Veritas Planes

[John Adam]

On another thread, I was asking how to spend some money...narrowing it down a bit.

For a smoother - #4, low angle smoother or BU smoother? Looks like the footprints are about the same (10" x 2"), and the prices are similar (with the BU smoother the most pricey). Seems like the BU is more versatile, but what is the big difference between it and the low angle smoother?

Also, it seems like the Veritas planes are about 2/3 the cost of equivalent LN. If budget is limited, any reason not to go Veritas (other than wantin to stay on the mailing list as it is my primary source of bathroom reading)?

Thoughts?

[Zach England]

One of the smoothers uses the same blades as the other two bevel-up planes. I think it is the one they call "bevel-up", but I could be wrong. I have all three of these planes and several different blades that I can switch between them. I don't use them much, but sometimes they are just the ticket, especially with the adjustable mouths. I'd use them more if I didn't have other planes that are already set up without having to switch blades. I think the bevel-up smoother, jack and jointer, with the different bevel angles and the toothed blade are a very useful combination.

However, I also have a Veritas 5 1/4 that I really like because of the Norris-style adjuster, which their other bevel-down planes also utilize. The way the frog attaches to the top of the tote makes for a really different feel that took me a long time to get used to but that I have grown to love.

I think the fit and finish of the Veritas planes is every bit as good as the Lie-Nielsen. They don't have the "bling" factor of all the brass and bronze, but the quality is there. Other than an objective judgment of quality, I don't think the two are comparable. They are apples and oranges. I have several of each and like both equally.

[Jim Koepke]

Let me start with the last question first.

The only reason in my mind is if one maker's plane fits your hand or use style better than the other maker.

Most of my preference has been old Stanley/Bailey planes except the three planes purchased from LN that are demonstrably cheaper or better than the Stanley/Bailey originals.

My opinion is that Veritas (Lee Valley) planes are every bit as high quality as the LN planes. They are just a different design.

As to the difference between the Bevel-Up Smoother and the Low Angle Smoother from Veritas looking at the information on their site indicates the blade is wider than on the Low Angle Smoother and the body is "coffin shaped." The site also says, "We have dubbed this plane a 164-1/2 H." This most likely refers to a plane Stanley made and is now made by Lie-Nielsen, the #164. The "-1/2H" signifies a wider plane and heavier body.

The Low angle smoother is a 2 inch blade and has flat sides which gives it an advantage if you need a plane for use on a shooting board.

Incase anyone is curious, my Lie-Nielsen planes are a #1, #62 and a #60-1/2 bought in that order. All three are work to or better than my expectations.

Other than being a satisfied customers of both of the vendors mentioned, there are no other affiliations between them and myself.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

They don't have the "bling" factor of all the brass and bronze, but the quality is there.

In my opinion, the iron castings look better. If they are available in iron, that is my preference.

jim

[Rick Rutten]

Jim what do you use the #1 for? I thought they were mostly decorative in nature.

Rick

[Jim Koepke]

Jim what do you use the #1 for? I thought they were mostly decorative in nature.

Rick

No, they were not made to be decorations on a Christmas tree or a mantle. Though, there are surely a lot of people who would have ear to ear smiles if they woke up one morning to see such a decoration.

For small work, they can not be beat. I often use them on a cabinet to align the front of a shelf with an edge or other small trim jobs. For me, they are often easier to use one handed than most block planes. They are also good for those times where there is just a dime sized area of tear out.

Just a day or two ago, I was having one of my daughters shave the edges of some pieces that were of lengths of about 4 to 10 inches and only a 1/4 inch wide. The #1 was the perfect plane for her to use. She is in her late 30s, so it has nothing to do with her small hands.

jim

[Rick Rutten]

Thanks.
Rick

[Tom Henderson2]

For a smoother - #4, low angle smoother or BU smoother?

If budget is limited, any reason not to go Veritas


Hi John-

Boxers or briefs?

Passionate devotees for both, quoting comfort, "feel", appearance, etc.

High-quality work can be done with all the choices you list, so you can't go wrong.

In general, the wood won't know if the plane is bevel-up or bevel-down; it just sees a sharp edge at a given angle.

If possible, find a show nearby where you can "test drive" the LV hardware before buying.

You really can't go "wrong" within the framework you have laid out, but you may decide after a while that a different option appeals to you. The LN stuff is probably easier to resell, and seems to sell for near-new prices if in good shape and lightly used. So that may be a factor for some.

A year from now, you won't remember what you paid for the tools. And while the LN stuff is more expensive than LV, both are a significant investment. So I would suggest that you not use cost when you make your decisions; buy what you think will put the biggest smile on your face, factoring in ALL the considerations (how they work, how they feel in your hand, how they look, etc).

Enjoy the journey...

-TH

[Don Dorn]

I can somewhat speak to this. I have a LN in a 3 and 4 1/2. These were purchased in the last year but I have had a LV Low Angle Smoother for about three or four. I love the LNs, but must admit that they don't out perfrom the Veritas.

The more I use the LV, the more I like it. It isn't fussy to set up, the blade sharpens well and it gives shavings I can read newsprint through without a problem.

For awhile, I felt that I should have gotten the Bevel Up Smoother which has a wider blade that interchanges with the BU Jack and Jointer. I'm sure I'd be happy with that too, but since I have a 3 and 4 1/2, the LA Smoother fits between them much like a #4. It works perfect on a shooting board and I like it enough that I'm about to spring for a LV BU Jointer. I have a #7, that basically does the job, but if the Jointer is anything like the LA Smoother, I'm going to be very happy with it and jettison the #7.

[John Coloccia]

The Veritas BU smoother is quite a nice tool. I have one and it's as high a quality plane as you'll get from anyone. Okay, maybe you can buy a REALLY nice smoother from one of the boutique plane makers for many thousands of dollars, but for normal folk to Veritas is as nice as you'll get anywhere. I also have their low angle block plane and feel the same way about that. I also have a LN Jointer, Jack and model maker's, and feel the same way about them.

It's really hard to go wrong with Veritas or LN.

[Dan Karachio]

The day I went to buy my #4 LN, all they had was the bronze. I often worry about scratching it and that just isn't right! I love the thing to death, but a LV BU smoother is on my list too, but a jointer is next on the list. LV or LN? I have no idea.

[Derek Cohen]

Below is a link to my review of the Veritas (LV) LA Smoother. In this is a comparison with the BU Smoother.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Low%20Angle%20Smoothing%20Plane.ht ml

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Don Dorn]

Derek,

I just pushed the button on a LV BU Jointer this morning based on your review (and the quality of my own LA Smoother).

It's little wonder that they like your reviews. Looking forward to it, and am sure that I'll like it. Thanks for a comprehensive review.

Don

[John Adam]

Thanks for all the feedback...I guess I have to make a decision now....

[Steve Milito]

One difference between the BU and LA smoother is that the BU has a 2 1/4" inch blade and the LA has a 2" blade. The 2 1/4" blade is interchangeable with the BU jointer and jack planes.The BU smoother is also a bit wider.

[Brian Kincaid]

The day I went to buy my #4 LN, all they had was the bronze. I often worry about scratching it and that just isn't right! ...
Same here except it was a gift to me from my wife.

First time I used it a small piece of metal found its way to the workpiece. Left a deep gouge all the way up to the mouth of the plane. So bad I had to take some fine sand paper to the edges of the gouge to keep it from marring the workpieces.
Welcome to the shop! I thought to myself as I was crying on the inside.

About 2 weeks later I set the plane down on the bench to flip a workpiece and my 2yo son decided to pick it up. He wasn't near strong enough to hold on to it so it went crashing down into the concrete.
Welcome to the shop! I thought to myself as I was crying on the inside. Again.

I did have to adjust it after the spill, but it's a great plane to use. Also beautiful to look at dings and all.
-Brian

[paul cottingham]

the low angle smoother can be used for shooting, but its blades are not interchangeabe withe the other bevel up planes. a tough choice. Buy them both:D

[Jim Koepke]

I have been lucky. I keep a box at the end of my bench to collect plane shavings for the fireplace. The other day an enthusiastic use of a block plane got away from me. It landed softly in a box stuffed full of plane made curls.

So there is a good use for those shavings thick or thin.

:)

jim

[John Adam]

Paul,

I'd like to buy both, but I also want a #8!

It does seem like the dialog is primarily between the BU and the Low Angle, with not many votes for the standard #4 - am I inferring too much?

[paul cottingham]

I have a number 4, and am buying a LAS plane. If I could have only one, I would buy the LAS, because it is so versatile with additional blades. Also...no chipbreaker to fight with, although I suspect that may create problems of its own.

[Jim Koepke]

Paul,

I'd like to buy both, but I also want a #8!

It does seem like the dialog is primarily between the BU and the Low Angle, with not many votes for the standard #4 - am I inferring too much?

Your original question may have looked like you were only interested in the LA or the BU.


For a smoother - #4, low angle smoother or BU smoother?

For my uses, a few planes in the #4 size range of the Stanley/Bailey pedigree work fine. I have the time and desire to keep fine tuning them and have not found a need for the LA or BUs as smoothers. I do have a BU Jack, #62, from LN. It was bought mostly for a shooter, but has also had some other use.

Currently, I am more inclined toward a high angle smoother or a scrapper plane.

Yesterday a few swipes of a saw blade turned scrapper impressed me with the results on some supper swirly grain.

jim

[John Adam]

I need to win the lottery - cash for tools and the time to use them!

[paul cottingham]

Amen to that, brother.

[Steve Milito]

Paul,

I'd like to buy both, but I also want a #8!

It does seem like the dialog is primarily between the BU and the Low Angle, with not many votes for the standard #4 - am I inferring too much?

I think they are far too similar to justify both of them.

The LA is 10"x 2 1/2", with a 12 degree bed angle, and weighs 3.5 lbs. The blade that is included has a 2" 25 degree bevel (it's a BU plane).
(38 and 50 degree bevels are available as is a toothed blade).

The BU smoother is 10" x 3 1/8" with a 12 degree bed angle, and weighs 5 lbs. It includes a 2 1/4" 38 degree bevel blade. (25 and 50 degree bevels are available as is a toothed blade).

Seems to me that getting one of these planes with an extra blade would allow you to have both bevels without resharpening., and the same functionality of the two planes.

[Derek Cohen]

In a nutshell, the LA Smoother (LAS) is the all-rounder, while the BU Smoother (BUS) is a dedicated smoother.

The LAS may be used as a smoother (with a 35-50 degree bevel), large block plane (with a 25 degree bevel), and a shooting plane.

The BUS is only a smoother. It has extra mass over the same shortish length as the LAS (keeping in mind that shorter is better with a smoothing plane). It is geared towards a low centre of gravity.

With a high cutting angle, say a bevel of 50 degrees on the 12 degree bed, both planes are superior workers and their performance can stand up with the best smoothing planes anywhere, and with the low centre of gravity will do this with less effort than a BD plane with the same cutting angle. I must add, for balance, that the performance becomes increasngly more noticeable as you work with woods with increasingly greater interlocked grain. On straight grained and softer woods you would not necessarily notice any difference between one of these planes and a Stanley.

As a smoother, especially with a high cutting angle, the BUS performs slightly better than the LAS, and does so with a little more ease, owing to its greater mass.

Which one? It may come down to what you want the plane to do, or what your preference is in terms of mass.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Adam]

Here's what I decided...

I bought a nice #4 Stanley from James T. I figured than since I mostly work with fairly well-behaved wood, the price and his reputation I couldn't go wrong and could use the savings to get a stanley #8 as well.

When I get the 8, I'll have a basic set of old stanleys (4, 5, 8, block) that were reasonably priced. I can test my skill and learn about technique, wood, etc. The next plane could be a premium, but by then I hopefully will know exactly what I need....

After all, I've first used a decent hand plane about 3 weeks ago.

I may even have enough to get an 8,000 grit sharpening stone!

Thanks for all your input!

[Don Dorn]

When I get the 8, I'll have a basic set of old stanleys (4, 5, 8, block) that were reasonably priced. I can test my skill and learn about technique, wood, etc. The next plane could be a premium, but by then I hopefully will know exactly what I need....

After all, I've first used a decent hand plane about 3 weeks ago.

I may even have enough to get an 8,000 grit sharpening stone!

Thanks for all your input!

Your selection in addition to learning how to make and keep them sharp takes care of your planing needs in my opinion. Anything beyond that is gravy.

[John Adam]

But you can never have too much gravy ;)!!

[Steve Milito]

In a nutshell, the LA Smoother (LAS) is the all-rounder, while the BU Smoother (BUS) is a dedicated smoother.

The LAS may be used as a smoother (with a 35-50 degree bevel), large block plane (with a 25 degree bevel), and a shooting plane.

The BUS is only a smoother. It has extra mass over the same shortish length as the LAS (keeping in mind that shorter is better with a smoothing plane). It is geared towards a low centre of gravity.

With a high cutting angle, say a bevel of 50 degrees on the 12 degree bed, both planes are superior workers and their performance can stand up with the best smoothing planes anywhere, and with the low centre of gravity will do this with less effort than a BD plane with the same cutting angle. I must add, for balance, that the performance becomes increasngly more noticeable as you work with woods with increasingly greater interlocked grain. On straight grained and softer woods you would not necessarily notice any difference between one of these planes and a Stanley.

As a smoother, especially with a high cutting angle, the BUS performs slightly better than the LAS, and does so with a little more ease, owing to its greater mass.

Which one? It may come down to what you want the plane to do, or what your preference is in terms of mass.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Great post, thanks.

[Jim Koepke]

But you can never have too much gravy ;)!!

I'm swimming in it and still will look for chances to add a little more to the pool. :D

jim

[Chuck Harris]

As a proud owner of the bevel up jointer, jack plane and the LA smoother I have to admit that the 2 planes I seem to use the most in my shop are the Jack and LA smoother. First both can be used for shooting. Second if you work with woods prone to tear out such as figured maple they both leave an excellent finish. Lee Valley planes offer a lot of bang for the buck too.

Current LV planes

Bevel up jointer
#6 fore
Low Angle Jack
#4 1/2 Smoothing
Low angle smoothing
Large Shoulder
Medium Shoulder