money is the price you will pay.

[Darnell Hagen]

Slo-Speed :

http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=7985

One other thing, W-T liked to use goofy bearings. For the asking price it's probably worth the risk, but you may want to do some homework before you pull the quill apart.

[Ross Canant]

For $1300, I think you can do much better than a Jet tablesaw. Keep your eyes open for an older Unisaw or PM66.

[Walt Nicholson]

It seems for the most part that woodworking (unless it is a daily job that is the main source of income) goes through a lot of evolution. A lot of folks (me included) start out feeling a need to fill the new shop with all the tools we can affford on an immediate basis. As time goes on we find a certain area of woodworking that we really like and many of the tools we originally bought sit idle and are never used. If we turn to furniture making we are the guy on CL with the "barely used, like new" lathe for sale, or the "like new table saw" if we really get into turning. Sometimes it makes sense to start with some used tools first, find what direction your main interest is heading and work your way up to some of the better "lifetime" tools for that area. Hand tools on the other hand are a little different as cheap or used/abused saws, planes, etc. can create lots of frustration and drive a person away from the Neander side in a hurry and cause them to miss out on some of the true joys of woodworking. As mentioned in earlier posts, take it slow and look for those bargains.

[Kurt Cady]

Hey Bob, looks like a used uni might be up for sale soon. In Philly no less

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=142718

[Dave MacArthur]

Exactly what I was going to say! Member selling Uni, link above. Selling some other stuff maybe too, 1 1/2 hp shaper, Delta DJ20 8" jointer? PERFECT timing!

[Bruce Volden]

Well, OK, I have to chime in here!! I'm an older,retired, poor feller living on a fixed income. That being said I can only afford the [/U]best[/U]! One time good deal. I learned this over several decades of "compromising" having started out with the Sears stuff back in the 70's. Like anything else in life you yearn for, considerations have to be made, ie: upgrade in the future or do things right the first time. In the end quality ALWAYS matters. ;)

Bruce

[glenn bradley]

Do you think with a hobby like woodworking that this "upgrade later" approach is a good one?

After having the experience this entails I do not believe it is "a good one". However, it is a "real one".

I bought a contractor saw and a bandsaw for $180 to start. I did this because I did not know whether I would stay with the hobby or not. Had I not stayed with it, I would have been out a few bucks after re-selling the starter tools so, that could have been good.

It is hard to objectively strike a balance between getting the most bang for your buck and spending too much on an item that you know will be replaced. As it turns out I threw way too much money at my contractor saw.

I was trying to make it something it was not (avoid this). I had it so dialed in by the time I realized I could improve it no further, that it made a good saw for my dad who got it for much less than I had put into it. I chalk this up as a good deal for him and a learning experience for me.

On the bandsaw I managed to control myself and only buy Cool Blocks and Timberwolf blades (really good ideas). Also an "inexpensive" mobile base (bad idea, gave it away when I sold the saw).

In a nutshell; pick and choose carefully and don't overspend on a starter tool if you can help it. Remember this is a hobby and hobbies cost money (I'm still way ahead of my "I'm gonna learn to golf" fiasco). Try to buy starter tools with the idea that you are going to sell this thing after a period of use. The loss (if any) could realistically be thought of as rent and the things you learn will help immensely as you make decisions on future purchases.

[Dave Lehnert]

It's easy to say after you have been in the hobby for years to give the advice "Buy the best tools you can afford" But when you start out new in a hobby there is no way you are going to spend over $3,000 just for your table saw.
Buying cheaper tools and learning from them is just part of the process.

[Greg Scull]

I don't have much experience to stand on as I am new to woodworking this year. That said... I have a perfectly functional Delta/Rockwell contractors saw w/ Unifence/rail, HFDC unit with 4&6" ducting, Craftsman jointer ( not happy with this one paid 55$), Grizzly bandsaw, and Delta 12" planer. I havent spent over 150$ on any of the machines, and I'm not into any of them for over 250. I'm still learning and building mostly for the shop but I do know that I can sell each and every one of these tools for what I have paid should I want to upgrade.

[Bobby Buff Jr]

Having been laid off twice since May '09, I decided to start building stuff that I could sell. I had some tools, but needed others. Craigslist has been a big help. I have bought a Rikon planer/jointer and a Delta contractors table saw. The planer was a couple hundred below new, the table saw was absolutely right. I drove 150 miles one way to get it. It needed a little rust removal from the table and a new blade or 2 and I was good to go.

I will say I have been just a little late an several pieces of equipment that I wanted, but I work under the theory that if I didnt get that one it's because a better deal is around the corner.

The estate sale my wife and I went to a few weeks back where I picked up 58 router bits for $100 had a jet cabinet saw with table wings on both sides. I dont know the model, but its looked nearly new. Price was $750. I dont have the space and I have a couple of other pieces I need worse that that saw for the $750, but I am pretty sure it was a heck of a deal.

I just keep looking and I have a buddy in the Houston area that does the same , he knows what I am needing and he is looking as well.

A little time and searching and $1300 can buy a bunch of good equipment

[David Cefai]

Glenn Bradley said " The loss (if any) could realistically be thought of as rent".

This seems to me to be the always overlooked point in these discussions.

I started out with a corded drill which served me for a long time (still does actually). When I realised I needed to drill more accurately I bought a stand for it.

When I decided I wanted to do "real" fine(ish) woodworking I soon realised I needed a drill press, at which point LOML pointed me towards the tool shop and pushed.

Ditto for the saw. The "machine table" with a circular saw mounted in it served me for a couple of years. That enabled me to make an informed decision about what I wanted next. The 150 euros or so I spent on the table and (50% discounted) 7" saw are partly depeciation, partly learning fees and I still have a tool I can easily take to the beach house whan I need to.

Of course woodworking is an income "sink" for me. If it were my source I would have a different mind set.

[Chip Lindley]

There is the "buy once, cry once" philosophy...IF...you have lots of ready cash. That is not the case for most. If we buy a lemon tool, we learn from the experience. I learned in the '70s that Sears TS's were not that wonderful--especially the fences. A real joke, infact. I bought a Rockwell Model 10 TS in bad need of refurb, and made it shine again. I used that CS for many years with very satisfactory results. By the time I acquired it, I knew what I wanted, and how to tune and adjust to make it happen!

One does not necessisarily have to buy twice when it's a bargain. Some bargains need more TLC than others. Some are plug n play. Refurbing becomes it's own interest, separate and apart from woodworking.

I simply could never afford the nice machines I have now, at shiny new retail prices. When i consider many were bought for .50, .25, or even .10 cents on the dollar, I consider myself very blessed indeed. There is much quality still inside old machinery. One must know how best to bring it back to the surface for his edification and ultimate woodworking enjoyment! Buy at the Right Price, and don't Cry at All!

[Michael MacDonald]

Bob... I think the key is knowing the difference--whichever way you go. So be content with the choice you made because you knew the tradeoff and made the decision with your eyes open.