A Little More Help For Neophite o' the North...

[Joe Scarfo]

As some of you may remember, I'm seriously looking at moving to WI from Tampa.

I've been in touch w/ a builder whose working out pricing for a set of plans we've found and will likely be moving to a burgeoning burb of Sheboygan called Howards Grove.

I spent y'day replacing air shocks on wifey's minivan and saved $300 for the trouble. Good think the garage at Aunt Sue's is heated, cause it was cold out.

My question is... The common heaters here tend to be natural gas, propane, elec, or wood burning for the shops. I heard that nat gas will actually push up the humidity levels and propane needs to be vented to the outside. Elect costs to much and I don't make enough scrap to keep a wood burning stove running (no I'm not bragging, it's more like not enough pjcts in the pipeline).

Is it true that nat gas produces humidity as a by product of combustion? If so, it seems like a poor choice for heating a garage shop.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Joe.... whose still calling zip code 33594 home.

[Dean Baumgartner]

Joe,

Natural gas or propane will add humidity to the shop if they are non external vented type. One of the products of combustion from both is water vapor. If you go with either look for the vented type like the modine hotdawg. Several people on the board have used them and like them. Otherwise look for an older small home furnace.


Dean

[Karl Laustrup]

Joe,

Well, I still can't believe you're really going to do it. And you thought it was cold in the garage changing those shocks. :D
I'm not 100% on this but, I think the new "sealed combustion" gas furnaces and heaters will "not" increase the humidity. This is where the combustion chamber draws fresh air from the outside and exhausts it right back out side.
I've noticed [and so has LOML] that humidity, in house, is lower since upgrading to the new style. So much so that we are thinking of installing a humidifier as part of the unit.
We were over in Sheboygan in August. Went to the PGA at Whistling Straits. Nice area. About 2 hours drive from here.
Keep us posted.

Karl

[Joe Scarfo]

A sealed unit makes sense. Our fireplace in Tpa is a sealed unit and can throw off some serious heat too.

I'll add this to the check list.. A fire place in the woodshop would be fun, throw in broadband w/ a laptop and heaven has been found....

Thanks for the feedback.

Joe... whose in Green Bay for the weekend....

:D

[Karl Laustrup]

A sealed unit makes sense. Our fireplace in Tpa is a sealed unit and can throw off some serious heat too.

I'll add this to the check list.. A fire place in the woodshop would be fun, throw in broadband w/ a laptop and heaven has been found....

Thanks for the feedback.

Joe... whose in Green Bay for the weekend....

:D
Don't forget the 'fridge, Joe. Need that during the summer. Winter we just use the "big 'fridge".
Going to the game Monday night at Lambeau, Joe?

Karl

[Jim Becker]

If you're building the shop...consider in-floor radient hydronic heating with a high-efficiency gas fired boiler or water heater as your first choice. If the ceilings are high enough, overhead sealed gas radent is the next best choice. Both do not stir the air and provide very effective and comfortable heat with reasonable economy. If those options are not workable, a "Hot Dawg" type is a super solution. All of these are direct vent systems and DO NOT add humidity to your shop. Only the non-vented systems have that problem and those would be a poor choice for a number of reasons.

[Joe Mioux]

Ditto Jim Becker's thoughts on hot water in-floor heat. I have it installed at one of my flower shops and out in the greenhouses (close to 20,000 sq ft). Hot water is the best hands down. It is more expensive to install but the cheapest to operate. In addition to no air movement, you do not get any hot or cold spots in the room and less up and down temperature fluctuations between boiler firings. Hot water heaters do work in these applications and that does save some money, however, a true boiler is better. Many boilers can be set outside which means no flues, either fresh air supply or exhaust.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe....I'm with the others on in-the-floor radiant heat. Initial expense is greater but my research showed that if installed correctly, it provided a more economical, even heat without air movement. I'd have it in my new shop except for timing, initial cost and local building code requirements. The building code hangup came when I was going to install it myself. They wanted (1) a water source in the building (I don't have water in it) or specially designed safety circuits (which increased the cost) and they wouldn't allow me to have the permit open for an extended period of time while I was saving the money to finish the installation. I ended up settling for a hanging natural gas forced air system.

[John Bush]

Hi Joe,
I have in-slab hot water heat in my 1500sqft shop and it is definitely worth the little bit of extra $$$. I did a lot of the installation myself, with the direction of a plumber friend, and used a direct vent, Nat. gas hot water tank for the heat source. The vent for the hot exhaust is surrounded by ducting for the combustion air intake and cools the exhaust enough that a small vent grate out the side wall is all that is needed to protect the siding, vegetaion, critters, etc. I was going to have a hot water tank andway so the extra stuff needed was a pump, the tubing, a manifold, a relay switch, and a thermostat. Maybe $1K in total, but as with most aspects of doing fun stuff expenditures, I try to forget the actual costs. The best aspect of the system is the even heat and no need for fans to blow dust around and get clogged. I keep the temp ~65 and if it gets a little colder here it takes a while for the temp to ramp up, but stays even once it reaches the new setting. Definitely worth considering.
You'll enjoy Penninsula State Park and Door Co. North of Sheboygan. I spent a lot of time camping and sailing up there, and was the Main reason I moved to the PNW. Good luck, John.

[Dale Thompson]

My question is... The common heaters here tend to be natural gas, propane, elec, or wood burning for the shops. I heard that nat gas will actually push up the humidity levels and propane needs to be vented to the outside.

Is it true that nat gas produces humidity as a by product of combustion? If so, it seems like a poor choice for heating a garage shop.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Joe.... whose still calling zip code 33594 home.

Joe,
Yours is a very complicated question. Both natural gas and propane need to be vented to the outside due to the fact that CO is a by-product of the combustion process with both fuels. Similarly, both natural gas and propane produce moisture as a "product of combustion". That is not a bad thing in northern Wisconsin because our Winters can see extreme humidity levels of 10% or less.

The reason for the complexity of your question is that it depends on what your builder plans to put into your house or shop in terms of its efficiency.
"Very High Efficiency Systems" wring a lot of moisture from the air and should not be used below 60 degs. "High Efficiency Systems" can be used to as low as 50 deg., and "old" systems could care less.

The bottom line, Joe, is that if you have chosen a "true" professional builder, he/she should be able to give you VERY specific recommendations as to your heating requirements in Howards Grove. For me, Howards Grove is "down south" but I think that my above comments may be a good start. ;)

One hint for building up in Wisconsin: Insulation is your best bargain in walls, roofs and even basements. Don't scrimp on insulation. During building, it is a minor "add". After the house is done, it can get quite expensive. :(

Dale T.