The Scraper: A Cheater's Tool?

[Greg Taylor]

As a newbie I have been struck by how often comments are made in DVDs by the pros that using a particular gouge or skew technique eliminates the need for using a scraper. One definitely gets the impression that the scraper is a tool with a stigma attached to it. Is this because the pros have to work fast and efficiently and eliminating an additional tool is advantageous? Or is there a bigger thing going on here? Like "anyone can use a scraper but only people with developed technique can get a finish-quality cut with a gouge or a skew." This latter may well be true because I certainly have found a scraper can tidy up a lot of my poor technique. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to use all the tools to their full potential...and practicing to get there. Hope I'm not starting a war of a debate (actually that would be fun to read) but I'd love to hear opinions from the old hands about the status of the scraper.

[Aaron Wingert]

I'd say that people that classify the scraper as a cheater's tool are just being snobbish. Kind of like flyfishing purists that frown on guys that use bait to catch fish.

The skew may be a more elegant way of doing things and requires a certain talent that many do not posess, but scrapers certainly have their place and are one of the handiest tools in my turning tool arsenal.

[Sean Hughto]

I love my scrapers. Raffan and I think Conover both think they are great tools as well and that those who turn their nose up at them are misguided. I agree.

I've been turning less than a year, but have been a flat world woodworker for a very long time. The scraper thing kind of reminds me of the dovetail (or more broadly, handsawing) purist issue that comes up in cabinet making where some folks think that dovetails or mortise and tenons achieved with some judicious chisel paring are somehow "cheating" as one should hit perfection right off the saw. When you look at the finished product, no one can tell how you arrived there. While a production producer might need a process that saves time by getting to the desired end as directly and quickly as possible, but there is risk involved - make a mistake and the piece can be ruined. A hobbiest can afford to take what may in some cases be the slightly slower, but often more certain, route. In the end I think the idea that one way is "right" and the other is "cheating" is utter nonsense. Have fun, make something great - I don't care how you get to the end as long as the product is excellent and the process was fun for you!

[Tim Rinehart]

I wouldn't say a 'cheater's' tool, but it has it's place. I have only one scraper, a 1/4" thick, 1" wide rounded bottom that I got with set of BB tools when I first started. I have used that tool quite a bit, but am using it less and less as I find other ways of cleaning up bottom of bowls, what I used it for originally.
I think using scrapers on wood or grain directions that don't result in tear out of the wood fibers is absolutely a great application of it, and regardless, if it gives the results you want...who cares what anyone thinks. Be sure you are keeping it nice and sharp, with a burr (burnished edge) for softer hardwoods, and nearly clean burr free edge for hardest woods. (my approach, anyway)

If you find you are getting tear out on a bowl bottom where using the scraper, consider other options, including a different grind on bowl gouge that allows carrying cut all the way into the center of the piece, or use of a round carbide (Hunter style) cutter at the bottom.

I have a tool like this that I made from 1/2" round bar, and mounted a 8mm round insert from Carbide Depot, and I start it at the center and ride its bevel all the way to the sides with excellent control, good slicing and clean cut. Carbide takes practice, but is a great option for me in some places where I used to try and use a scraper, but often was reaching too far over the tool rest. I even considered a Heavy Duty (really thick) scraper at one point to do just that, but don't think I need it now.
In other words...there are more than one way to do almost any cut or turning section. Use whatever works for you.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I've also often wondered about scraper snobs... I use one. I "cheat" I guess. I like to make boxes, and I just can't get a gouge to work on the corners. I also sand a LOT, for you sanding snobs. LOL My favorite tool is my 80 grit gouge. One of these days, I'll get good enough to be a scraper and sandpaper snob too, I hope.

I also use bait to fish! :eek:

[Thom Sturgill]

I don't know if two years counts as 'an old-timer' but I'll stick my 2cents in anyway. I don't think any tool is a cheat. Well, let me take that back, I don't think any hand held tool is a cheat. ;)

One thing I've noticed is that some of the people that complain about using a scraper just don't know how - how to sharpen or how to scrape. I sharpen my lathe scraper pretty much the same way that I sharpen a cabinet scraper. Of course its a little thicker... Speaking of which, the thicker the better since it often hangs quite a bit off the tool rest. I've seen people take off shear sheets of shaving pretty much the same as when cabinet scraping or using a finely fettled plane.

A 'negative rake' grind lets you keep the scraper flat on the tool rest and makes it easier to use. Stuart Batty is a big enthusiast for this design.

This does NOT mean that you should forgo trying to get clean finish cuts without using the scraper, just learn to use it correctly for when you do need it.

[Sean Hughto]

I'm no blade geometry whiz, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but aren't some of those shearing cuts with an irish grind gouge where the long inside bottom bevel is riding the wood surface rather "scraperish"?

http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/images/WT/articles/TheBowlGouge/gallery/IMAGE-24.jpg

[Jeremy Tomlinson]

If there is anything that can be classified a cheat, its sandpaper. If a tool can render a surface ready for finish its not a cheat and in most of those cases its not the tool but the user that makes it happen.

[Wayne Hendrix]

I dont think that scrapping is cheating at all. I think the idea from the videos that I have seen is that you can achieve the same finish either way and that the ability to control the gouge efficiently enough to achieve a smooth finish is more a goal of gouge use that will allow you to make more advanced cuts ie. super thin walls on the bowl. I will continue to use my scrapper, and for that matter my sandpaper, to give me the results I want as long as I need them. If I was to eschew those two tools I might as well stop trying to turn anything but pens, and even some of those.

[Reed Gray]

Sean,
That cut is referred to as a 'shear scrape', or I call it a shear cut. The definition for a 'shear scrape' is one where you are not rubbing the bevel. To me there are shear cuts, and scraping cuts, and whether or not you are rubbing the bevel makes little or no difference in the quality of the cut. The angle at which the cutting edge makes contact makes a lot of difference. At 90 degrees to the wood rotation, like when the scraper is flat on the tool rest, this is a scraping cut. You can do this with a scraper or a gouge, but to me, as the name implies, the scraper is a much more efficient tool. If you drop the handle on your gouge, you will get more of a shear cut, and perhaps because of the curvature of the nose of the gouge, you are getting more of a shear angle on the nose, and a scraping cut with the wings, no matter what the handle is doing.

I started playing with scrapers a few years back because I knew they used to be the main bowl turning tool, and the end product came out just fine. I wanted to see what the old school turners knew that I didn't. I can turn a bowl to finish completely with a scraper. It is the same steel as the gouges, so you can get them just as sharp. You can burnish a burr on a scraper, which does give the finest cutting edge you can get on one. Held at a 45 or sharper angle to the wood for a shear cut, you can get a finished surface that is good as any that you can get with a gouge. The only difference is that if you finish cut with a gouge while you are rubbing the bevel, you burnish the wood a bit and it looks more shiny. You can't burnish a burr on a gouge, or at least, I don't know of any one who has tried or done it. I have found that using a gouge for a shear cut, it works better if you hone off the grinder burr on the wings.

It kind of reminds me of the tenon vs recess debate. They both work if you know how to use them.

Proud scraper user!!!!!!!

robo hippy

[Paul Atkins]

Cheating implies that there is a passable result without working so hard. I suppose the electric motor is cheating too and maybe the lathe itself as you could carve the whole thing by hand. I produce all sorts of architectural turnings from porch posts to rosettes most of which include the use of scrapers for speed, consistency, and finish. I could not make a few dozen rosettes in an afternoon without scrapers and make any money. For consistent coves of small radius for ballusters or table legs a scraper is the way to go. I love a sharp gouge and the way it cuts, and a sharp scraper that works as it should is a pleasant experience too. They are each different tools for different uses as I see it. My flat fingernail tool is used as a cutting tool and a scraper too. (Yes, Joshua, I'm working on the video.)

[Frank Van Atta]

What's the "proper" tool to use? Whatever works for you. I use scrapers and "180 grit gouges" regularly. I don't know about other people, but my customers only care about the final result, not how I achieved it.

[William Bachtel]

Scrapers scrape and Gouges cut Thats the differents. Both take skill you can't cheat, I use scrapers on burls and find they do a good job, and leave a clean surface.

[Robert McGowen]

Anything more than a hand ax to cut your blanks and a human powered lathe is "cheating." It just depends on where you arbitrarily decide to become a snob. :rolleyes: Scrape away!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A scraper is just another weapon in you arsenal for turning. I use bowl gouges, scrapers and..... If Bill Grumbine can recommend the use of the "80 grit gouge" it's good enough for me! I'm no snob!:rolleyes:

[Allen Neighbors]

I had a friend stop over on a trip. He's a beginning woodturner. I showed him how I use a bowl gouge, a skew, and a scraper. The scraper can make just as smooth a cut as a bowl gouge and a skew, if they are held against the wood at the correct angle and the bevel is rubbing.
I have some Oland Tools, that use metal lathe cutters. People say they are scrapers, but if they are ground with the right edge, and held at the right angle to the wood, they will make cuts... not scrapes.
Just depends on how you hold the tool to the wood.
Scrapers are the principal tool used by a lot of Japanese turners... and I'd be willing to bet they're don't feel like they're cheating.
I think most really good turners can use a gouge so well all the way through a bowl, that they don't need to use a scraper.... I can't do that... so I use scrapers quite a bit... it covers up a lot of my shaky hands problems... :D

[John Hart]

Everything is a scraper. Sheesh...get your microscope out and look at sandpaper....it's a scraper too.

A scraper is a cheat??......hrrumph....that's just someone saying, "If you don't turn like me, then you're no good."

I say again....hrrumph!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Everything is a scraper. Sheesh...get your microscope out and look at sandpaper....it's a scraper too.

A scraper is a cheat??......hrrumph....that's just someone saying, "If you don't turn like me, then you're no good."

I say again....hrrumph!!

Well Mr. Hart....that sure appears to me to be a lot of "Hrrumphing" going on!

A "hrrumph" isn't vulgar or obscene so that it violates the TOSs does it?:confused::rolleyes:

[alex carey]

I have 3 scrappers, all of them inside bowl scrapers, I've found it much easier and faster to use the scrapers at the very end. 90% of the bowl will be turned with a gouge since it is faster but to get a really clean cut with a gouge is much harder imo then a big scraper. So I always finish up my bowls with a scraper.

I have never met any gouge snobs or watched any dvd's at all but if they're out there they don't know what they're missing.

[John Hart]

....A "hrrumph" isn't vulgar or obscene so that it violates the TOSs does it?:confused::rolleyes:

Sorry, Mr Fitzgerald sir. Didn't mean to chaff your tender sensibilities.:p

Is it vulgar? I'm not at liberty to say. :)

[Matt Hutchinson]

Another vote for "scraping doesn't constitute cheating." I am glad Paul Atkins chimed in on this one, cuz he pretty much stated everything I was thinking except he has the experience to back it up.

Woodturning has classically been about producing a product for function, even if it's elegant and fancy, in a quick and efficient manner. In some of the old woodturning instruction books I've seen, scrapers are a traditional tool used particularly when forming coves, beads, spherical finials, and spheres. But at times "cutting" tools were used as scrapers too.

Hutch

[David E Keller]

I'll use any tool at any time to get a good finish on a given project. I'd turn with a hammer and a circular saw if it would cut down on the sanding at the end of a piece. It that's cheating, then count me as a cheater.

One of my old football coaches used to say, "Keller, if you're not cheating, you're not trying!" How's that for a role model?

[Jon Lanier]

Any way to get the job done. Who cares what other's think.

[Philip Duffy]

I think we all must recognize that there are hugely successful turners who use nothing but scrapers. My friend, Myron Curtis, about 88 yrs old, is the best architectural turner I know of and he owns no other tools, save scrapers. When you see his finished products it makes a believer out of you. A tool, is a tool. The end result is what matters.

[Barry Elder]

A tool is a tool is a tool! Your choice!

[Scott Lux]

It's horses fr courses. Sometimes the gouge, sometimes the scraper. Always the sandpaper. :mad:

As for the fishing analogy, same goes. I love flinging flies. But when I want to catch carp, gotta have bait.

[John Beaver]

One of my favorite sayings, in many walks of life, fits here too I think.

"It's the indian, not the arrow."

[Bernie Weishapl]

If a tool is made it is made to use. If a scraper is a cheat then I guess the easy rougher would be a even bigger cheater.:eek::D

[Curt Fuller]

I say again....hrrumph!!

Amen to John's Hrrumph!!!

I say that if you're happy with the finished product, it only matters to you how you got there.

[Mike Lipke]

If a scraper is cheating, then am I to understand that I should sell my stock of 60 grit bowl gouges?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

(Yes, Joshua, I'm working on the video.)
Hahahaha. I just read this and I started laughing out loud. Luckily thanks to a round of layoffs and other leaving here at work I am alone in this row of 8 cubes. So I think I got away with it and no one thinks I am crazy.

I just hope I haven't become too big a pest Paul!

Oh and I just had to comment on David's post here in this thread. I thought that this comment:


"I'd turn with a hammer and a circular saw if it would cut down on the sanding at the end of a piece."

was both pretty darn accurate and amazingly funny. I hadn't realized how far I had come in sanding until recently when I was cleaning up my storage area and looked at some of my early bowls. I had tried to sand out 1/8" - 1/4" deep picked out grain on the end of the bowl. In some cases after hours of sanding I had passable results. Now I am getting away 99% of the time with about a minute of sanding per piece. Pretty darn awesome when things start working for you instead of against.

But then while feeling pleased with myself I got the chance to hit the Utah Woodturners Symposium this year for the first time. Watching the true pro's do what they do showed me that while I am making progress I have about 29 years worth of practice to go. :)

Joshua

[David DeCristoforo]

Some of the replies to this have given me a good chuckle. But I end up thinking that this is like the age old argument about whether or not using power tools is "cheating" as opposed to doing everything "by hand". My answer to that has always been "Go out into the woods with nothing but your hands. Find a tree. Make something out of it. No, you can't use that rock. That would be cheating." What a ludicrous idea. There is no such thing as "cheating". You use what works for you. I've seen people do amazing things with a bowl gouge. But I've also seen some awesome pieces that were never touched with one. It makes absolutely no difference. If it works for you... do it. Cut it... scrape it... grind it... beat it out with a sledge hammer. Who cares? If someone wants to enjoy mastery of a particular tool or technique, fine. The process is paramount to many. But just as many are driven by the need to manifest the vision of the object and are unconcerned with the details of how that is accomplished.

[John Hart]

Holy Cow David!!

"The process is paramount to many.
But, just as many are driven by the need to manifest the vision of the object and are unconcerned with the details of how that is accomplished."

That belongs on the back cover of a book!!! :)

Sorry...I just like cool sentences. :o:rolleyes:

[Ernie Nyvall]

I don't think anyone should ever stoop to using a scraper, so if you will all send me what you have, I'll discard them properly.

Back to your first sentence Greg, though I haven't seen the videos you are referring to, it seems the pros are just trying to show a way to do something that may take a step out of your turning for a particular kind of cut. For myself I can make a more finished cut with my bowl gouge on the outside of a form than with my scraper. I just keep bruising the wood with the scraper on the outside, and it takes heavier sandpaper. With the bowl gouge I can start sanding with paper as high as 50 grit. :o

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ernie,

You did mean "at least 50 grit" didn't you?
;)

[Tim Rinehart]

Some of the replies to this have given me a good chuckle. But I end up thinking that this is like the age old argument about whether or not using power tools is "cheating" as opposed to doing everything "by hand". My answer to that has always been "Go out into the woods with nothing but your hands. Find a tree. Make something out of it. No, you can't use that rock. That would be cheating." What a ludicrous idea. There is no such thing as "cheating". You use what works for you. I've seen people do amazing things with a bowl gouge. But I've also seen some awesome pieces that were never touched with one. It makes absolutely no difference. If it works for you... do it. Cut it... scrape it... grind it... beat it out with a sledge hammer. Who cares? If someone wants to enjoy mastery of a particular tool or technique, fine. The process is paramount to many. But just as many are driven by the need to manifest the vision of the object and are unconcerned with the details of how that is accomplished.

Translated from Latin..."It is the results, not the process" !!

I love online translation tools. But regardless, David so eloquently put it how we've all been saying. Do what works.... er, correction...
" operor quis officina " :D

[Scott Hackler]

I have and more importantly USE several different scrapers. One of my favorites is a Sorby giant bowl scraper. I have nicknamed this dude as the butterknife. It works great for easing and smoothing the inside curves, but its so darn big that when you have a "boo boo" its a real nasty one. I even use my skew it used as a scraper, A LOT! :). Having said that, I dont use them nearly as much as I used to, but inside some forms it is almost impossible to get a clean cut with a gouge because of the angle required. (ps I will sometimes turn the bowl gouge upside down and use it as a small scraper!)

Heck almost every hollowing tool is essentially a very small scraper.

I say use what works for you, but dont forget that you may have a tool in your collection that works even better... .if you just knew how to use it at the master level. We are all in a constant state of learning.

[Neil Strong]

Worth mentioning that there was a time that some of us can remember (I guess that puts me into your 'old timer' bucket) before we had what we now refer to as a bowl gouge when scrapers ruled supreme on faceplate work.

I just love all the great bowl gouges that we now have, but reckon good scraper technique is just as challenging to master as good bowl gouge technique. So I just ignore the scraper phobia of some gouge snobs.

No doubt some turners have such good gouge technique that they minimise or eliminate the need for scraping, but few have such good scraper technique that they completely eliminate the need for abrasives...:)

.....

[Bryan Morgan]

As a newbie I have been struck by how often comments are made in DVDs by the pros that using a particular gouge or skew technique eliminates the need for using a scraper. One definitely gets the impression that the scraper is a tool with a stigma attached to it. Is this because the pros have to work fast and efficiently and eliminating an additional tool is advantageous? Or is there a bigger thing going on here? Like "anyone can use a scraper but only people with developed technique can get a finish-quality cut with a gouge or a skew." This latter may well be true because I certainly have found a scraper can tidy up a lot of my poor technique. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to use all the tools to their full potential...and practicing to get there. Hope I'm not starting a war of a debate (actually that would be fun to read) but I'd love to hear opinions from the old hands about the status of the scraper.

If the final product is great and makes you happy, what difference does it make what tool was used to get there?

[Curt Fuller]

So, if the scraper can be considered a cheater's tool, does that make the myriad of carbide cutter tools that are flooding the turning market the ultimate cheater's tool. After all, they promote the ease of turning without the complications of learning to ride the bevel, etc. AND you don't even need to learn to sharpen them. Rotate the cutter until it's dull all around, throw it a way and put a new one on. I could free up quite a bit of workbench space by getting rid of my grinder, let alone the time it free's up by not sharpening.

I don't really think any tool can be considered cheating. But I also think that regardless of what innovative tools come along, there will always be a need for the good old gouges and skews and the skills necessary to use them.

[Reed Gray]

I didn't know there were so many scraper users. I am not alone any more.

robo hippy

[Hilel Salomon]

I consider anything more than a foot pedal driven lathe is a cheater's tool. Scrapers, gouges and skews are not for real men or real women for that matter !!! I know that when it's about 100 degrees outside, any motor driven tool such as a chainsaw, mower or weedwacker is only for sissies. Inside the house, real men and women don't use air conditioners but rather hand fans.

Now you all excuse me but my wife was cooking a father's day meal -over an open fire of course- and the kitchen drapes are ablaze.

Now in all honesty some of my friends consider sarcasm and facetiousness a cheater's verbal tool

Happy Father's Day ,

Hilel.

[Allen Neighbors]

I consider anything more than a foot pedal driven lathe is a cheater's tool. Scrapers, gouges and skews are not for real men or real women for that matter !!! I know that when it's about 100 degrees outside, any motor driven tool such as a chainsaw, mower or weedwacker is only for sissies. Inside the house, real men and women don't use air conditioners but rather hand fans.

Now you all excuse me but my wife was cooking a father's day meal -over an open fire of course- and the kitchen drapes are ablaze.

Now in all honesty some of my friends consider sarcasm and facetiousness a cheater's verbal tool

Happy Father's Day ,

Hilel.

Mr. Salomon, you're a nut. :D

[Ralph Lindberg]

I consider anything more than a foot pedal driven lathe is a cheater's tool. ....

Got one

http://pics.livejournal.com/hrollaug/pic/0007087w.jpg

[John Hart]

Got one

Cheater....you used metal screws and wingnuts. :D

[Ken Ferrell]

So, if the scraper can be considered a cheater's tool, does that make the myriad of carbide cutter tools that are flooding the turning market the ultimate cheater's tool. After all, they promote the ease of turning without the complications of learning to ride the bevel, etc. AND you don't even need to learn to sharpen them. Rotate the cutter until it's dull all around, throw it a way and put a new one on. I could free up quite a bit of workbench space by getting rid of my grinder, let alone the time it free's up by not sharpening.

I don't really think any tool can be considered cheating. But I also think that regardless of what innovative tools come along, there will always be a need for the good old gouges and skews and the skills necessary to use them.

I make one version of the myriad of carbide tools the Woodchuck line, and I still use my Thompson bowl gouge and Sorby skew, in fact I've been looking for a decent inside bowl scraper. One comment made by the Secretary of the North Florida Woodturners when doing a review on my tool was 100% dead on, its not a good tool for beginning turners, in that they need to know how to sharpen their tools.
I was a machine tool instructor and the first thing we taught after basic safety was how to sharpen a HSS lathe bit and drill bits the same thing holds true for woodturning, interchangeable carbide inserts are great, they are faster and a bit more convenient, but I hope they never replace good quality HSS or Powdered Metal tools. I still believe that "it's a poor craftsman that lays blame for his shoddy work upon his tools"

Ken Ferrell

[John Hart]

Woo Hoo!!! Another Keeper Quote!! :)

"It's a poor craftsman that lays blame for his shoddy work upon his tools" ~ Ken Ferrell

[Rich Aldrich]

They might be a cheaters tool, but boy do they work well! I like some of the other comments, especially about a motor being a cheaters tool, etc.

The goal is to turn out the best quality work you can. I really dont care what others think about my methods as long as they are safe.