Newbie questions

[Jeff Hendrix]

Hey guys, I am going to be outfitting a shop here in the very near future, I have several things in place already, but will be looking to upgrade table saws as well as buy a new planer, lathe, jointer and dust collection systems.

My budget is going to be around 10K and I want the most bang for the dollars spent. Here's your chance to weigh in and tell me what you would spend the money on and why. Please include what you would spend the most on and why if you can.

I am leaning toward a this table saw:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2061051/21136/Powermatic-PM2000--3HP-1PH-Table-Saw-w50-Accu-Fence-System-and-Rout-R-Lift.aspx

but have been looking at the other brands. I want to of course spend as little as possible, but want to get very good machines and still get everything on my list.

Hello to all and thanks for your replies.

Jeff

[Braun Reszler]

Im a newbie myself so you probably should ignore me but if I has 10k to spend and enough space I would be getting,

1. A Sawstop

2. A 12" jointer/planer w/helical

3. A sufficient cyclone system

4. dont know much about the lathe but in highschool I had fun making a bowl which I still have after 25 years.

Anyway Im sure Im not the only one who will chime in, good luck.

[Steve Bracken]

Hey guys, I am going to be outfitting a shop here in the very near future, I have several things in place already, but will be looking to upgrade table saws as well as buy a new planer, lathe, jointer and dust collection systems.

My budget is going to be around 10K and I want the most bang for the dollars spent. Here's your chance to weigh in and tell me what you would spend the money on and why. Please include what you would spend the most on and why if you can.

I am leaning toward a this table saw:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2061051/21136/Powermatic-PM2000--3HP-1PH-Table-Saw-w50-Accu-Fence-System-and-Rout-R-Lift.aspx

but have been looking at the other brands. I want to of course spend as little as possible, but want to get very good machines and still get everything on my list.

Hello to all and thanks for your replies.

Jeff

If I were doing that I would start with the Hammer/Felder Sliding Table Saw .... but that might depend a little on what you want to cut.

There is no need at all to buy all new machines. Lots of places will provide high quality equipment at a fraction of the new cost. For example ... You can pay $500 for a 12/13" Planer, and it will still be a cheap substitute for a decent machine. A Delta 15" Planer can be had for as little as $500, and $1000 should bag a very nice, fairly recent example.

You can very easily change $10k into 15 to 20K worth of tooling, if you are selective and prepared to do some cleaning and adjusting.

Just my 2c :)

[Jeff Hendrix]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I am not against good used iron for sure, having dealt with a good bit of it over the years.

I suppose I should have given a little more info with the post. I plan to build cabinetry as well as having a yearning to turn some bowls and and other turnings and general woodworking tasks. I have most everything I need except for the planer, jointer, lathe and dust collection. I am looking to upgrade the table saw from a decent Delta contractor saw.

This will be in my garage for now, just not situated where I can build a decent sized shop for now. The garage is 19'x21' with a 10'x5' storage room so I will have plenty of room since I already have the go ahead for making it a dedicated shop.

I have been doing a log of research on the machines and want to have as many opinions on them as I can. Don't be afraid to chime in with links or other info if you care to share, thanks again,

Jeff

[Steve Bracken]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I am not against good used iron for sure, having dealt with a good bit of it over the years.

I suppose I should have given a little more info with the post. I plan to build cabinetry as well as having a yearning to turn some bowls and and other turnings and general woodworking tasks. I have most everything I need except for the planer, jointer, lathe and dust collection. I am looking to upgrade the table saw from a decent Delta contractor saw.

This will be in my garage for now, just not situated where I can build a decent sized shop for now. The garage is 19'x21' with a 10'x5' storage room so I will have plenty of room since I already have the go ahead for making it a dedicated shop.

I have been doing a log of research on the machines and want to have as many opinions on them as I can. Don't be afraid to chime in with links or other info if you care to share, thanks again,

Jeff

If you are planning to build cabinets, then you will never regret buying a sliding table that can handle an 8 x 4 sheet of plywood.

Your shop is big enough :)

I remember when my wife and I bought this house, it has a 34" square attached garage.

I saw it before she did, and I called her and told her she would love the house and that it had a 2500 sq ft shop, but no garage :D:D:D

[Van Huskey]

I love my PM2000 and would not trade it for any "American" cabinet saw except a SS Indutrial Cabinet Saw BUT if my focus was cabinets I would get a slider.

For the 10K I would get:

Hammer K3 winner, at current sale pricing fitting out about $4000

Dust collection about $1500-2000 depending on the piping etc

In that budget I would get a Jet or Grizzly 12" J/P with a helical head for roughly $2500

Leaving 1500-2000 for a lathe and tooling, being a flat worker I would defer to the turners

You didn't mention a shaper but if you are cabinet oriented I assume you have one, if not I would seriously rearrange the priorities to include one with a feeder.

If you are set on a cabinet saw then I would get the PM2000 and get a 12" Grizzly Jointer and 15" planer both with helical heads for about the same price as the slider and J/P combo.

[John Coloccia]

IMHO, a combo Jointer/Planer is a slam dunk in a home shop. I really like my Jet JJP-12. Others are great as well.

Do you have a bandsaw, by the way?

Anyhow, you may want to consider looking at some of the European combination machines, especially if you could find one used.

[Jeff Hendrix]

I have a bandsaw, drill press, scroll saw, most of the sanders as well as a compound miter saw and routers already. Been getting by with the table saw I have for a few years now but am ready to move up. I have had access to the planer and joiner at my parents house, but I moved out of town last year when I remarried and need my own these days.

I had a lathe picked out already, but this saw may make me change my mind and see if I can find a decent used one for now. I have access to one now, just hate to drive all the way across town to use it. I had not thought a sliding table would be in my budget, I really like the one that was suggested though, jut have to find out tomorrow on what the shipping will be.

I would love to build a new shop but haven't got the room on the lot we live on due to a rather large hill side in the back yard and I am very tired of having everything in storage, thus the garage will suffice for now....


Please keep it coming guys, I am in no hurry and only want to spend money once. Anyone have a link to where you find the used machinery? I have only seen a few so far and they were way out of my budget so far. I have been looking at ebay but haven't seen anything that made me want to buy it so far. I was a gunsmith once upon a time ago and learned to buy good used machinery way back when. I am not a bit opposed to reworking something with good promise and have the machine shop equipment to take care of most repairs.

Thanks!

Jeff

[Jeff Hendrix]

Anyone have an opinion on this machine or have one?

http://www.lagunatools.com/used/Platinum-Series-10-5-Function-Combination-Machine

[John Coloccia]

Please keep it coming guys, I am in no hurry and only want to spend money once.

Boy did you pick the wrong hobby.

[Dave MacArthur]

Oh boy, this thread should be like a shark feeding frenzy: "table saw, jointer, planer, dust collection, $10,000, top quality machines. Spend my money".

Ok, I have to say I almost 100% agree with Van Huskey. His numbers add up nicely. For a lathe, for $2000 you could get a Jet 1642-2EVS. I've been researching lathes for "full up, last purchase" machines for a couple months, and have arrived at this Jet or the PM3520B for about $3200.

There is a great thread on the purchasing decision of top-line cabinet saw vs. euro slider, called "New Delta Unisaw" surprisingly enough:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=141246 , just fleshed out this last week.

I've never used a slider, and in fact just purchased a sawstop to replace my PM66. Result of a good deal found more than any slider/sawstop research decision. The info I read on a slider is convincing, but I suppose I've read so many thousands of articles on "how to do THIS cut and THAT trick and build THIS jig for your Cabinet saw!", that I'm probably committed to the cabinet saw unless someone holds and intervention and forces me to watch while they build a kitchen with a slider.

That being said, your PM2000 choice can't be faulted, at this point the only cabinet saws I'd buy new are the PM2000 and the SawStop, based on their review results. Other saws are good, but you seem to be willing to pay a reasonable price for the top design/machine and not look back.

Many folks will tout the combo J/P. I haven't used one, and I suspect the folks posting about them have a lot more time jointing/planing than I do, and more valid opinions. However, I do know that my work-flow makes me want separate machines for both. I'm sorry, but I can't abide that changeover time. I know that every time I did it, I'd be wishing I had a separate jointer and planer, and thinking that dangit, I deserved one. I'd go generate $1000 of income to get separates if I felt I needed to justify it. I've worked in a shop where other folks were using the tools, and even just having to reset the tool for my own use irked me.

Used Iron: Here's what I could have bought off the Phoenix CL on your shopping list this month:
SawStop ICS - $1500
General 10" jointer $1000
PM 209 Planer w/ Byrd $1000
Grizzly 5HP DC w/ piping (check SMC classified tonight) $1000
PM90 lathe w/ risers to 24" swing $1600
Total: $6100.

Bonus stuff with your remaining $3900:
Agazzani NRA-500 Bandsaw (20") $600
Laguna LT-18 Bandsaw $800
Powermatic 20" Bandsaw $1150
Trip to Disney with the Family
Contributor status to SMC @ $6/yr for 600 years
;)

[Jeff Hendrix]

The one reason I am leaning toward the PM is Woodcraft is close by and I can pick it it up there and save the shipping. From all of the research I have done, the saw is hard to beat. I can also lay hands on it and I really like that.

I really like the K3 and if shipping comes in with something I consider reasonable, it may be my next saw. From a production standpoint, I think it will be very hard to beat. Me being a one man show though and not looking to do this on a large scale basis, I still like the PM saw.

Thanks again guys. I knew this could have gotten ugly right off the bat, but from all I have seen so far with this forum, I felt safe asking the questions here.

Jeff

[glenn bradley]

This sounds like it should be a fun ride. All of the following is opinion and worth just what you are paying for it . . . Focus on your dust collection first and at every step. This is much easier than trying to shoe-horn a system in to an already populated shop. Using plastic ducting and making your own blast gates can save some money spent better elsewhere.

Secondly, put in twice as much power panel as you could ever possibly need and then increase it 20%. Do the same with your outlets. I have added more power twice, each time putting in more than I could "ever need".

There are many fine cabinet saws in the $1200 to $4000 range. You will need to decide what is important to you; basic function or special features.

I will never buy a jointer or planer without a carbide insert spiral head again. Getting one on my jointer spoiled me for them. Good thing my planer needs an upgrade anyway ;-)

A drill press must be more challenging to make than one would think. I have seen $1000 machines that are no better than some $400 machines. Seems like there are very large tiers; benchtops, $400 to $1500+ and then mill-drills that are generally quite nice. I ended up with a lower end floor model because things like the PM2800 (no offense intended to any owners) were no better and I didn't need a $2500 drill press ;-)

Make your own router table and make it your own. Add a shaper if you are of that mind. Make your own bench and shop cabinets; its fun and they will be just what you want.

Lumber storage, lumber storage, lumber storage. . . I am always looking for somewhere else to put long boards, cut-offs and scraps.

Have fun!

[Jeff Hendrix]

Thanks for the advice guys, dust collection is a major concern and I will be going with a 3hp cyclone system to whatever machines I have in the shop as well as an air cleaners on the ceiling.

This of course isn't my first shop by any means, just do not have one at the moment. Been working out of storage units for a while now and am tired of that for sure. I have the money available to set up a really nice shop and want to upgrade the table saw for sure. I found a nice deal on a PM66 today on CL. Just have to talk more with the guy to decide if I want it or not.

It is in a cabinet shop now not being used which doesn't hurt my feelings at all. The arbor was replaced already which makes me wonder, just have to go take a look at it first.

I do think I will stick with stand alone machines though for the jointer and planer. I have the room for both and hate to have to stop to reset the machine to finish the milling.

Thanks again,

Jeff

[Joe Jensen]

Jeff, first of all, welcome.

Are you relatively new to the hobby or do you KNOW this is THE hobby for you. If you aren't sure, buying new stuff and then learning it's not your passion can be expensive.

Over the past 26 years I've owned a 1970s Unisaw, a new PM66, a new Sawstop, and now a Euro slider saw. All those saws are fantastic. If you are leaning to the PM2000 for the riving knife, I understand. Having a good splitter gives the riving function for all but cuts that don't go all the way through the wood. There are lots of nice used cabinet saws here in Phoenix for $700-1000. You can add a Biesemeyer splitter to most cabinet saws and if you use that and the guard all the time you will be very safe. As another guy posted, there was recently a SawStop ICS for $1500 (I sold mine in Jan for $3000).

[Van Huskey]

The one reason I am leaning toward the PM is Woodcraft is close by and I can pick it it up there and save the shipping. From all of the research I have done, the saw is hard to beat. I can also lay hands on it and I really like that.



Jeff


If you buy the PM shop and money is an issue shop it around. PM products usually ship from most dealers with free lift gate delivery, this goes for Jet as well. You should be able to get it for several hundred bucks off plus save the sales tax, which if I remember right would be another $100 or so.

You mentioned air cleaners, the Jet is on sale now at Tools-plus for $254 shipped, FWW just tested them and chose it as best of the sub $400 versions.

I wouldn't worry about the arbor being replaced on a PM66, it would actually make me happy if everything works as it should. If you get the 66 I would suggest an overarm guard (for any cabinet saw except a SS) like a Excaliber or Brett, increases safety and dust collection.

I prefer seperate jointer and planer as well, but buying all new with your budget you get more bang for the buck that way, as I am a fan of 12" jointers.

Lets revisit your numbers:

PM66 and overarm guard ~$1200
Grizzly 12" Jointer w/ helical shipped $2500
Grizzly 15" planer w/ helical shipped $1600
DC 3 hp Grizzly Cyclone, piping with ambient filter $2,500
Leaving a couple of thousand for the lathe

Interesting you mentioned a combo machine (Laguna) since you don't want a combo J/P and this is just even more "comboed" up. Plus the one you mention is a 10" J/P which is small considering your budget along with being straight knives. I like the idea but can't speak to the Laguna, it is on the lower price end of the 5 in 1 machines. A 12" 5 in 1 is going to eat your entire budget. It does offer you a shaper which I really think you need to consider for cabinetry. If I were you I would seriously consider shuffling the budget (maybe revisit the J/P combo) and pick up the Grizzly 1026 3 hp shaper that is on sale for $900 which is less than most spend on a router table, router motor and lift.

You will see I leaned heavily on Grizzly although they are not my favorite machines they are solid, have good CS and with your budget make perfect sense.

Also you didn't mention which lathe you had picked, that would help to further define the budget, makes a big difference if you want a Oneway, 3520B or on the other end a Jet Mini.

[Dave MacArthur]

No affiliation with below, but it's on topic and timely so...

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/tls/1793987537.html
Here's your whole shop in Phx for $2000:


- professional Woodworking equipment. Delta unisaw 10" cabinet saw. Big and powerful. 5 hp motor. works perfectly, true and square. with 2 ply and 2 rip blades - 700
-Powermatic 15" planer. new blades works great. - 500
-Delta 8" jointer. runs perfect great machine. - 700
-jet dust collector with all hoses and fittings. - 200
-jet mortiser - 150
I will let everything go together for 2k or individually Of course, I'm not sure how many cabinets you'll be building, but my impression was you're not doing this professionally, but as a hobbyist. My thoughts on building cabinets as a hobbyist is, you'll only be building one house worth, or maybe a few rentals too. But that's just NOT that many panels. For J/P, I don't have a single door panel in my kitchen that is > 15" wide, and that's the sink base at 15". So IMO, 15" is probably min acceptable planer width if I'm building cabinets with real wood panels. Since I'm not getting a 16" jointer, half that for glue-ups of two pieces will do, 8" jointer. I'm not going to find many 13"-16" boards anyways, I expect to be gluing up panels for raised panel doors, and truth be told I like book matching the grain on a wide door panel for a better look.

I'd think all face-frames you'd be building for cabinets could be handled on 8" jointer and 15" planer, as well as most horizontal drawer panels. Here's where a wider jointer might be of good use, many kitchens are using all horizontal drawers these days--Norm was spot on with his kitchen build. In the more expensive homes I visit as a realtor (if you don't have at least 2 jobs, you're not trying hard enough! ;) ), this is what I see most of now. But a lot of the wider drawer fronts are built as frame/raised-panel still, so maybe 8" jointer still good.

Cutting the plywood for the boxes, I can see how the slider might be a huge help IF it's easy to load with one person, easy to control throughout the cut. Honestly I just cut my sheets to manageable size with circular saw and home-made track/guide, then slap them on my PM66 for further reduction and squaring. I'd like to watch someone slice up sheets on a slider though, something I've not actually seen.

I think Van is talking himself into his new shop actually! I'm just surprised a PolarBear G0513p didn't work itself into his lineup somehow! ;)

[Jerome Hanby]

Unless I had a helper that was always going to be around, I would hate the thought of having to run full sheets of plywood...in fact even with a couple of helpers, I would hate the thought :rolleyes:.

I'd get a good cabinet saw that made me happy and then drop less that a $1000 on a Festool track saw, accessories, and material to build a cutting table for breaking down sheet goods. Or you could spend less and buy a PSI portable panel saw or even less and build a cutting board. I've done all three and haven't touched the other two since I got the Festool.

Just to give everyone something to fuss about, you can replace a good many shop tools with an inexpensive Shopsmith from CL. It's a decent lathe, a good drill press, the only horizontal boring machine that your are ever likely to see, and a great sanding station (especially when you add the belt sander attachment). The bandsaw is a pretty decent attachment too. Plus you get a table saw sufficient the scare the willies out of almost anyone. It's also a great platform to drive shop made gadgets. And after you replace all it's functions with better standalone equipment, you can cut the rails down and turn it into a dedicated sanding station that can't be touched for the money.

[Jeff Hendrix]

I am not new to cabinet making nor am I new to the machines, just never had a nice cabinet saw of my own nor the jointer, planer and lathe. I have always had access to someone's machines when I needed them. While I am not a professional by any means, I have built several for myself and others and will be handling small jobs for others by myself.

I hate the all in one machines myself, especially for metal working, but was looking at the Laguna and the Hammer combo machines. I believe I am going to stick with separate machines and locate them in my floorplan to work well in a working triangle.

I am going to be calling the guy about the PM66 here in a few, just have to see what he says on it, the price is about right for it. I am looking at this lathe
http://www.grizzly.com/products/18-X-47-Wood-Lathe/G0698

as well a the Jet that is comparable, I have found the PM saw and Jet lathe a good bit cheaper than where I originally was looking for them and haven't made up my mind just yet.

I have been a gunsmith for years now and closed my shop down a year ago and started building cabinets and other wood projects for myself as well as others. I have a fairly good selection of woodworking tools as well as a complete machine shop that have been in storage facilities for a year now and have decided to for now only do the cabinet work. Hopefully within 5 years I will be able to sell this house and build a new house and shop, but until then, the garage will be fine.

Thanks again guys!

Jeff