Spur-drives and bowls?

[Jamie Straw]

With this early-stage bowl turning stuff, I'm trying to figure out when spur-drives are (and aren't) a good idea, and also whether I need a jumbo spur (1.5"). I have a new stock-size spur on the old Jet lathe, and for bowls it sometimes doesn't seem to grip well enough. I know I can drill a shallow hole for it to nest into -- does that significantly improve grip? I've started defaulting to a screw instead, with some inconveniece there.

Wondering if the steel of the stock spur is cheap, and are there harder ones out there. What about the jumbo spurs? At 1.5", when do they come into play? Are there particular types of wood that spurs don't work well with (green? spalted? dry?)

[Dennis Ford]

The stock spur will usually work for small to medium bowls, a two prong spur is an improvement for bowls. Neither will work in bark, you have to get the spurs into solid wood. I would be concerned that the big spur might grip wood so well that it would spin inside the morse taper, damaging both the spur and spindle. (This can happen with the stock spur also) For big pieces, I use a home-made unit that threads onto the spindle (two prongs welded onto a nut). Large spurs are available that fit into a chuck and are worth considering.

[bob svoboda]

IMHO you would be better off to use either a screw chuck or a faceplate with steel sheet metal screws rather than a drive spur.

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks, Dennis, that helps me know the things I need to think about. The spur that fits into the chuck is on a buy-list for down the road.

[Sean Hughto]

I strongly agree with Bob.

[Jamie Straw]

I've used the screw chuck the last couple of practice bowls, nice and secure. I bought a smallish aluminum faceplate, but was surprised that, for the screws that I thought the best size, the holes around the FP are too close to the shaft for the heads to fit. #8 screw shafts fit the holes nicely, but the heads bump into the shaft of the FP. Have to use #6.

[Edward Bartimmo]

Jamie,

You might consider a steb drive instead of a spur drive. Instead of either 2 or 4 large blades it has a continuous series of smaller pointed teeth creating the ring. I would guess that there are more than 20 teeth. As a result the teeth don't have to be driven into the wood very deep. Since the teeth are smaller and not as deep in the wood you have less risk when you have a catch. The teeth simply cut a shallow circular groove in the wood, whereas a spur is in deep and you are more likely to have the wood thrown off the lathe. Tighten up the tailstock to re-engage the teeth into the workpiece and keep turning.

As to the aluminum faceplates if you are using the narrowest one (2" aluminum) then you're right that a #6 screw is perfect. On the 2.5" and larger faceplates #8 and #10 screws work fine.

[Mike Minto]

Jamie, I have the spur drive made by the folks who import the Stubby lathe - it screws onto the threads of your lathe's spindle. No worries about galling the inside of your spindle with it, and it holds great.

[Allen Neighbors]

I use a spur drive with a #2 morse taper, but I put it into my chuck, ala the pic. It's sticking out to show the morse taper... I slide it into the center of the jaws up to the joint of the drive head to the taper... (the black part).
I also have one that is made for the chuck on my large lathe.
Spur drives of any sort do not work well at all in bark, and not very well in green wood. However I use mine in green wood all the time. If you drill a hole down to solid wood, the spur drive will hold better, but if you use a drive like I do, drilling the hole makes the blank "jam" against the chuck jaws, also... sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not.

[John Keeton]

You could multiply my experience by 10x and I still would be way behind some of the posters that have commented. But, for what it is worth, I have never used a spur or steb drive for a bowl or HF - even to start them.

[Matt Hutchinson]

I am kinda in the chuck/faceplate school. I have never roughed a bowl between centers. I usually shoot for the faceplates and screw chucks.

[Alan Trout]

I love my Best Wood tools jumbo drive center. If you like to start stuff between centers this is the best I have found. http://bestwoodtools.stores.yahoo.net/2flutquiccha.html

They work fabulous, secure, and fast. I recommend them highly.

Good Luck

Alan

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks for the tip and the link, Alan. I haven't been doing this long enough to know what I like:p but I've figured I'll soon want one of those chuck-it-up spur drives. I see in the Craft catalog, they have a Stebdrive that mounts the same way. That's a neat site, BTW, I'm looking at their modular tool rests, especially the bowl set. Thanks!

[Mike Peace]

Here is a couple of pictures of the bowl driver I made. It can be used instead of a spur center to allow you to change the axis of a bowl on the lathe. This allows you to better align the grain on the bowl. You can dedicate a faceplate to one or put a tenon on it like I did. This is especially useful for larger heavy blanks - the kind that might wreak havoc with a spur center with a MT.

You can find plans for this on Al Stirt's website www.alstirt.com (http://www.alstirt.com)

[Richard Madison]

Jamie,
I start all non-segmented bowls to about 13" diameter between centers using the stock spur drive. On larger pieces and harder woods I cut a cross (+) with a hammer and old chisel (sharpened on both sides to make a V cut). This usually provides an adequate grip for the spur. Usually not needed on soft woods and end grain turnings.

[Steve Kubien]

I love starting a bowl with a spur drive and a live centre. This way I have complete control over the orientation of the growth rings plus I can find the balance point and turn faster sooner without vibration. You simply cannot do this with a faceplate or screw chuck. As for type of spur drive, I use a 4 prong one from PennState. It was cheap, costing around $15 or $20 but what is nice about it is the the spurs are steep. The drive that came with my Nova lathe is a worthless piece of junk and was quickly thrown away.

YMMV

[Steve Mawson]

Agree with John, use the spur drive for spindle turnings. Only time I ever got a spur stuck was trying to start a bowl with a spur drive and the bowl was not that big. There is a guy in St. Charles MO that sells a spur drive that goes on the spindle threads that looks heavy enough to start a bowl.

[Mike Minto]

Here is a couple of pictures of the bowl driver I made. It can be used instead of a spur center to allow you to change the axis of a bowl on the lathe. This allows you to better align the grain on the bowl. You can dedicate a faceplate to one or put a tenon on it like I did. This is especially useful for larger heavy blanks - the kind that might wreak havoc with a spur center with a MT.

You can find plans for this on Al Stirt's website www.alstirt.com (http://www.alstirt.com)

Mike, really cool driver - had seen Al's plans, but never one that someone had made. Too cool!

[Jamie Straw]

I found the perfect old chisel last night, will sharpen. I was using an old spur drive, but it doesn't really work well.

[Jamie Straw]

Had vibration problems last night, a pretty small bowl too. Something wrong with the way I snugged the tailstock up, as when I moved it away (using screw chuck), things settled down. Re: the Penn State spur, no problem with the tip of any spurs kinda folding over? That's what I'm wary of, and wondering about harder steel.

[Thom Sturgill]

My teacher always uses a spur drive and live center. I have occasionally used the screw chuck and only once a face plate. The spur center allows better balancing of the piece before turning and, being lazy, is quicker. I now chuck the standard MT2 center in the chuck and do not even have to remove/ install the chuck when starting a piece.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I used the Nova wood screw, and I got it to slip a couple times, and I only have a mini. So since then, I'm back to the stock spur drive. You can use a wood mallet and whack the spur into your wood. Works great. You can even make the mallet a turning project! :D

[Steve Kubien]

Re: the Penn State spur, no problem with the tip of any spurs kinda folding over? That's what I'm wary of, and wondering about harder steel.

This has not been a problem with me, in the slightest. I've been using the PSI ones (1" and 5/8") for over two years. They are great value and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them again.

[Steve Kubien]

I'm back to the stock spur drive. You can use a wood mallet and whack the spur into your wood.:D Glad the Nova spur driev works better for you than it did me. I just couldn't get good purchase in wet wood.

[Denis Puland]

turners who do not start their bowls between centres.

As Mike said it gives you the opportunity to balance and more importantly to change the orientation to maximise or centre the grain features in your bowl or vase or?? as you ruff it out and get to see some of the real neat grain features.

I personally almost always use the spur drive to start virtually all my turnings. I ruff turn and put a spigot on for the chuck to grab onto.

My blanks are almost all green wood and almost all with bark on.

If you have a spindle lock on your head stock just apply some tail stock pressure wiggle your turning blank back and forth to seat your spur drive.
I use the stock spur drive to ruff turn heavy green 20 inch blanks with the occasional need to re seat the drive.

It sure is a lot faster then face plate mounting in my opinion.

And as an extra bonus you can start with almost any kind of odd shaped piece with no need to get that flat spot or screw hole in the right place to mount your screw chuck or your face plate.

Denis

[Jamie Straw]

I used the Nova wood screw, and I got it to slip a couple times, and I only have a mini. So since then, I'm back to the stock spur drive. You can use a wood mallet and whack the spur into your wood. Works great. You can even make the mallet a turning project! :D

Hi, Kyle. How sharp and distinct are the threads on the Nova screw? The one that came with the Talon chuck is wicked! Can't imagine it slipping. BTW, I have a fabulous chunk of Lignum vitae that I'm going to make a mallet out of some day. Came from a woodworker's estate and it's probably 35 years old, just sitting there waxed and dry and ready to go.:D

PS: Tell me you take the spur out of the lathe before you whack the wood onto it. Bonnie Klein chastised us for even thinking we might do that while the spur was in the MT. Bad for the bearings, evidently!

[Curt Fuller]

You could multiply my experience by 10x and I still would be way behind some of the posters that have commented. But, for what it is worth, I have never used a spur or steb drive for a bowl or HF - even to start them.

I don't think it really has anything to do with experience. I would say it's more a matter of what you get accustomed to. I can't remember the last time I used anything but a spur drive to start anything that I needed to turn a tenon on first before I could mount it in my chuck. I think all the above mentioned methods are good and if thats what you feel comfortable with the go for it. I personally like using a spur for two reasons. First, it's quick and easy. But the second reason I've found over time is that if a spur slips and strips out the wood, the wood just quits turning. With a face plate or screw chuck if you get a bad catch while trying to round a chunk of wood it will usually mess up the screws in the face plate or strip out the hole from the screw chuck and then it's a PITA to remount it. With a spur you can just apply more pressure from the tailstock and you're back in business. And another positive of using a spur between centers is that you have the exact center of the tenon marked when it comes time to reverse it and turn off the foot.

[Allen Neighbors]

Glad the Nova spur driev works better for you than it did me. I just couldn't get good purchase in wet wood.
Steve, I took my Dremel tool, with one of their re-enforced cutoff blades, and gave my Nova Chuck Spur Drive a tiny bit longer, and sharper teeth.
Every time I used it on a green blank, it would likely cut a circle into it. I dulled the drive edges also, which made it not as likely to cut that circle... it still does sometimes, but it's not as often.

[Jamie Straw]

This is a fun thread! I didn't realize there would be so many POVs.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

PS: Tell me you take the spur out of the lathe before you whack the wood onto it. Bonnie Klein chastised us for even thinking we might do that while the spur was in the MT. Bad for the bearings, evidently!

No, since it's a mini, I can turn it on it's side and hit the lathe. :D Yes that is bad for the bearings. I hit the spur directly into the wood. Without the lathe... That's why you need a mallet, hitting the spur with a metal hammer will damage it. Works great.
I just recently learned the trick that Denis mentioned. Works really good for the non variable speed lathe users. Gently seat the blank in the lathe centers so it can freely turn on the pins. the heaviest part will drop to the bottom. back off the TS and move the blank. Repeat until the blank is balanced. Then you can apply pressure, lock the headstock, and turn the blank back and forth. This starts the spur cutting into the blank. Tighten the TS, rock, repeat until the spur is well seated. You can rough just about anything. As you rough the blank, and start to get it a little balanced, you can move the blank to balance and/or save the features you want. Just another POV.

[Jamie Straw]

[snip...] I just recently learned the trick that Denis mentioned. Works really good for the non variable speed lathe users. Gently seat the blank in the lathe centers so it can freely turn on the pins. the heaviest part will drop to the bottom. back off the TS and move the blank. Repeat until the blank is balanced. Then you can apply pressure, lock the headstock, and turn the blank back and forth. This starts the spur cutting into the blank. Tighten the TS, rock, repeat until the spur is well seated. You can rough just about anything. As you rough the blank, and start to get it a little balanced, you can move the blank to balance and/or save the features you want. Just another POV.

Wow, thanks for that tip! Will try it with my next bowl.

[Edward Bartimmo]

Due to owning a couple of different chucks I have the screw drives for both the Oneway and Vicmarc. Both are well made with the Oneway screw a little beefier (larger diameter screw) with a less threads (lower threads per inch) and deeper grooves, which I found works better with green wood. Whereas, the Vicmarc has higher TPI and shallower grooves which works better for drier wood stock. The screws come with the chuck, but I think that you can also buy them seperately.

Since I have both screws I play favorites depending upon what I am turning...green or dry. Either one will work great. Since the Oneway screw is a larger diameter I know it works fine in the VicMarc chuck, but I can't recall if the Vicmarc screw fits into the Oneway chuck.

[Steve Kubien]

I just recently learned the trick that Denis mentioned. Works really good for the non variable speed lathe users. Gently seat the blank in the lathe centers so it can freely turn on the pins. the heaviest part will drop to the bottom. back off the TS and move the blank. Repeat until the blank is balanced. Then you can apply pressure, lock the headstock, and turn the blank back and forth. This starts the spur cutting into the blank. Tighten the TS, rock, repeat until the spur is well seated. You can rough just about anything. As you rough the blank, and start to get it a little balanced, you can move the blank to balance and/or save the features you want. Just another POV.

This sounds an awful lot like what Lyle Jamieson teaches/preaches. This way you can get to much higher rpms MUCH faster which means you can turn MUCH faster. Hey, a 6" unbalanced blank can make a mid-size lathe like my Nova 1624 vibrate pretty good if you get the rpms up. Using this method (which you cannot do with a faceplate) I can start spinning at 1500rpms + which makes roughing out a treat. Lyle's techniques may not be for everybody but anyone who wants to become a better educated turner owes it o themselves to catch his tour or at least watch his dvds.