Dovetail Saw recommendations

[Roy Lindberry]

What do you guys recommend for a good dovetail saw?

The only thing I currently have is a 6" Crown Gent's saw (17 TPI) that my dad gave me. If that's a decent saw, then perhaps it's just my technique, but I'm not very happy with the ease or cleanness of cut.

Ideally, I'd love to purchase Cosman's dovetail saw, but at this point that is way out of my price range. I'd like to know if there is something else I can be looking for at yard sales and shops around town. What do ya'll use, and what can I expect to pay for it?

[John Coloccia]

The set of 3 Veritas saws is pretty much a slam dunk in terms of quality and price. I initially choose the LV because I found the LN saw handle to be a little constrictive. I was very pleasantly surprised at the quality of the Veritas saws. Even if you purchase the saws individually, they're a great value and top notch quality. Cosman makes the Cadillac of saws. I don't personally like a progressive pitch, and I simply prefer a more traditional saw. If you like Rob's saw, you certainly can't go wrong there.

If you want to spend $100 or more, there are lots of great saws out there from smaller makers.

re: the Crown

Unless it's been fixed, which it surely hasn't, every one of those "Gent's" saws I've seen are a basket case out of the box. They need to be sharpened and the teeth need to be set. If you do that, the Crown will cut pretty well. It will never be a nice as a nice saw, though, and a pistol grip offers far more control for most people over the straight handle.

[Jim Koepke]

My first suggestion would be to try and find someone who will let you test drive a few saws. If one of the woodworking tool shows comes to town then go.

My recollection is that you are in Northern Washington. Maybe next time a tool show comes to Seattle or Port Townsend you can check it out.

My second suggestion would be to research saw sharpening at vintagesaws.com or Norsewoodsmith to name a few. You may be able to get a bit better service out of what you have until you find what you want.

My feeling is the progressive pitch is easy when first learning to use a saw, but becomes a drawback later. Other experience has lead me to believe the feel of the saw in your hand is almost as important to the finished job as the quality of the sharpening. In other words, it doesn't matter if the handle is wood or engineered, if one feels better in your hand than the other, the one that feels better is the one to get. I have not found a saw yet that really cuts any better then the old beater I use, but I have found a few that feel a lot better. One of my projects is to make a handle for an old saw plate and cut my own teeth. After that, maybe make a saw from scratch.

jim

[Roy Lindberry]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input.

[Ken Werner]

Roy, I have tried the LV rip DT saw 14 tpi, the LN, a Wenzloff, and the Cosman.

They all cut very well. The Cosman feels distinctly heavier, and starts easily. The LV seemed to cut a slightly narrower kerf. All are good. If cost is the biggest issue right now, I'd recommend the LV.

I'd suggest against trying to buy a used DT saw. By the time you pay for it, and pay for fixing it up, you're just about at the cost of the LV. If you can be patient, LN saws come up for sale used in the neighborhood of $100 from time to time. If the aesthetics of the saw matter to you, take a good look at the LV before you buy it, as it does have a pretty unique appearance. And remember to start your cuts on the push stroke from the get go, don't pull back first, you lose accuracy.

Just the $.02 of a tool hog.

[Don Dorn]

Ken having tried them all is a big help but I can speak to the LV and the Crown gents saw. I actually like using a gents saw and got the Frank Klauze video on handtools of which tuning a dovetail saw was part of it.

I used his method and found an amazing difference which wasn't difficult at all, or even that time consuming. I still like the Veritas, but the tuned Crown does nearly, or even as well. In 5/8" pine, two light strokes will get you to the marking gauge line.

[Tony Shea]

I was recently in a similar situation as yourself and just couldn't decide on all the great choices that are out there in the $150 price range. I had been using an older Disston that I had sharpened for a while and really never like the cutting action I was getting. The handle on it felt great but was not impressed with the sharpening job I received from a local sharpening company. I really didn't want to spend the time learning to sharpen that saw as I had a project started that required the use of the saw now.

Anyways, I finally decided on the LN 14TPI version as I was able to get a decent deal on it. I live about an hour and a half away from LN and if you buy in house you get a 10% discount, which was my deciding factor. I like to buy locally if at all possible. The moral is that I couldn't be happier with my choice as the LN saw is everything I dreamed it to be and more. It just cuts sweet, stays right on track, and has been a huge factor in me getting very proficient at dovetails. Im sure all other saws in this price range perform just as well but just have experience with the LN.

[Casey Gooding]

So much to choose from these days. We are truly lucky to be able to experience this Renaissance of hand tools.
Personally, I use the Independence dovetail saw (Pre-Lie-Nielsen) and am very happy with it. I also used the Adria saw for several years. While it's a great saw, I prefer longer saws.

[Jim R Edwards]

I am happy with my lie nielsen

[Darnell Hagen]

I love my LN progressive pitch, although if I had to do it all over again I'd look seriously at their Thin Plate model.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I use a Kanaharu rip for dovetails, great saw; but also great for dovetails were the LV Pro Dozuki (very cheap and truly excellent) and I'm told the LV rip dozuki is also outstanding. So, why did I buy the kanaharu? I wanted to try a small Japanese rip and both Chris Schwarz of PopWW and Harrelson of Hiraide recommended it highly.

Pam

[Tony Zaffuto]

I've got a crap load of tools and that includes tons of all kinds of saws. For DT saws, I have a LN, one of Joel's (TFWW), one I made myself, a Crown such as posted by the OP, several vintage DTs, one sharpened by Tom Law, another sharpened by Steve Cook and one sharpened by Pete Taran. I also have a Japanese style DT saw.

What I use: For hardwood stock up through 1/2" thick, I love the TFWW DT saw. The saw has a light feel and is just great in hand! For thicker stock, both hard and softwood, I like the LN or my home made (both of these have blade plates about .025" thick). The Tom Law sharpened saw is just great on any and everything, but I have a bit of an issue with the hang of the handle (open handled, but I don't think the original intent of Mr. Disston was to make this design a DT saw).

[Dave Diaman]

I am far from a tool collector but I have a weakness when it comes to dovetail saws. Let’s just say I own WAY too many. If you are looking for a good saw at a good price I would recommend buying the Gramercy dovetail saw blade kit and make your own handle. This will give you the ability to customize the handle to your hand and the saw cuts really well. Now if you want a saw that starts and cuts unlike anything you have ever seen these two guys Klaus and Pedder make an absolutely unbelievable saw. The saw is customized for your hand and fits like a glove. I cut a lot of dovetails and the first time I used this saw my jaw hit the floor. I think it is actually less then the Cosman saw and easily worth twice what they sell them for. The first picture is one of their customized saws with and ebony handle and the second is mine with a fiddle back kiaat handle.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/dtebony.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/dtebonyhandel.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/CIMG1739.jpg

[Al Navas]

I have settled on the Kenyon replica saw, by Wenzloff & Sons:

http://sandal-woodsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/wenzloff-kenyon-saw-bw.png

Easy to start, very thin kerf, it does great. Some feel it does not cut aggressively enough, due to the 20 tpi. But that is OK with me, as I am not in a hurry when cutting dovetails by hand.


.

[Tri Hoang]

I've had LN, Adria, and Veritas. I suggest Veritas saw on the least expensive side. Adria saw has been pretty nice to me.

Beyond certain price point, what you are buying is the look. The key to to a good saw is in the setting & sharpening - a must-have skill if you intend on keeping any hand saw in good working order. Progressive pitch is just a gimmick. Once you learned how to start a saw cut accurately, you can start a cut with a 5 tpi rip saw as well as a 20 tpi dovetail saw.

No amount of gimmick can replace muscle memory. Practice makes perfect.

[DOUG ANGEL]

Don't buy an inexpensive dovetail saw, they will make cutting dovetails seem like an insurmountable chore. I started with a moderately priced Dzuki. The straight handle and cut on the pull stroke felt unnatural. I recently bought a LV dovetail saw and the difference was amazing. This saw is accurate and comfortable to use. Yeah, I would like to get the LN and other pricier saws, but the LV is really good.:D

[Abi Parris]

Wow, Dave! That ebony handle is a beaut!

The LV is my go to at this point. Have an old Sorby too but find it a bit awkward in hand which is definately not the case with the LV.

[Zach England]

I have a veritas rip saw I could be persuaded to trade or sell if anyone is interested. I like my Adria better.

[paul cottingham]

how much persuasion do you need?

[Zach England]

how much persuasion do you need?


Not much. I'd rather trade it for something fun than sell it. I've been wishing lately that I had an additional marking gauge. I could also use a good 12-inch square. What I'd really like is a frog for a type 7 no. 8 or a girlfriend, but both of those are probably long shots.

[Roy Lindberry]

Thanks everybody.

It sounds like the LN and Veritas are both highly recommended. I like the look of the LN much better, but the price of the Veritas. Which to choose? Well, I have time to decide, since money is tight right now, but perhaps in the next couple of months I'll be buying one - I definitely suspect it will be my next tool purchase.

Again, thanks for the input. The word of "mouth" recommendations here mean far more than an advertising blurb somewhere.

[Steve Beadle]

I've only ever used three saws for dovetailing: a gent's saw (barely adequate), a Dozuki (adequate, but sometimes seemed to have a mind of its own), and a Wenzloff & Sons, sized to my large hand. The Wenzloff is a wonderful saw. Almost a zero learning curve and it cuts right where I aim it!

[Larry Fox]

I have a Wenzloff and really like it a lot - very nicely built saws.

[David Weaver]

I've used older disstons, gents saws, combination dozukis, the LV rip dozuki and a combination dozuki that is separate from the normal combination dozukis in that it doesn't crosscut quite as well and rips better (though not quite as well as the $90 or whatever LV rip dozuki).

I keep the latter combination at my bench and use it most of the time. For some reason, I just have a better time of it cutting dovetails with a saw that you pull.

A plain old gyochuko combination dozuki, or one by Z, will also do just fine and leave a very very fine cut - and they should be available at any woodworking store, or cheap online. One blade will do years of dovetailing if that's all you do with it, and the replacement blades (given their longevity) are just barely more than it costs to get decent files to sharpen a western saw.

[Paul Incognito]

I'v used an old Disston that I sharpened myself, a Lie Nielsen, and a Japanese Z saw.
I really want to say that the old Disston is my go to, but the LN works better for me. Maybe as I get better at sharpening that will change.
I've only used the Z saw enough to know that I prefer to cut on the push stroke.

PI

[Chris Griggs]

My experience is very limited, but I was in this same situation about 6 months ago, so here is my two cents.

First of all, you will likely be happy with any high quality saw. The saw you will be most comfortable with is the saw you use and get to know.

That said, I think its good to take some time to think about what kind of work you envision doing with your saw. If you really only want to cut dovetails in drawers and other pieces of thin wood something lighter and finer toothed may be preferred (e.g. Gramercy). Any of the 8-10 inch saws around 15ppi (e.g. LN, LV, Adria) will cover a range of dovetails and other fine work. Whatever you choose, most high end DT saws (except Veritas) will run $120-$150.

Also, (some may disagree with me on this), depending on the work you want to do, you may want consider saws that aren't labeled as dovetail saws. There are a number of small rip backsaws on the market that are slightly bigger than a standard dovetail saw and may provide you with a bit more versatility. It just comes down to what you want your saw to do.

My "dovetail saw" is LNs 15ppi Rip Carcass saw. I went with this mainly because I have long arms and thus thought I'd be more comfortable with a longer saw stroke. This was also my 1st backsaw, so I liked the idea of having something with a little more versatility. While I'd like to get a smaller, higher tooth count DT saw someday, for very fine work, it's been a pleasure learning to cut dovetails with my LN and I've never regretted my choice. Also, while I haven't needed to sharpen it yet, it's nice to know that if I loose the nerve to try it myself, I can send it back to LN for sharpening for only $15.

One more thing. I don't know if you've read this but Chris Schwarz wrote a nice comparison the LN, Gramercy, and the Wenzolf Kenyon-style DT saw a while back.

Here's the link: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/dovSaws/dovSaws-1.asp
(http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/dovSaws/dovSaws-1.asp)

[jerry nazard]

Chris,

Thanks for the link. Good review.

-Jerry

[Dave Diaman]

As I said before I own WAY too many dovetail saws. I make my living as a period furniture maker so my saw is one thing I am really particular about since I may cut 1000 dovetails a month sometimes. I will go over the saws I own or have tried and give you my personal take on each. I will start with the cheapest and work my way up. First of is the Dozuki. The Dozuki I own is just one of the $40 ones from Woodcraft. It leaves a thin kerf but cuts slow and isn’t comfortable to use for extended periods of time. The second is the Veritas. This is a good saw for the money. Personally it doesn’t fit my hand very well and the spine is a little light. Third is the Gramercy. This is third because I bought a blade kit ($70) and made the handle myself. This allowed me to fit the handle to my hand. This is a nice saw. I typically use this saw when I want something that isn’t real aggressive but still cuts fairly fast. This is a very light and nimble saw but would be a good choice. The fourth is the Lie Nielsen. I don’t really care for my LN saw but I think I may have a defective saw and if I sharpened it and reset the teeth it would probably be fine. I recently tried one at a LN tool event and it was much better. The fifth is a Wentzloff. Until recently this has been my go to saw and of the saws in the $130-$140 price range this and the Adria are probably the best for my taste.

Now we move onto the custom saws. Al these will be a little bit more expensive but are in a whole different league. All the previous saws perform very similarly with only minor differences. When you get into these it is like going from a Cadillac to a Porsche. The saw include the Medallion Tool Works saw, Eccentric Tool Works saw and last but defiantly not least the Klaus and Pedder saw. These saws will all have a handle custom made to fit your hand and are sharpened and set way beyond anything I can do to a saw. I have tried the Medallion and have one ordered. I have also tried the Eccentric TW saw which is exceptional but a little out of my price range. I own a saw built by Klaus and Pedder and this is hands down the best saw I own. Not only is it the best looking saw but starts and cuts fantastic. It is so much better than my other saws I won it isn’t fair to even compare them. As I said before this saw was custom made for my hand and sharpened tailored to the types of wood I work with. When cutting a dovetail in a ½” drawer side I set the saw in place, pull once which starts the saw and push once and I’m at the bottom of the cut. This saw is almost effortless to start and cut with. The saw is a little more expensive than the other saws yet less expensive than the Cosman saw and if I had only one saw this one would be it.

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Dave,

thank you for the kudos. That does mean a lot to Klaus and me, coming from a woodworker who saws that many dovetails as you do!

Cheers
Pedder

[John Coloccia]

re: the Veritas saws and the "look"

One thing to consider is this:
I was turned off my the look of the Veritas saws too. I was ready to buy the LN but I just didn't like how the grip felt in my hand so I decided to take a chance on the Veritas. It's MUCH heftier than it looks in the catalog but besides that, I'm starting to find I really like the clean, simple lines of the composite. There's nothing to take your eye away from the blade and the line you're following. I still don't like the look but from a functional standpoint it's really a step up in my opinion. Again, this is just my opinion and preference, and once you get away from those low end saws it's really difficult to buy a bad dovetail saw.

Has anyone tried the newer Pax saws, by the way? I saw one at Woodcraft a while back and it seems like they're pretty decent but I haven't had an opportunity to actually try one.

[John Coloccia]

Hi Dave,

thank you for the kudos. That does mean a lot to Klaus and me, coming from a woodworker who saws that many dovetails as you do!

Cheers
Pedder

Do you have catalog/website or do you basically just build anything a customer wants?

[Pedder Petersen]

Do you have catalog/website or do you basically just build anything a customer wants?

Hi John,

we don't have a catalog nor a real website but I show a few saws on my blog. I don't know if it is permitted to link my own blog so I won't do that at the moment.

We have build any saws from 9 " dovetail saws to 24" hand saws, but our most popular saw is the dovetail saw.

If you want to discuss a saw or place an order you can allways send me a pm. I attach a few pictures from saws made in the past:

Cheers Pedder

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/S8oIvqHklwI/AAAAAAAABj0/CC6vB3p943o/s1600/dt+ebony.JPG


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/S8oIu5iVgVI/AAAAAAAABjc/qAHMiMfgkx8/s1600/dt+ebony+pins.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8mxkzBCYMc4/S_kj-K-kNjI/AAAAAAAAAZc/PYwFVqc_vXY/s400/CIMG1722.JPG

[Chris Griggs]

re: the Veritas saws and the "look"

Has anyone tried the newer Pax saws, by the way? I saw one at Woodcraft a while back and it seems like they're pretty decent but I haven't had an opportunity to actually try one.

John,

Haven't tried them but Chris Gochnor reviewed the PAX 1776 DT saw for Fine Woodworking.

Here's what he said: "The handle on the Pax 1776 saw, made of English elm, was the most comfortable of the pistol-grip saws I tested, and its hang was the most to my liking. Its back is hefty and holds the long blade rigidly and in tension. The saw cut aggressively and fast, but it was a bit difficult to start and made for a rougher cut. However, the extra blade length allows for a long, efficient stroke, and the saw became a favorite of mine."

[Dave Diaman]

John,

Haven't tried them but Chris Gochnor reviewed the PAX 1776 DT saw for Fine Woodworking.

Here's what he said: "The handle on the Pax 1776 saw, made of English elm, was the most comfortable of the pistol-grip saws I tested, and its hang was the most to my liking. Its back is hefty and holds the long blade rigidly and in tension. The saw cut aggressively and fast, but it was a bit difficult to start and made for a rougher cut. However, the extra blade length allows for a long, efficient stroke, and the saw became a favorite of mine."


Thank you for an excellent saw Pedder. It truly makes cutting dovetails a joy

Chris
I think one of the big improvements on the K&P saw is that it has a 10” blade. The other differences are beyond me. While I am pretty good at sharpening a saw this saw is sharpened well beyond my ability. As someone has already stated, most of the saws are very similar and the only difference is cosmetic. I don’t know what Pedder does to the saw to make it cut the way it does but it starts and cuts unbelievably easy. The same can be said about the Eccentric Tool Works saw.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

Others have weighed in on this, so I'll try (and apparently fail) to be brief.

Every gent's saw I've ever used has been a piece of poo, to put it lightly. There's nothing inherent in the design that forces this, and I'm sure Wenzloff, say, or LN is capable of making one that doesn't suck, but I haven't used one yet. They might work out okay if dovetailing is a rare thing for you, but I can't imagine trying to do more than a couple drawers with any of the ones I've interacted with.

The Veritas saw is a beautiful, beautiful thing. It is in no way inferior to the comparable LN, Wenzloff, Gramercy, etc. brands, just different (and less expensive). They're a little finer toothed than I like, as I seem to end up doing a lot of carcasses in 3/4" oak and for that I prefer something in the 11-12 ppi range. The LN, Wenzloff, Gramercy, etc. are also all excellent as well, although they share the same toothing issue.

For thicker stuff I've used a bowsaw/framesaw a la Klausz and Frid, and I don't like it. But I think this has little to do with the bowsaw and much more to do with my inexperience with that style of saw. In any case I wouldn't try using one on typical drawer size stock; anything smaller than 3/4" and we're into the conventional dovetail saw territory. That said Ron Herman talked about cutting dovetails with a smallish bowsaw (very similar to the Gramercy turning saw in size and weight), so it can be done.

The DT saws I actually use are an old Speare & Jackson (for between ¼" and ½") and I think some variety of Disston than I rehabbed (for 3/4"). The only reason I use these is because I had them; I had received one shortly before going to WIA last year, and I promised myself I would not buy a brand new saw if I could get the S&J to perform to the level of the premium ones. I did more or less manage this (the Veritas, especially, has a thinner kerf, but we're talking about 1/32" of an inch or something, really not that big a deal) but I can't recommend this route to a novice.

[Scott Stafford]

I have both the Adria and Cosman saws. As mentioned the Cosman saws are the Cadilacs but I appreciate many aspects of the Adria for the price. Their service is wonderful the handles are beautiful and the overall craftmanship is everything you could ever desire. And.... he has has a one year guarantee; if you don't like it within a year return it and your money will be refunded. I can't imagine anyone ever returning one of these saws.

Also I like the idea that one man crafts the saw.

Scott in Montana

[David Weaver]

I'm not endorsing the 1776 saw, because I don't have one, but I did notice that hartville tool is clearancing them for about $75, and they claim at least to be set up with minimal set and a thin plate - something rare in saws from england these days.

I think they are 20tpi, though. If you sharpen your own saws, that's a bit of a pain. I realize people have differing opinions about sharpening, but I wouldn't want a saw that's a pain to sharpen because as easy as it is to touch up teeth, it would take me longer to box a saw and make a trip to the post office.

[Phillip Ngan]

I noticed that Adria provides a one year 100% money back guarantee so that you can try out the DT saw, and return it if it does not perform to your liking.

http://adriatools.com/adria_support/jpegs/saws_dovetail_info_small.jpg

[Charles Bender]

Ron,

As I point out in my DVD, the best way to pick out a saw is to try a bunch. Do you prefer a Japanese saw or a Western saw?

If you like a Western saw, do you prefer an open or closed grip? Do you like a heavy back on the saw or do you prefer a saw that is more evenly balanced? If price is a concern, the LV saw can't be beat. For me, I prefer a heavier back but I used a handful of their saws at one of The WoodWorking Shows this year and was surprised at how well they performed. In the shop, I use a LN saw and I love it. It is twice the price of the LV but, if it's in the budget, it's worth it.

One other thing I try to get across to folks who are just learning to cut dovetails is, it is not the tool it's the technique that matters. Learn how to cut accurately to a line and it won't matter which saw you use, you'll get great results. If you're at the point where you can consistently cut to a line, then a premium saw will make the experience even better. If you're anywhere near any of TWWS I do, you're welcome to stop by and try out a saw or two. Although next season I'll probably be demonstrating carving, I'll probably always have some dovetailing material handy.