Hanging methods for upper cabinets?

[Steve Griffin]

As part of a general attempt to improve specific tasks of my small cabinet business, I'm looking for advice on better ways to hang an upper cabinet.

I'm not talking about fastener methods--got that dialed. I'm talking about lifting and positioning the cabinet for doing a scribe or two and then again for final attachment.

Basically I'm doing it the caveman way--at my grunting commands, my hairy helper and I lift the cabinet up on a couple 2x4 screwed to a stud below the base cabinet level. Once the cabinet is sitting there, I run around using the laser or level to get it plumb using a shim or two, as my helper continues to sweat and hold it up on it's tippy perch. Then I fiddle with my scribe spacer size, climb a ladder and scribe down one edge. We take it down, I jigsaw/block plane to the line and we repeat. And because I'm a picky caveman, sometimes we repeat again since I like my eye level scribes to be watertight. Once hung, we take a break, eating a big hunk of raw meat on the end of our spears, wiping our hands on our animal skin outfits.

So, how does modern man do it? Are there jacks or lifts worth using? I'd love to be able to do the smaller cabinets alone, or at least reduce the labor time.

Thanks for the help!

-Steve

[Steve Bracken]

I'd like to improve my techniques for hanging upper cabinets.

As part of a general attempt to improve specific tasks of my small cabinet business, I'm looking for advice on better ways to hang an upper cabinet.

I'm not talking about fastener methods--got that dialed. I'm talking about lifting and positioning the cabinet for doing a scribe or two and then again for final attachment.

Basically I'm doing it the caveman way--at my grunting commands, my hairy helper and I lift the cabinet up on a couple 2x4 screwed to a stud below the base cabinet level. Once the cabinet is sitting there, I run around using the laser or level to get it plumb using a shim or two, as my helper continues to sweat and hold it up on it's tippy perch. Then I fiddle with my scribe spacer size, climb a ladder and scribe down one edge. We take it down, I jigsaw/block plane to the line and we repeat. And because I'm a picky caveman, sometimes we repeat again since I like my eye level scribes to be watertight. Once hung, we take a break, eating a big hunk of raw meat on the end of our spears, wiping our hands on our animal skin outfits.

So, how does modern man do it? Are there jacks or lifts worth using? I'd love to be able to do the smaller cabinets alone, or at least reduce the labor time.

Thanks for the help!

-Steve

Why don't you just build a couple of adjustable stands ... like roller stands with or without a roller top. Actually, a roller top would allow easy sideways adjustment.

[John A. Callaway]

french cleats. super simple.... after you hang those just run a few screws along the bottom to secure it permanently.

[Steve Bracken]

french cleats. super simple.... after you hang those just run a few screws along the bottom to secure it permanently.

French cleats are great, but they are not built into kitchen cabinets as standard, as they don't allow for much *on-site* adjustment.

They are my method of choice for single cupboard though. As you say, super simple and very strong.

[Karl Brogger]

If you need to put scribe on an end, make it a loose stile. Lifting a wall cabinet more than once is rediculous. It is also the only way I know of to do a wall to wall cabinet and get it perfect.


Other than that I just use a pair of cripples that are a bit longer than what is actually needed and just hold the bottom of the cripple out away from the wall, and kick them in to get the cabinet hieght and level dialed.


Simple is best.

[Peter Quinn]

http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm. Buy the hairy helper a coffee and have him turn this handle while he drinks it!

[Joe Chritz]

Applied ends whenever possible. The same system without all the grunting. Plus it makes building the boxes easier.

Joe

[johnny means]

Are these cabinets that you build? If so, I find that it is much easier to engineer them with an easy hanging method built in. A french cleat that runs the length of your cabinet run can be installed level before hand guaranteeing a level install. The end cabinet can be hung, scribed, slid down the cleat a bit, then trimmed to fit without taking the cabinet down. This also makes all but the biggest cabinets a one man job.

[Steve Griffin]

http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm. Buy the hairy helper a coffee and have him turn this handle while he drinks it!

That's what I was thinking about. This idea is in first place!

-Steve

[Steve Griffin]

Applied ends whenever possible. The same system without all the grunting. Plus it makes building the boxes easier.

Joe

I'm with you on that! For contemporary or overlay cabinets, I frequently try to keep the end panels off, or a have a loose stile.

Still got to lift and position the cabinet once though....

However, I should have mentioned more than half my work is inset door, frame and panel ends. I only use the loose stile method if I absolutely have too such as a wall to wall.

-Steve

[Steve Griffin]

Are these cabinets that you build? If so, I find that it is much easier to engineer them with an easy hanging method built in. A french cleat that runs the length of your cabinet run can be installed level before hand guaranteeing a level install. The end cabinet can be hung, scribed, slid down the cleat a bit, then trimmed to fit without taking the cabinet down. This also makes all but the biggest cabinets a one man job.

Very interesting. I've only used a french cleat for single, country cupboard type pieces, and never did any scribing.

But since I do build my cabinets, maybe I should revisit this idea.

Do you have specs on the size, shape of a good french cleat? I can imagine how easy a left or right side scribe could be, but what about a scribe for a side panel going back to the mounting wall? Seems like you loose control of the final height?

Thanks! -Steve

[johnny means]

Very interesting. I've only used a french cleat for single, country cupboard type pieces, and never did any scribing.

But since I do build my cabinets, maybe I should revisit this idea.

Do you have specs on the size, shape of a good french cleat? I can imagine how easy a left or right side scribe could be, but what about a scribe for a side panel going back to the mounting wall? Seems like you loose control of the final height?

Thanks! -Steve

A french cleat can also be used to hold a cabinet a small distance off the wall for scribing. This is done by not letting the cabinet cleat sink completely into the wall cleat. If you use a ¾" cleat, you can actually hang a cabinet, shim it plumb, then scribe the side panel to the back wall with a scribe as wide as ⅝". Of course, you do have to remove the cabinet in order to trim the side panel.

The only rule I have for my french cleats is to use a 45∘angle.

As far as final height, I like that determined and set before I start lifting the heavy stuff.

[Richard Dragin]

Use a piece of 1x3 pine to make a temporary ledger to rest the back of the case on. If it runs the length of all the cabinets you don't have to measure more than once.

[johnny means]

Just noticed this http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm . Does anyone else think this thing looks like way more trouble than its worth? It makes me think of how difficult it is to drop an engine into place with an engine hoist.

[Steve Bracken]

Just noticed this http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm . Does anyone else think this thing looks like way more trouble than its worth? It makes me think of how difficult it is to drop an engine into place with an engine hoist.

As my Dad might have said:

"HOW MUCH?!!!"

[Glenn Vaughn]

We used french cleats on the cabinets we are doing for the kitchen. Initally we were going to ru the cabinets dead level but found out that was not a good idea appearance wise. It turns out the ceiling has a 1/8" per inch drop per foot from left to right. It is not noticeably out of level to the eye but the ga[p difference at the top of the cabinets would have been siignificent over the 13.25 foot run of the cBNETS (1 5/8" difference from one end to the other). We used two spacer blocks to mount the wall cleats parallel to the ceiling. At first the wife insisted on perfectl;y level but changed her mind after we ran 1X4 the length of the cabinets - level first then parallel. You have to put a level on the cabinet to be able to see they are not perfectly level. The slope is so small round objects do not roll on them.

[Dave MacArthur]

Even if you can't design the cabinet for good french cleat support, you can mod store bought ones easily. I've been able to install BORG bought wall to wall cabinet runs in laundry rooms using french cleat without any problems, by myself. Some don't have any air-gap pocket, those you can just affix a cleat and hang. If there's a pocket between the back of cabinet and the wall, I just fill it in.

For cleats, I generally just take a rip 6" wide strips of 3/4" plywood, then rip those 8' sections in half at 45 degrees. This is my french cleat, one side goes on the wall solid/uncut, the other matching side will get cross-cut to the width of each cabinet to be hung.

I measure the "depth" of the borg cabinets between the cabinet back and the rear edge of the sides, usually 1/2" to 3/4". I rip some poplar 4" wide and plane to the correct thickness, or use plywood/MDF if it's the right thickness. I then cross-cut this to fit against the back of the cabinet in the "pocket" between the wall, the cabinet back, and the cabinet sides. This will allow you to have solid wood instead of an airspace all the way from the french cleat through the rear-wall of cabinet for hanging--I like to screw the cabinets in place once hanging on the cleat, and you need solid wood from the back to the wall. I've found the "hanging strips" on most borg cabinets I buy is just waaaay to small for me to trust. I just slap on some glue, press them up in the top of the rear pocket and another in the bottom of the read pocket, and pin them in place through the sides/top with staple nailer. Screws through them later will hold the load, you just need them to be firmly in place.

I then cross cut one of the cleats to the cabinet width and glue/pin it against the top back edge. I have all the cabinets lined up on a flat surface (board), so the bottom edges are "plumb", if the tops are all level good to go for attaching the cleats. If not level, I run a chalk line across them a distance up from bottom (just far enough down from top to be plumb), then glue/pin the cleats against the poplar spacer.

In the house, I just put up the matching cleat at the appropriate height, screwed solidly into the studs. Down near where the cabinet bottoms will be but up an inch, I attach a 3/4" x 2" strip of plywood or poplar. Lift the cabinets up one by one, hang on the cleat. I've got the studs marked out at top and bottom of the cabinets on the wall so I can see them. Once in place, I just screw all the face-frames or walls together, then I just run in 3" screws into through the cleats anchored to the wall, top and bottom, trying to hit any studs if I can.

Takes about 30 minutes of ripping/gluing/pinning to prep a whole laundry room. I use a loose stile for end-runs against a wall, scribe/cut, insert.

For end panels going back to the wall, I just don't do it-- I use trim usually. But if I had to, I'd apply loose end panels. If I couldn't do that, I'd use 1/8" hardboard strip 2" wide held at the correct height, scribe it, cut it and use it as a template to scribe the cabinet still sitting on the ground. Then cut the cabinet side, and hang.

I've watched cabinet guys put up kitchens in 15 minutes, just screwing them to the wall. Solo guys I've seen used the angled stand that holds the bottom of cabinet edge, with a built-in jack they can step on to raise the cabinet a bit. I absolutely hate that method of hanging cabinets on walls though, one look at pre-fab cabinets makes me doubt the strength of a couple screw in a 1/2" max back to hold the weight of stuff that gets put in them. I much prefer a french cleat and more screws than needed.

Sorry for the long post, I know the OP is way past this, but figured there will be lots of beginners reading the thread so I'd go into detail.;)

[Steve Griffin]

Just noticed this http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm . Does anyone else think this thing looks like way more trouble than its worth? It makes me think of how difficult it is to drop an engine into place with an engine hoist.

I'd love your input on this. To me, this looks like the dream machine. The price doesn't bother me a bit, since I do this for a living. It wouldn't take long to pay for it if I can save some $30/hour helper time.

I found a steel version for $515 elsewhere.

What are your concerns? I'm wondering if maybe the thing is a little tippy and not rock solid enough. Also, maybe it's tough to level a longer cabinet since it's only 9" wide.

-Steve

[frank shic]

try using these and forget about the bulky gilift or the hairy friend lol:

http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm?GroupID=Fasteners%20%26%20Screws&CatID=Hanging%20Rails%20and%20Fittings&showprod=1

[Steve Griffin]

try using these and forget about the bulky gilift or the hairy friend lol:

http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm?GroupID=Fasteners%20%26%20Screws&CatID=Hanging%20Rails%20and%20Fittings&showprod=1


Very cool. Looks like you hang your cabinet on the rail, and adjust it like a big blum hinge.

Looks like it's best suited to situations where your end panel is applied later though.

I've bookmarked this product and will probably give it a try. I'm thinking that using it with a Gill lift could possibly be the ticket for one person installation.

-Steve

[johnny means]

I'd love your input on this. To me, this looks like the dream machine. The price doesn't bother me a bit, since I do this for a living. It wouldn't take long to pay for it if I can save some $30/hour helper time.

I found a steel version for $515 elsewhere.

What are your concerns? I'm wondering if maybe the thing is a little tippy and not rock solid enough. Also, maybe it's tough to level a longer cabinet since it's only 9" wide.

-Steve

First of all, $30 an hour for a helper. I'll send my resume:D

But anyway, that contraption to me seems like a lot of fuss to lift a cabinet into place. No doubt your still left wrestling with the cabinet to achieve plum and level. I'm sure with no other way to hold the cabinet in place this beats paying for help. But, I think any rudimentary hanging system would be better for productivity.

[Steve Griffin]

First of all, $30 an hour for a helper. I'll send my resume:D

But anyway, that contraption to me seems like a lot of fuss to lift a cabinet into place. No doubt your still left wrestling with the cabinet to achieve plum and level. I'm sure with no other way to hold the cabinet in place this beats paying for help. But, I think any rudimentary hanging system would be better for productivity.

Thanks for the reply!

And yes, send your resume. I'm sure you realize your wage will be considerably less than $30, after I pay bookkeeper, insurance, employer taxes etc etc.....

I used to have several employees, but with the :mad:economy, its down to just me and the occasional temp help. But I'm thankful to still be busy.

-Steve

[John Christian]

I 'watch' people build high rises for a living. Lots of good cabinet installers use a cheap car jack. The parallelogram type with a long screw through the middle that you turn to raise and lower. they simply put a piece of ply top and bottom for stability.

[Karl Brogger]

http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm. Buy the hairy helper a coffee and have him turn this handle while he drinks it!

I used one of these, (I think even the same exact model), at a shop I used to work for. It was okay when you were by yourself, but a rancid pain in the rear to use. It was heavy to carry into the house, and just plain too time consuming.

I use a 1/2" plywood back in all of my wall cabinets that is screwed into the carcass. French cleats are nice with the ease of just screwing strips up, then hanging the box, but I really don't think you are gaining anything in either time or strength. You also lose that fudge factor where sometimes you have to jack one end up to get that box tight with another. I also don't like the idea of losing anymore interior space then neccessary. Few things piss me off more than having a serving plate that doesn't fit in an upper.:mad:

I pre-drill all of my screw holes when the box is on the ground, put the screws in finger tight, through a drill in the hole, and lift it up. On smaller boxes the cripples aren't even needed. One guy holds it, the other bumps it around to get it in place then tags it too the wall.

A couple of sticks at 55-7/8", (or 54" + whatever the pocket is behind the bottom rail, and a bit more), is all you need for setting upper/wall cabinets. And for the most part, two guys. Doing it alone sucks, and delivery is basically impossible with out two people anyway.

[Joe Chritz]

I generally use the "screw a scrap on the wall" method. It works great if you still have wall work to do or are using a tile backsplash. Life it up and set it on the ledge, bump around and attach.

Joe

[Stew Hagerty]

+1 for French Cleats. The concept can be adjusted and/or modified for most situations.

[Greg Portland]

WOW that is expensive. I am not a pro but I have helped install 2 kitchens. Both times we used a cheap drywall lift (tilt mechanism locked). This would only work if the base cabinets were not installed & you'd have to be careful about the floor. I would think you could take this mechanism (or a winch of some sort) and cobble together a plywood version of the Gillift. (plywood box riding up and down a plywood box pole, etc.).

[Joe Chritz]

Here is a way that I have thought about but now I use planted on backs and applied ends so it wouldn't work for my construction style, however if you use 1/4" backs and a hanging rail anyway it is about the easiest.

Set you dado for you back equal to the thickness of 3/4" plywood from the back. Instead of a 45degree french cleat make a combo rabbit version. Each tongue is just under 1/2 thickness of the plywood. The hanging rail attaches with pocket screws and glue to the cab back, full width. The hanging rail is cut about an inch or two short and attached to the wall. This gives you the set vertical with a little adjustment if needed and adjustment both directions.

You do need to mark the cab locations on the wall and be mindful of the stud locations so the cleats at least hit a couple. Scribing an attached end will still be a trick and using a template is probably the best way.

I'm tempted to use a french cleat on the ones I am finishing now. Just a full rail and a cleat attached to each back. The applied ends cover the 3/4" gap. I have been known to make a simple box from plywood that is the correct 18 3/4" tall. I then lay down a piece of 3/4 for a temp counter and set the box on it. Set the upper on the box and do my thing.

There are probably 100 different ways and they all work.

Joe

[Steve Griffin]

Thanks for your thoughts Karl,
Sounds like I'm back to the caveman method.

I agree about the french cleat points. I can't figure out how they would work in say a U-shaped kitchen with non-flat sheetrock walls and end panels attached to the cabinets. And I hate the idea of losing my extra deep depth which is such a good selling point to the customer.

In terms of the lift, why was it a pain to use? You say it's a pain to carry in, but I do have a helper for that task and after bringing in a trailer full of cabs and a truck full of tools, it hardly will bother me. It's its use I care about. Is it tough to precisely raise to where you want it? Or is it not a solid working platform? Or does it take forever to operate the crank?

Any other comments on the lift would be greatly appreciated!

-Steve

[Greg Portland]

With the lift:

- Some wheels can mar the floor (an issue if the floors are already installed)
- The lift will need to be near the wall so no base cabinets and hopefully plumbing, etc. is not in the way (wasn't an issue for me, may be for you if you do retrofit jobs).
- The lift must be able to fully and securely lock (no tilting!). Most drywall lifts intentionally have a few degrees of play in them so you can angle in the board. We removed the "cradle" and built a simple platform out of wood. Telpro sells a steel "material lift" attachment that would be perfect (Telpro is of course one of the most expensive brands). It may be worth seeing if that accessory would fit onto a cheaper lift.
- Crank operation is fast & a sheet of drywall weighs about what a cabinet would (so no concerns about overloading the tool).

IMO you should get the material lift attachment from Telpro (or build your own out of plywood) and fit it onto the crank / vertical shaft mechanism of a drywall lift. You can rent a lift and try this before you shell out $$$ on a decent lift.

[Karl Brogger]

Is it tough to precisely raise to where you want it?

Exactly. Its just a winch like you find on the front of a power boat trailer. One "click" always seems to be too much. Fine tuning the position laterally is not nearly as easy as one would think either. Especially if the floor is dirty, or un-even like a natural rough tile.

[Greg Portland]

Its just a winch like you find on the front of a power boat trailer. One "click" always seems to be too much.The one I used had no "clicks", it used a friction brake on the pulley (i.e. infinite adjustment).

I agree that you don't want to wheel things around once the lift is loaded. That's why I suggested the platform.. you can nudge the cabinet around on the platform to get it exactly into place.

One issue that I forgot to mention is that the -lowest- height of these lift systems is still fairly high (probably why Telpro sells the Gillift). It was no problem for the two standard kitchen installs that I did. However, I'm not sure what height installs you are going to encounter so I thought I'd mention it.

Again, I am not a pro cabinet guy... I just installed two kitchens and the drywall lift + platform worked well for us. You can easily rent these and see if it will fit your work style.

[Wayne Hendrix]

http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm. Buy the hairy helper a coffee and have him turn this handle while he drinks it!

The cabinet install business that I worked for had two of these. THEY ARE AWESOME. They are also a pain in the butt to haul around and it is a little difficult to get the cabinet at the exact height. However, both of these drawbacks are easily worked around and just require some practice. Anyone of the people that worked for our company could easily hang cabinets by themself. One builder that we installed for had the nasty habit of making each wall in the kitchen one big upper cabinet and we would just put one of them under the center of gravity and crank it up into place. We liked them so much that if we didnt have the upper cabinets and only had the bases we would go to another job and wait for the uppers so that we could use the Gillift.

I would recommend the extra money for the aluminum, they are heavy as it is I couldnt imagine a steel one.

[Steve Griffin]

Thanks for the comments Wayne.

Maybe this tool is like many others--takes some dialing in and customizing to really make them shine. like the one builder you mention, I have a bad habit of making big cabinets--high end, inset style is tough to make a break in a cabinet run.

I'm thinking about a custom platform for the lift, using cabinet leveler hardware of some sort to tune the height, plumb and level.....

Many thanks to all others who have made comments, even if I haven't directly answered--every post has been helpful!

-Steve

[Chris Friesen]

I saw an article in Fine Homebuilding about a pro cabinet installer. As I recall, his process was:

1) install extra blocking in the wall if necessary
2) screw the whole run of cabinets together flush and level while they were sitting on the floor. He used clamps like the ones here: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=65574&cat=51&ap=1
3) lift the whole run of cabinets into place using a lift very much like the one linked above
4) scribe the sides
5) drop them back down and cut the sides to the scribe lines
6) lift them back up, shim where appropriate, and fasten to the wall

[Wayne Hendrix]

Thanks for the comments Wayne.

Maybe this tool is like many others--takes some dialing in and customizing to really make them shine. like the one builder you mention, I have a bad habit of making big cabinets--high end, inset style is tough to make a break in a cabinet run.

I'm thinking about a custom platform for the lift, using cabinet leveler hardware of some sort to tune the height, plumb and level.....

Many thanks to all others who have made comments, even if I haven't directly answered--every post has been helpful!

-Steve

I dont know that a custom platform would make much difference. There is enough flex and movement in the lift that you cant really lock the cabinet in position, rather the lift holds the cabinet at the desired height and frees you up to make the adjustments and screw it to the wall.

Sounds complicated but it really does work well with some time to figure out a technique that works for you.

Our process was very similar to the one posted, * shows where we varied:

1) install extra blocking in the wall if necessary
* use a straight edge to identify high/low spots in the wall
2) screw the whole run of cabinets together flush and level while they were sitting on the floor. He used clamps like the ones here: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/pag...74&cat=51&ap=1
* we did that for the runs that we could but most runs were too long
3) lift the whole run of cabinets into place using a lift very much like the one linked above
* if not mounting the whole run we would generally start with the cabinet on the high spot and mount it flush to the wall, shimmed to plum if necessary, then lift each adjacent cabinet individually
4) scribe the sides
5) drop them back down and cut the sides to the scribe lines
6) lift them back up, shim where appropriate, and fasten to the wall

[Alan Lightstone]

HF Hydraulic Lift Table: Lifts 1000lbs, and adjusts from 11" - 34.5". Build a box for the top of it around 24-36" high, and you can lift the cabinet up to 70" inches high. Typical HF quality, so the center is bowed upwards. This rocking of the box can provide all the adjustment latitude that you need (and then some :( ).

http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-hydraulic-scissor-table-cart-93116.html

[frank shic]

wow and you'll be getting a good workout lugging that 188 pounds in and out of the van lol ;)

[Doug Carpenter]

The lift is cool but looks heavy. but the hairy dude can cary it. The problem I see is whoe has a countertop before upper cabinets.

We take everythig off the cabinet to protect them and to make them lighter. I like putting a cleat on the wall to rest them on because it helps with the weight, and we always wind up with tile for the backsplash anyway so the hole is no biggie.

If they are built by you then certainly engineering a french cleat would be nice.

Also I have found the cabinet claw clamps to be really awsome and strong enough to hold the cabinet in place.

I guess you streamline what you can and some things just require the work be done the old fashion way.

[jack duren]

I've been a cabinet maker for 27 yrs and have yet to see a installer helper get $30 an hr. Now if its just for the day I can understand but just to hold cabinets, no. The only time I have ever used french cleats was on a log cabin and this was because the cabin moves over time. Other than that its a waste of time. I also installed full time for a residentail cabinet shop fro 1999-2006 and refused a cabinet lift as it was a waste of time.

Since the economy has failed I now run my residential shop part time and run a commercial shop in Kansas City full time. The only time I dont install now is when I'm too busy getting jobs done or its a union job. Union workers get scale which I believe is just above $30 a hr. Last I heard installers got 6% and maybe 1% for hardware.

My suggestion would be to sub out the installs.....Jack

[Steve Griffin]

I've been a cabinet maker for 27 yrs and have yet to see a installer helper get $30 an hr. Now if its just for the day I can understand but just to hold cabinets, no. The only time I have ever used french cleats was on a log cabin and this was because the cabin moves over time. Other than that its a waste of time. I also installed full time for a residentail cabinet shop fro 1999-2006 and refused a cabinet lift as it was a waste of time.

Since the economy has failed I now run my residential shop part time and run a commercial shop in Kansas City full time. The only time I dont install now is when I'm too busy getting jobs done or its a union job. Union workers get scale which I believe is just above $30 a hr. Last I heard installers got 6% and maybe 1% for hardware.

My suggestion would be to sub out the installs.....Jack

Thanks for the comment on the lift and cleats.

Surely you know the cost of an employee to a business is MUCH more than the wage he gets.

Around here, even with the junk economy, a good shop hand needs 18-22/hour. Sure, I can get a grunt for 15, but I like someone who can do more than lift and can be depended on to stick with me in the future.

My cost gets up pretty close to that $30 number. Workers comp. Employer paid Social security and other taxes. A bookkeepers fee to do payroll and paperwork. My time to hire/handle/manage him. Not to mention non-billable time such as training, driving time, lunch (yep, I'm a nice guy sometimes).

And these are the good ol days compared to whats ahead for employers....

-Steve

[Wayne Hendrix]

My suggestion would be to sub out the installs

That was us, and at one point we were installing 3 semi-loads of cabinets a week with 8 guys. That included off-loading the trucks, hanging all the cabinets, and doing the built in place laminate tops.

We used lifts. YMMV

[Steve Griffin]

I'd love to sub out installs.

Problem is, in this economy, I just have enough work to keep busy if I do almost everything. Besides, most of my jobs are fairly high end--not bolt together, homedepot imitation overlay affairs, and would need some to pay for some experienced talent to do the install correctly.

What I always like to do, in good and bad times, is always strive to find better, faster and cheaper methods of work. And that is what this thread is really about.

-Steve

[Graham Wintersgill]

How about small scissor lifts or small motorcycle lifts?

You would need to mount this one on a box but has a 7 inch range:
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/CTGY/20493

And this is a small M/C lift
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-HYDRAULIC-SCISSOR-MOTORBIKE-BIKE-ATV-QUAD-JACK-LIFT_W0QQitemZ110514501102QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&rvr_id=&cguid=89402bcb1280a0e202f2ca42ff04fa21

Harbor Freight also have a couple.

Regards

Graham

[Karl Brogger]

Steve- the best thing I've done as far as making install days easier, was switching from Melamine to plywood interiors. The boxes darn near weigh half of what they did out of particleboard. With the doors off, and just an empty shell I've lifted a 8', 42" upper and hung it by myself. I didn't enjoy it though, but it was do able.

Running a one man shop is just a basket of fun isn't it?

[Steve Griffin]

Follow up:

Many thanks for the comments and ideas everyone. This thread is hopefully helpful to others as there are many excellent ideas to consider.

I ended up getting the EZ-LIFT. Haven't used it on a job yet, but I played with it with a small upper in the shop. So far I'm absolutely delighted.

http://www.e-zspreadnlift.com/detailaj.htm

Maybe I'll do a mini-review after using it on the next couple jobs.
Here's my initial impressions:

-the winch is way better than expected--effortless raising and lowering and each click is only 1/16" of an inch, so it's easy to find the proper height.

-the plumb adjustment screws allow for very precise leveling of the table.

-there is more slop in the system than I had hoped. I need it to hold a cabinet solid enough to do a scribe, not just screw to the wall. I'm hoping that if the cabinet is touching the wall, plumbed and I'm careful, I can scribe just fine.

-Assembly really does take less than a minute, and will only take two easy trips to take into a jobsite.

At this price it's not something most in the hobby would be able to justify, but I'm already sure for my small operation I can't live without it.

-steve

[Jim Becker]

I pretty much universally use "French cleats" for hanging cabinetry...

[Richard McComas]

http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm. Buy the hairy helper a coffee and have him turn this handle while he drinks it!+1 Never use one myself but I know many pro cabinet installers use that particular lift.

[Steve Griffin]

+1 Never use one myself but I know many pro cabinet installers use that particular lift.


Good to hear. It looks like it might be more solidly built than the "EZ lift" I ended up ordering. However, the " Telpro/Gill lift" is more expensive, can't handle deeper cabinets and doesn't have the adjustable table like the EZ-LIft.

-Steve

[Steve Griffin]

I pretty much universally use "French cleats" for hanging cabinetry...

French clips are awesome. However, no amount of imagination could convince me they would work well for the most common style of cabinet I do. I often build inset door uppers, with one piece corners and frame and panel sides. Without some complicated hardware which allows some adjustablity, I couldn't figure out how to control the height of each cabinet. French clips would only work in a perfect world with perfectly plumb walls which are perfectly flat.

-Steve

[Phil Thien]

French clips would only work in a perfect world with perfectly plumb walls which are perfectly flat.

-Steve

I sure hope not. My winter project will be building storage cabinets for LOML and I'm using cleats to install them on a plaster wall.

The wall isn't perfectly uniform but there is still some adjustability. The idea is that the cleat holes the cabinet to the wall while you make adjustments. I can adjust up/down with shims between the cleats, and in/out with shims between the wall and cabinet.

I plan to just let them "hang" until I have them all up and adjusted, then screw them all to the wall and to each other.

[Steve Griffin]

I sure hope not. My winter project will be building storage cabinets for LOML and I'm using cleats to install them on a plaster wall.

The wall isn't perfectly uniform but there is still some adjustability. The idea is that the cleat holes the cabinet to the wall while you make adjustments. I can adjust up/down with shims between the cleats, and in/out with shims between the wall and cabinet.

I plan to just let them "hang" until I have them all up and adjusted, then screw them all to the wall and to each other.

Sounds like a good solution for your situation.

-Steve

[Steve Griffin]

I finally got a chance to use my new lift on the job.

In a nutshell, it's a dream tool and I couldn't be happier.

This particular job had about 8 cabinets, and I opted to deliver and install without hiring help. Not paying for help on this job was a nice first dividend payback on this tool purchase.

Like many tools, it will take a few more cabinets to learn how to use it to full potential. One thing I learned right off the bat is when adjusting the leveling knobs, you always are adjusting two of them. Also, you definitely are better off with tape or pencil marks on the wall which indicate where you want the cabinet, rather than chasing the bubble of a level.

I literally could have hung this cabinet with one hand holding a cup of coffee. I raised it once to my plumb and level marks, then and did a scribe on both ends, and then lowered it to eye level and used a low angle block plane to shave to the pencil lines. If it was a bigger cabinet, I'd probably take a few more seconds and lower it to the floor to do the scribes.

Then it got cranked up a second time and I immediately screwed it to the wall. The lift has a little play, so I did one end at a time and was able to push it a 1/16 or 1/8 up or over to my marks on the wall. Sweeeet!!!!

It's definitely not a hobbiest tool, but anyone who does this for a living and doesn't have one should definitely consider it.

-Steve

[Ted Wong]

Invest in a Genie-Lift. You can gang several units together, crank it up into place, scribe as needed, lower, trim and hang all without messing up your back.

[David Thompson 27577]

Just noticed this http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/gillift.htm . Does anyone else think this thing looks like way more trouble than its worth? It makes me think of how difficult it is to drop an engine into place with an engine hoist.

IMO, it is more trouble than its worth, but only for some cabinets. Standard wall boxes -- maybe 24" wide and 13 to 15 deep, 30" high, seem simple enough using other methods.

But when the customer wants some behemoth that wraps around a corner, and goes all the way to the ceiling, I need mechanical help. At my local rental center, the linked device is available in a room height model -- it has forks that will lift the cabinet from the floor, all the way to the required height. They call it a "duck lift".

And its a life saver for those cabinets that tip the scales at more than 75 pounds or so.

[Tom Hammond]

Basically I'm doing it the caveman way--at my grunting commands, my hairy helper and I lift the cabinet up on a couple 2x4 screwed to a stud below the base cabinet level.


I have a 6-sided box made of 1/2 plywood. It's 20" wide, 10" deep, and 53 1/2" high. I premark the level line all the way around, at 54" off the floor, using a laser or similar post-caveman technology. Then I set the box in position under where the upper cabinet goes, set the cabinet on it, shim to the line and screw to the wall. Works great.

I have a 17 1/2" box as well, for when the base cabinets are already in.

[Steve Griffin]

I have a 6-sided box made of 1/2 plywood. It's 20" wide, 10" deep, and 53 1/2" high. I premark the level line all the way around, at 54" off the floor, using a laser or similar post-caveman technology. Then I set the box in position under where the upper cabinet goes, set the cabinet on it, shim to the line and screw to the wall. Works great.

I have a 17 1/2" box as well, for when the base cabinets are already in.

Tom that is an excellent idea, and probably one of the best presented in this thread. In fact before I bought my lift, I sketched out an idea for a box like yours which had leveling screws at four corners.

But in the end I saw a slight advantage to the EZ-Lift for one guy installs--as long as I have help with the initial delivery of cabinets, I wanted to be able to do things as much as possible without help or lifting.

-Steve