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Bob Weisner
11-29-2004, 12:46 PM
Hi:

I was putting in some kitchen cabinets last week and had to put in a new electric outlet. I ran new wire for the new outlet , but I have a question about the old electric outlet:

The old and I do mean OLD!! electric outlet was replaced because everytime i would plug something into it , sparks would fly out of the outlet! The old wiring has some sort of cloth fabric around the wiring.The wire is also frayed (SP)? quite a bit. It is not like today's modern wire. I capped off the old wire .Should I try to remove all of it from the wall or just box it in and cover the old outlet opening?

Thanks.

Bob

Chris Padilla
11-29-2004, 1:35 PM
Bob,

I think the first step is to make sure it is completely dead--i.e. zero chance for any current to run through it for the rest of its life and this includes the end you see in the kitchen and any other spot along its path that someone might want to splice into (for some strange reason). Only then will it be safe to cap and cover over and pretend like it never existed...I think.

I'm sure the NEC has codes for this but I've no clue what they might be.... :)

Rob Russell
11-29-2004, 1:36 PM
A couple of things:

Unless you are going to totally pull the wire from the wall, cap it and leave it in a covered, but accessible, box. You can't cap live wires and bury them in a box that you can't get to.

You can "abandon" wire by cutting it closer to the feeding source, leaving the abandoned wire in place and capping the live wire in a junction box. I believe that you're supposed to tag the wire as abandoned (both ends?). If not code, it's certainly good practice.

I'm assuming that the new receptacle is a small appliance / kitchen counter receptacle. If that assumption is correct, your new circuit must be:
20 amp which means #12 NM (Romex)
GFCI-protected
dedicated to the kitchen (not shared with anything else).

If not, you need to redo it to be code compliant.

Rob

Jim Becker
11-29-2004, 1:39 PM
What Rob said. BTW, the wire sounds like "early Romex"...I have some in this house, although it's in good condition. The cover was more cloth-based, rather than today's plastic material.

Bob Weisner
11-29-2004, 2:12 PM
Hi:

We had the house rewired about 7 years ago. There was only a 60 amp fuse box for the whole house. They had 2 fuses in the box , 30 amp each. Updated to 200 amp service. 100 amp upper and 100 amp lower. One thiing I don't understand is that the computer was supposed to be on a seperate cercuit. When I turned the power off that feeds to the outlet I was working on, The computer went off too.

Bob

Randy Meijer
11-29-2004, 2:12 PM
You should probably should give some thought to hiring an electrician to inspect your entire electrical system. Can't be sure if your "sparky" box was due to bad wire or a bad receptacle; but if the wire covering was starting to deteriorate at that box, you may have problems elsewhere as well. The "cloth" wire that I have seen is associated with a "rubber" type insulation rather than the newer plastic stuff. The rubber stuff ages and gets brittle and cracks quite easily. For piece of mind, I would want to be sure the rest of the wiring in the home was in good shape!!!

Rob Russell
11-29-2004, 4:41 PM
Hi:

We had the house rewired about 7 years ago. There was only a 60 amp fuse box for the whole house. They had 2 fuses in the box , 30 amp each. Updated to 200 amp service. 100 amp upper and 100 amp lower. One thiing I don't understand is that the computer was supposed to be on a seperate cercuit. When I turned the power off that feeds to the outlet I was working on, The computer went off too.

Bob

If the computer is plugged into a small appliance receptacle in your kitchen, that does make sense.

If the computer is in another room, it doesn't make sense. I can't speak to the '96 NEC (likely the code level in place at the time of your rewire 7 years ago), but I don't believe that the requirement for dedicated small appliance outlets and circuits in the kitchen was new with the '99 NEC. That would imply to me that your whole house wasn't brought up to the then current code as part of the rewire, but that they just did a panel swap.

Bob Weisner
11-29-2004, 4:54 PM
They swaped the old electric panel for a new one. The room where the computer is, used to be the original dining room . They put in a new outlet for both the computer and the fax machine. Supposed to be on a seperate line. It's not. It is somehow connected to the kitchen line. Got all sorts of different style of wire in the house. New wire, old wire like I mentioned before and some sort of metal corregated wire. That metal wire is upstairs in the living room walls.

Bob

Rob Russell
11-29-2004, 5:25 PM
Bob,

Well, regardless of what was there, you should really concern yourself with what you put in. I'd suggest reviewing the 3 points in my earlier post and check what you installed to make sure it's code-compliant.

Rob

Pat Monahan
11-30-2004, 1:10 AM
Bob
If you are uncertain about electrical code, check out the book section of your local big box. I picked up the "Ontario Electrical Code Simplified" at HD for about ten bucks - code rules, code rules translated into language we can understand, and plenty of wiring diagrams and illustrations of the rules all in one book. When I gutted & remodelled my basement, I used this as a "how-to" reference. The electrical inspector gave me the thumbs up. You might be able to get a similar refernce for your jurisdiction. I would be really concerned over the sparks from the receptacle, and making very sure that your repair met code. If there was something amiss, and if there was a fire, your insurance company could deny your claim. Something we don't want to think about, but ...
Pat

Steve Stube
11-30-2004, 4:16 AM
Most important to me would be to determine the reason for the sparks. As Randy said, is it the wire or possible only a faulty receptacle. Isolate the problem is the first step. This can be accomplished without power connected to this circuit and is safer to do it with the breaker pulled or wire disconnected from the breaker.

As for Robs 3 bullet points, I agree with the first - 20 amp receptacles, #12 wire. I do believe that GFCI is required for receptacles within 32" (IIRC the number of inches) of an accessible water supply. I'm not aware of the code requiring GFCI on circuits or receptacles nowhere near a water source in a kitchen (countertop or not). Code requires at least 2 separate 20 amp circuits in a kitchen. Its been that way for a long time. Dedicated, maybe that is a requirement today that two circuits be dedicated but it is not uncommon for today's kitchens to have more than two circuits to provide for the modern conveniences available and I do not believe that the third, forth and fifth circuit need be dedicated to the kitchen only.

If you have any doubt about how to check out your particular installation by all means contact a licensed electrician to do this work for you. Remember that advice given on a public forum runs the gamut from priceless to just what you paid for it.

Rob Russell
11-30-2004, 10:34 AM
210.8(A)(6) Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel, Dwelling Units, (6)"Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces."

210.52(B)(1)Dwelling Unit Receptacles, Small Appliance, Receptacle Outlets Served. "In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the ... small appliance outlets ... shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets ..."
210.52(B)(2)No Other Outlets. "The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets."

My interpretation of 210.8(A)(6) is that all kitchen counter receptacles must be GFCI-protected, regardless of proximity to water.

My interpretation of 210.52 is that all of the small-appliance circuits may serve any of the rooms listed in 210.52(B)(1). If Bob's circuit was installed to serve a kitchen and dining room - that would have been fine (as it was when originally installed). If the room that was a dining room is now a den, any circuit should be dead-ended where it feeds from the kitchen into the den and a new supply provided from the panel or another room not listed in 210.52(B)(1). That should have been done as part of the construction effort when the new dining room was created. It sounds like you told the electricians to do that but they didn't and they likely violated your local codes if they tapped into the kitchen circuit to feed the new receptacle. I say "likely" because there may be an amendment in your jurisdiction's application of the NEC but - and this is a guess - I'd say the chances of your area changing that specific part of the code are pretty low.

I do agree with Steve's comment about internet electrical advice.

Rob (unlicensed, amateur, homeowner electrican).