Generic designs - bandsaw and jointer

[Hugh Jardon]

A query on my part. Some of the tools seem to be the identical basic design from differing manufacturers. For example, the basic 14 inch bandsaw, can be had from Grizzly, Jet, Delta, RIDGID and even Harbor Freight. The castings appear to be identical. Same for the 6 inch jointers.

My question is, is there a foundry in Asia somewhere that casts these identical parts, and then either assembles the end product for these companies, or ships the castings to the end manufacturer? Or or they cast in separate foundries, and just happen to be from the same set of plans?

I appreciate that the differences in the end products are often determined by for example the motor, pulleys, fences, guides and stand etc, but these are basically ancillary items and can be changed at will. It's the core parts I'm interested in.

[Aaron Berk]

The conspiracy theory thickens:cool:

I've noticed that too. I think your on to something.

[glenn bradley]

"Identical" is a strong term. Many are certainly similar in appearance with some different colors probably coming from the same molds. The level of tolerance and QC are contracted by the requester. The PC I'm typing this on says Dell but I am sure that many components and even full assemblies were made by someone else.

The popular Grizzly G0490 is a Delta DJ-20 with more ponies, a magnetic switch and some other minor differences. I would imagine several of Deltas bandsaw models use the same frame just as a small Lexus may be built on a Camry frame. I wonder if someone out there is trying to corner the contract for ALL the castings for ALL the makers? The conspiracy does indeed thicken.

[Steve Bracken]

A query on my part. Some of the tools seem to be the identical basic design from differing manufacturers. For example, the basic 14 inch bandsaw, can be had from Grizzly, Jet, Delta, RIDGID and even Harbor Freight. The castings appear to be identical. Same for the 6 inch jointers.

My question is, is there a foundry in Asia somewhere that casts these identical parts, and then either assembles the end product for these companies, or ships the castings to the end manufacturer? Or or they cast in separate foundries, and just happen to be from the same set of plans?

I appreciate that the differences in the end products are often determined by for example the motor, pulleys, fences, guides and stand etc, but these are basically ancillary items and can be changed at will. It's the core parts I'm interested in.

Yes and no :D

There is much branding of stock items going on, but it's not that simple.

With respect to castings ..... While a few large foundries may indeed be using the same, or very similar moulds to cast for different end brands, that wouldn't automatically mean the castings were the same quality (although it might).

It would be perfectly possible for Powermatic and Harbor Freight to buy from the same supplier yet specify different iron, and age it differently, and then machine it to a different standard. The parts would look almost identical.

So yes, Grizzly buys machines in Taiwan, and it's quite likely that the same factory supplies others ... but each company stats with a very basic design, and everything from fit, finish and bolt-on components could be different .... as could quality control both in the country of origin and later back here.

[Hugh Jardon]

Following on with the car analogy, to me, it's not the same as the Lexus/Camry, as the two cars look quite different. A better analogy would be the Ford Crown Victoria and the Police Interceptor. Identical sheet metal, and interior (at least in the front :) ). I'm sure the PI has uprated drivetrain, suspension and brakes, but it's still a Crown Vic, made on the same line.

I understand about the quality of the castings, and perhaps that's the main differentiator. The quality of the casting on my RIDGID BS is woeful in comparison with that on the RIDGID TS or jointer. I'd quite understand if that particular piece was supplied to HF as is. Trouble is, the Grizzly one looks just the same to me.

[Steve Bracken]

Following on with the car analogy, to me, it's not the same as the Lexus/Camry, as the two cars look quite different. A better analogy would be the Ford Crown Victoria and the Police Interceptor. Identical sheet metal, and interior (at least in the front :) ). I'm sure the PI has uprated drivetrain, suspension and brakes, but it's still a Crown Vic, made on the same line.

I understand about the quality of the castings, and perhaps that's the main differentiator. The quality of the casting on my RIDGID BS is woeful in comparison with that on the RIDGID TS or jointer. I'd quite understand if that particular piece was supplied to HF as is. Trouble is, the Grizzly one looks just the same to me.

While it is clear that Grizzly supply much more value-oriented tools than, say, Powermatic, the hard thing is making a judgement about exactly where the savings were made.

For a woodworker, accuracy, and maybe convenience matter a great deal and, in the end, the question might boil down to whether or not you can make better furniture on one item, as opposed to another.

[Russell Sansom]

I think this is a great question.
Years ago I was cycling seriously long distances. Since my "12-speed" Fuji lacked low gears for hill climbing and my knees were beginning to suffer, I bought an "18-speed" Miyata. When I measured their frames I found that they were "identical."
I asked around for some time ( pre-internet ) and found that in Japan base units were built in a single factory then distributed to individual companies for "marketing and branding." The way I understood this was that one large over-reaching organization ( it had a name I can't remember) controlled absolutely everything...unlike the U.S. at the time.
It's easy to imagine that the Chinese do something similar.
I hope someone has a definitive answer.

[Dave Lehnert]

Over on a metal working forum one of the member had a job that took him over seas often. He paid a visit to some of the manufactures of the popular mini metal lathes. What he found ,since patent laws are not enforced, what looks to be from the same manufacture is not always the case. If manufacturing co. "A" makes a metal lathe, A new manufacture co. "B" will just take a lathe from co. "A" make castings from the parts and start selling them.

Now this is just me thinking, may or may not be the case in the real world. But I were a manufacture in China and made bandsaws for a company like JET or Grizzly that had high manufacturing tolerances. If a part was good but just not with tolerance. I would not just trash the parts. I would use the parts to build other saws and maybe offer a brand line to companies like Harbor Freight or the like.

[Jim Rimmer]

Over on a metal working forum one of the member had a job that took him over seas often. He paid a visit to some of the manufactures of the popular mini metal lathes. What he found ,since patent laws are not enforced, what looks to be from the same manufacture is not always the case. If manufacturing co. "A" makes a metal lathe, A new manufacture co. "B" will just take a lathe from co. "A" make castings from the parts and start selling them.

Now this is just me thinking, may or may not be the case in the real world. But I were a manufacture in China and made bandsaws for a company like JET or Grizzly that had high manufacturing tolerances. If a part was good but just not with tolerance. I would not just trash the parts. I would use the parts to build other saws and maybe offer a brand line to companies like Harbor Freight or the like.
You may be close. I have worked for a company for 31 years that makes machined goods. Many "replicators" have copied our products and produce them. However, they don't hold the machining tolerances we do, often don't use the same material we use, and don't have the QA programs we have that follow the unit through assembly. So, even if the castings come from the same foundry or if they are copied by other foundries, it is the QA process, the machining tolerances, and the assembly that makes the difference.

In our case, this doesn't address the lab tests, engineering, new product development and other costs that we roll into our pricing that the "replicators' don't have to deal with. Also, since product made for distribution in NA is made in NA, we also have to deal with the costs associated with environmental and safety issues. But I digress.

[Van Huskey]

You may be close. I have worked for a company for 31 years that makes machined goods. Many "replicators" have copied our products and produce them. However, they don't hold the machining tolerances we do, often don't use the same material we use, and don't have the QA programs we have that follow the unit through assembly. So, even if the castings come from the same foundry or if they are copied by other foundries, it is the QA process, the machining tolerances, and the assembly that makes the difference.

In our case, this doesn't address the lab tests, engineering, new product development and other costs that we roll into our pricing that the "replicators' don't have to deal with. Also, since product made for distribution in NA is made in NA, we also have to deal with the costs associated with environmental and safety issues. But I digress.


I made a long post regarding this but a cursory serch didn't bring it up for me but the Cliff's notes follow.

My wife worked for a company that made power metal castings for the hand power tools industry many of which were clone versions of high end tools, they also made the casting for the high end tool companies. In this industry (at the time can't be sure now) the lower level clones did not spec out seperate parts they just got the parts that didn't meet the higher qualiity tool manufacturers specs. So a quality parts went to company 1 at a premium price, slightly lower to company 3 at a reduced price and so on. The funny thing was if there was a shortage of "#3" parts they might get #1 or #2 for the same low price. In any event there are probably a dozen manufacturers making 14" cast Delta clones and my personal bet is it works much like those powered metal parts. I will make a WAG here (without sticking my neck out) between say the PM, Jet and HF versions PM gets the best parts, Jet in the middle and HF gets the lower end parts tolerence wise. I know all the the Delta clones don't come out of the same factory but I suspect each factory casts or sources parts that are graded and sent to the "proper" assembly line based on the price paid for the parts. That is part of the reason the quality varies so much in a visually pretty identical saw, save color and a doo-dad here or there.

[Mike Wilkins]

You are correct in your assumptions. Several years ago, Fine Woodworking Magazine did a test report on 15" planers; I think there were about a dozen machines in the test. Out of the ones tested, about 6 models were identical except for the paint job. One even tried to set themselves apart by mounting the motor on the top insted of below.
There was also another FWW article on the Tiawanese woodworking machinery industry. It had photos of machines on the assembly line that were identical, with only a change of color to identify another company.