laguan tss vs hammer k3

[Bill May]

Up till last week was dead set on getting a laguna tss , but while talking to a friend he mentioned he had saw a hammer k3 and was impressed. I am not opposed to it but everything i have heard is the fence is sub standard.Then i got thinking it wouldnt be an issue since i still have a unisaw with beis. Any input would be appreciated greatly. :confused:

[Tom W Armstrong]

It's a good time to buy a K3, as Hammer is having a sale on them right now. You will find that Felder/Hammer has a excellent reputation here at SMC. I recently got the Hammer A3-31 12" J/P and am completely satisfied with the J/P as well as the great service from Hammer. When I upgrade from my contractor saw it will be to the K3.

[Van Huskey]

That might be like asking Duke or UNC in a room full of people wearing dark blue. Hammer has an excellent rep here and deserved. The Hammer is on the low end of European slider quality but also at the low end of the price scale for Euro sliders as well. However, when compared to the non-Euro sliders its sits well toward if not at the head of the class.

I have a pretty simplistic but I think well reasoned view, I wouldn't buy a slider from Laguna when I had a comparable Felder group option by the same token I wouldn't buy a Felder group bandsaw if I had a comparable Laguna option. My point is there are horses for courses and Felder has the advantage in sliders like Laguna does in bandsaws.

Also pricewise this is THE time in recent memory to buy a K3.

[Joe Jensen]

That might be like asking Duke or UNC in a room full of people wearing dark blue. Hammer has an excellent rep here and deserved. The Hammer is on the low end of European slider quality but also at the low end of the price scale for Euro sliders as well. However, when compared to the non-Euro sliders its sits well toward if not at the head of the class.

I have a pretty simplistic but I think well reasoned view, I wouldn't buy a slider from Laguna when I had a comparable Felder group option by the same token I wouldn't buy a Felder group bandsaw if I had a comparable Laguna option. My point is there are horses for courses and Felder has the advantage in sliders like Laguna does in bandsaws.

Also pricewise this is THE time in recent memory to buy a K3.

I agree in concept, but ACM in Italy makes the heavy duty line for Laguna and the bandsaws for Felder. The saws are essentially identical. I had a Laguna LT16HD and I was able to buy a used 21" Felder FB540 cheap enough that it I pocketed $300 in the upgrade.

The knobs, hinges, fences, doors, frames, safety interlock, lower blade guard.....all identical. Both machines are manufactured by ACM.

Here are pics of them side by side. Note that they are brothers :rolleyes:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Felder%20Bandsaw/_NIK4899.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Felder%20Bandsaw/_NIK4896.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Felder%20Bandsaw/_NIK4894.jpg

[C Scott McDonald]

I went through the same decision. I got the Hammer because it was on sale. I would do it again. I went to the show in Vegas last year to look at the TSS and Laguna didnt even bother to bring one which I though was kind of odd.

Not sure what fence issues there are.

Good luck on either way you go.

Scott

[Van Huskey]

I agree in concept, but ACM in Italy makes the heavy duty line for Laguna and the bandsaws for Felder. The saws are essentially identical. I had a Laguna LT16HD and I was able to buy a used 21" Felder FB540 cheap enough that it I pocketed $300 in the upgrade.

The knobs, hinges, fences, doors, frames, safety interlock, lower blade guard.....all identical. Both machines are manufactured by ACM.

Here are pics of them side by side. Note that they are brothers :rolleyes:



They are brothers but there in lies the key to why I would not buy a Felder BS new. They are paternal brothers not identical twins. Each company specs their saws differently and the Felders are specced as "traditional" bandsaws and not the current US trend toward resaw. For example you can not buy a LT18 equal in the Felder line. To get the 18" resaw capability in the Felder line you have to buy the FB 740 with a price about $2,500 MORE than the LT18, although it is a very different saw. When you get as close as possible to the same saw the Felder is more money and as you point out built by the same factory. The Laguna saws also have different motors, often with more horsepower (due in part to the extra resaw height). The intro price on the FB 600 is very good but if you look closely it is not a brother but a cousin, given the "regular" price point it is logical to conclude the cousin is from lesser breed stock. Finally, the Laguna saws come with Laguna ceramic guides and though some favor Euro guides the Laguna guides are probably held in higher regard by most users. In the end my position is Laguna knows bandsaws and specs them for American users and what they/we want in a BS and their saws are different from the Felder saws, plus you get more for less with Laguna as well. In the same light Felder knows sliders.

As an aside Agazanni has in the past built "traditional" bandsaws, recently they introduced the 18x18 and 20x20 saws to feed the current desire for "resaw" bandsaws, probably in reaction to Laguna who seem to be the wheel size = resaw height innovators.

[Bill May]

you guys keep saying low end of the the sliders. is it worth the wait and l extra money and go with the felder. I guess it would be best if i told you what i do . I have a 3 man operation thats does mostly mill work, trim and general custom finish carpentry but i have been getting alot of build-in cabinets lately and for see getting quite a few more in the future and feel a slider would speed up the build considerably

[Dave MacArthur]

Love the side by side pics of the 16HD and the Felder, Joe. Very interesting.

You know, I'm not sure if I should be worried about how interesting I find this thread. It's actually incredibly difficult to find good detailed spec info on these euro machines, it really makes me see the value of attending a good show where you can compare the machines side by side. For example with these band saws, I spent hours tonight looking for comparative info on even just the Agazzani band saws-- NRA line vs. "B20" vs. Rapid line. Spec sheets look identical, website offers no clue, nor do any posts showing up on Google.

Difficult to judge between sliders without an input from someone who's used both, I think.

[Scot Ferraro]

Hi Bill,

There are a lot of great choices out there and this is a good time to buy a slider. I own the Hammer J/P and love the machine and I have spent time crawling around both all of the Felder offerings and the Laguna offerings (I happen to live close to Laguna and I have been to the Felder showroom in DE and to AWFS a few times). Both companies offer great machines that will serve you well. The Hammer is, as you and others noted, Felder's entry line machine. A lot of the components on this machine are identical to the parts on Felder's higher lines. However, as you move up in the lines at Felder, you get more refinement and options and the machines are built to withstand heavier use, especially in an industrial setting. For example, the chasis on the Hammer and the Felder 500 series are pretty much identical, but with the 500 series you get the X-roll sliding table which is a big step up from the sliding table on the Hammer IMHO. The motor assembly on the 700 series (and now it looks like it is moving to the 500 series too) is beefy and more substantial than what is on the Hammer line. The motors themselves, however, are the same. All of this is not to say that the Hammer is not a well made, heavy-duty machine, because it is. There are just other things that go into the overall package of each machine that distinguishes them from the other lines.

If you get a chance to see machines in person that will give you some more to go on and each company can put you in touch with owners in your area. In terms of dealing with each company (as I have machines from both), each company has been great to deal with both pre and post sale -- great customer service and support from both.

Good luck with your decision.

Scot

[Mike Wilkins]

Your best bet is to find someone in close proximity with one of the smaller sliders. There is nothing like a first hand, close-up look at a machine your are considering, so you can touch, feel, caress every square inch. Talk with the owner to find his/her likes, dislikes and overall opinion.
I have 2 Laguna machines, a LT18 bandsaw and a Pro 6' Sliding Tablesaw. Both are really well made machines that will likely outlast me. I have only seen a Felder at a show, so I have no hands-on experience. But from what I have seen in the catalog and the sheer number of owners just on this forum, I would not hesitate to give them a serious look.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I own a B3 Winner which is the same machine as the K3, with a tilting spindle shaper thrown in.

There are three fence systems available for the K3, I have the middle fence which is the one with the round bar guiding system.

This is the fence offered on the K3 promotion in the USA.

The fence feels and looks different that a Biessemeyer type product, it seems less sturdy at a glance, however it has a great operational difference, it's really 3 fences. It works well.

It operates in the conventional high sided fence, it operates as a 1/2" high fence for cutting bevels and ripping thin strips, and both fence configurations can have the fence slid back so that the fence ends before the blade.

This configuration is excellent for ripping solid stock that might twist, or for using the fence as a length stop with the crosscut fence. (Prevents the cut off from being trapped between the blade and fence).

The K3 is also available in the "Perform" configuration with a larger chassis and sliding table for commercial use.

I have spoken to people who use a Hammer saw in their commercial shop and they are pleased with it.

As has been said by others, if you want a more industrial machine with more features, go to the Felder 700 series.

The Felder/Hammer machines have a couple of good selling points;

- machines are custom built for you, you get exactly what you need, make sure you cover everything at the time of order

- you're buying from a manufacturer with an excellent reputation, field service and engineering groups. In addition, they make the machines and own the designs and intellectual property. 20 years from now when you need a weird part that's no longer in the new machines, they'll simply make it as per the old drawings.

- the list of accessories that can be added is amazing, all sorts of things to make the machine larger, smaller, more capable can be ordered and added at any time.

Regards, Rod.

[Joe Jensen]

you guys keep saying low end of the the sliders. is it worth the wait and l extra money and go with the felder. I guess it would be best if i told you what i do . I have a 3 man operation thats does mostly mill work, trim and general custom finish carpentry but i have been getting alot of build-in cabinets lately and for see getting quite a few more in the future and feel a slider would speed up the build considerably


If you have the floor space I think you should buy a used industrial slider. The Hammer is a nice home shop duty saw, but if you have employees using it, I would expect them to be much rougher on it than a hobby guy. I read a ton about sliders before buying. The main difference with the really heavy duty ones is that the owners say they have never had to realign them, even in production environments where people are quickly slamming sheet after sheet of MDF against the fences.

If I had a production environment cabinet saw I'd want a Biesemeyer fence, super tough. I wouldn't want an Incra in that environment as it's more of a precision but more fragile fence. I'd say the Hammer would be the same.

I searched a lot last fall for a used slider and found a ton with 3200mm slides, 3PH, 14" blades. Industrial grade ones. I saw a lot of them going for $3000 or so. If going into a shop with employees I think you would be much better off with a 10 year old industrial saw. Maybe spend the $500-1000 to have a factory tech set it up for you...joe