Anyone have this problem w/ blum undermount?

[Dan Chouinard]

No matter how carefully I install Blum soft close undermount drawer slides something very frustrating often happens.

When fastening inset drawer front, I very carefully shim front until margin is perfect all away around face frame opening then press tight to double-stick carpet tape to hold in position. Then carefully pull drawer out and put two clamps on and install four screws.

Now I take off clamps and close drawer to admire my perfect alignment and the dam thing closes to a completely different orientation. Its like the drawer does not close to the same position as it did when I aligned front.

What am I doing wrong? The only thing I can come up with is perhaps I install the drawer slide hardware to carcase not wide enough or close enough in relation to drawer width. There is some play in the system left to right that seams to be causing these inconsistant and frustrating results. Lets face it, there are few things more satisfying than perfect inset door or drawer front alignment

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan

[bill mullin]

Just a guess, but maybe your clamps are overpowering the tape and pulling the front out of alignment.
If you have a 23 or 18 gauge pinner, I would tape, then pull the drawer out just enough to get the pinner in, and shoot a couple pins from the back.

[Dan Chouinard]

Clamps overpowering tape is certainly a possibility Bill. However, the alignment left to right has play within the hardware itself. In closed position, if margin is narrow on left, the front can be pushed to the right to correct alignment. This correction is lost when the drawer is opened and shut again with narrow margin to the left reappearing. I must be doing something wrong with the hardware. Blum should not be producing inconsistant results like this.

[Erik Christensen]

I drill the front for the drawer pulls, align the front to the drawer box then put screw(s) in the drawer pull hole(s). I could use double sided tape in addition to the screws but so far have not had a front move on me. I then carefully pull drawer out, clamp and shoot my permanent mounting screws from inside, remove clamps & temporary screw(s) in the pull hole(s), drill drawer box for pull screws using the existing one(s) in the front as a guide - I always (when I remember) use a backer block inside the drawer box to reduce blowout when drilling.

Not to say i have never had a mis-aligned front - but it was always due to a careless initial alignment and not because things moved on me during the mounting process. I have been as careful as I can be in making both casework and drawer box square and dimensionally accurate and so far all my blum undermounts have zero lateral play when mounted.

[Alan Schaffter]

I use a different technique. I used applied fronts also, but give the drawer box a chance to settle, often loading it up with some weight before I attach the fronts. Once I'm sure the box and everything has settled I attach the front this way:

1. On the drill press align and drill the holes in the applied front for the screws that mount the pull(s).
2. Temporarily hold the front against the box while it is installed in the casework. I just hold it in place with my hand, no double stick tape. You can use shims if you need to.
3. Gently mark the hole locations on the drawer box.
4. Put the front aside and drill over-sized holes in the drawer box.
5. Mount the pull and applied front to the box with washer head or truss head screws. You want screws with a large diameter, low profile head. You may need longer screws than those supplied with the pulls. If you mess up and don't have enough adjustment, enlarge the holes in the drawer box. Use a fender washer if the hole is larger than the head of the screw. If you don't want the head of the screw protruding into the drawer box, use a Forstner bit to make a counter bore.
6. Tighten the screws slightly so the applied front can be moved but won't slip by itself.
7. With over-sized holes in the drawer box you can adjust the position of applied front by gently tapping the edges with a mallet.
8. Once I am happy with the position and reveal, I shoot a few brads from the inside to fix the position of the applied front, then I tighten the pull screws. With overlay drawers or if their are no intermediate rails between inset drawers in a stack, I align the entire stack before shooting any brads.

The screws attach the front while the brads keep keep it from moving vertically and horizontally. Using brads allows me to remove and redo if needed, and I think it is neater than adding wood screws. It is hard to make minor adjustments since wood screws often seek the original hole.

Using this technique and drilling holes first, you can wait until the project is complete or cabinets have been installed at the job site before aligning and installing the drawer fronts, and it only takes a few seconds to do final alignment of each drawer.

(Since I received a check from Woodworker's Journal yesterday, this tip should be in their next issue :) )

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/drawer22.jpg

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/drawer31.jpg

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks for the front installment procedures. However, I really think my face frame opening / drawer box sizing math must be screwed-up resulting in inconsistances lateraly What is the proper math to achieve zero lateral play?

[Jamie Buxton]

There is some play in the Blum undermounts. One thing that affects the lateral position is which slide hits its stop first. The springs on the drawers pull the drawer in, and therefore kick the drawer front away from the slide that first hit the stop. Blum has a fix. They offer a locking device specially intended for inset drawers. The part number is 51.1700PV. It does two things. First, it allows you to adjust the front to be exactly in the plane of the casework. Second, it allows you to adjust each slide stop separately, so you can get both slides to hit the stop simultaneously. This means there's less tendency to make that sideways kick.

[glenn bradley]

I think Jamie is on to something. I was wondering if you had confirmed that your carcass is square but unequal stop positions would behave similarly. I have had similar problems; my carcass was square but my drawer wasn't. I ended up with a very slightly (and thin) wedged shim between the slide and the carcass. Once the travel path and stops were consistent, all was well.

P.s. Why is it always the last drawer that gives me trouble?

[John Morrison60]

Could you inadvertantly be pushing on the vertical height adjustment on
the Blum locking device as you install the drawer?

I know I had a real sinking feeling one time when I had a drawer that
looked to be badly misaligned, and I had simply hit the vertical adjuster
on one side causing the out of level condition.

[Brad Tucker]

I've had alignment problems with Blum slides when the drawer is empty vs. full too especially on the shorter slides. It usually happens when the drawer front is heavy like on MDF core veneer. I've played around with some other manufactures and have settled in on the Grass NT slides. They seem to have less play in all directions. I still have a few drawers on ever job that give me fits but less than with the Blum.

[Dan Chouinard]

You da man Jamie!

[Eiji Fuller]

No matter how carefully I install Blum soft close undermount drawer slides something very frustrating often happens.

When fastening inset drawer front, I very carefully shim front until margin is perfect all away around face frame opening then press tight to double-stick carpet tape to hold in position. Then carefully pull drawer out and put two clamps on and install four screws.

Now I take off clamps and close drawer to admire my perfect alignment and the dam thing closes to a completely different orientation. Its like the drawer does not close to the same position as it did when I aligned front.

What am I doing wrong? The only thing I can come up with is perhaps I install the drawer slide hardware to carcase not wide enough or close enough in relation to drawer width. There is some play in the system left to right that seams to be causing these inconsistant and frustrating results. Lets face it, there are few things more satisfying than perfect inset door or drawer front alignment

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan

If the tandems arent installed exactly in plane and exactly the same distance from the front of the cabinet they tend to shift a bit in the very last part of travel. The problem is that the shift isnt consistent every time.
Dont even ask how I know this. hehe good luck
I use a jig for drilling the holes and dont get this problem anymore. Jamie's solution should work though.

[Dan Chouinard]

This forum is so helpful and I appreciate any and all feedback regarding my questions.
I am a very experienced residential interior finish carpenter who occasionally makes cabinets trying to make the transition to a full-time cabinetmaker. Thru my dad I was able to score a brief apprenticship in my hometown three years ago in a cabinetmakers shop. The shop owner is an old timer who has done very well for himself with a large two man shop and customers who are contractors on Marthas Vinyard and Nantucket.
The things I learned there work well for him and his main man. However not all his techniques translate well to the small shop (21' by 27') I use on my parents property. Trying to find my way to the same quality product I was exposed to, with modifications to fit the limitations of my experience and machinery. Its fun as hell, frustrating as heck sometimes, but I just love to be in my Dad's shop trying to figure this stuff out and using some equipment that belonged to his Dad. This also allows generous daily visits with both my parents who are a very robust 86 years of age, still living in the 1740's Colonial that I (and my mother) grew up in, full of rooms that they remodeled themselves (mom loves to boast about her ability to balance sheetrock on her head) and furnished with lots of furniture that my Dad made. Oh, and he makes killer muffins and fruitbread regularly. Cant buy that shit in a store!
But as Eiji pointed out, these inset drawers are finicky little buggers. Using spacer sticks and working my way down from the top, I think that the slider hardware is getting mounted on the same plane. The flaw in my current installation procedure is the setback from the faceframe varies. My thinking was why fuss over the setback. Just set slide on the deep side and use adjustment pads to flush front with faceframe.
WRONG!
Thanks again to all you fine Creekers,
Dan

[Erik Christensen]

you have half my slide mounting trick - start at the top of the case, make 2 height sticks EXACTLY the same length, put some double sided tape on them, stick them to the case and set the bottom of the slide on top. Do that for both slides and you know they are in the same plane and level (assuming the case box is square & level).

the second part is to use a spacer to get the setback not only right - but the same for both slides so you dont get wracking when one slides hits the stop before the other. For frame-less cases I cut a rabbit in some scrap, make the rabbit depth the amount of slide setback and clamp the scrap to the case to install the slide. For faceframe cases rip a strip = setback depth and double tape it to the inside of the frame.

As long as you are careful to make sure the first 2 screws are perfectly centered in the mounting holes you should have no trouble with blum undermount slides.

Another area that I have caused problems for myself when using blum undermounts (the only slide of this type I have experience with) is on drawer box width - the slides are not at all tolerant of out-of -spec drawer box width. With my current skill for precision I have found the best chance of success is to build case first, measure actual opening and finally make drawers with half-blind dovetails - if I cut front/backs to the EXACT length of the finished width and make sure my dovetails are cut so the sides are perfectly flush (i have a Leigh D4R jig so this is easy) - I consistently make drawers within 1/32" of spec on width.

The last dozen of so drawers I have made, assembled & mounted this way have worked perfectly first time - I could just have been lucky as I have a hard time believing I am getting proficient at this :D :D :D

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks Eric. My next setbacks will be precise.
You do use a vix bit for hole centering?

[Karl Brogger]

Double sided tape seems like alot of wasted effort in my opinion.

Open and close the drawer a couple of times, paying attention to where it stops when it closes. Sometimes they kick one way or another, and you need to find the happy medium of where it will be stopping. Chances are you are bumping the drawer around as you are sticking the front on.

I use a couple of shop made shims, depending on how crazy I'm going with margins a couple of finish nails, or even brads work well using the head if I need to cheat a side up. I just put a piece of scrap in the chop box at a real shallow angle and cut them off to make a quick shim.

With the drawer box sitting about the best its going to get, set your drawer front in the opening and shim the bottom up to get an even reveal. If you've got one that looks like it'll be a real pain, raise the adjusters up a bit on the front/back of the drawer so you can really twist it around if neccessary. Then I just nail it in. You need to be careful that you aren't putting any pressure side to side on the drawer box as that'll pretty much hose your alignment. Open an close to double check, then pull it out and screw on the face.

Using the locking device with the adjustable stop is good as well. I actually set the slides a bit deep so they have to be adjusted forward to get them flush.

The Blum undermount slides, (actually all of the Blum hardware), are pretty much useless if you want to be using a 1/16" or less margin. The slides are too sloppy, the hinges don't kick the door into the opening enough to clear the face frame. there's a trade off to everything, I still use the Blum stuff, you just have to learn to work with the little nuiances, instead of them working against you.

[Karl Brogger]

Also, make a jig to drill the first hole for the slides. That way they are consistent. I just use a piece of angle aluminum with countersunk holes in it, place it in the bottom of the drawer opening and use a Vix bit.

All of my drawer openings get a stretcher that is dado'd in across the front and the back of the opening. Being that I set the face frame an 1/8" above the hieght of the stretcher, I just use a spacer to raise the slide in back to the level of the face frame. If the slide is not perfectly perpindicular to the face of the box its no big deal, that's where the adjustments come in handy. If I see something that is wildly off, I will cheat it in whatever direction is neccessary. Its way more effecient to make use of the adjusters, than to spend large amounts of time to get it perfect. Especially sitting in a shop, since everything must be adjusted again once installed.

[Dan Chouinard]

Karl,
Custom made shims are a staple of any finish carpenter. I make a dozen at a time and keep them in my apron. Stock shims just dont cut it.

Double stick tape is just the ticket if you want to put your fronts on without nail holes. Why would you use nails when "everything" needs to be re-adjusted after install???

I shoot for 3/32 margins.

Dan

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like you have your answer, but as far as all this tape, screws and nails, "For what" I ask. Get some blum inset drawer front adjusters, a set of marking templates and the drill bit and have at it. Makes adjusting and READJUSTING drawer fronts in the field a snap. You drill a few holes on the drill press on the backs of the drawer fronts, you shim them in the openings to get the basic reveal, you put the guides with the points in the holes and give them a good BOP with your palm. Voila, its done, you know just where to put the screws. Slightly over sized screw holes in conjunction with these can add even more flexibility. Try them, you may like them better than tape. Many of the cabinets we make at work get finished on site by a sub after install, so the drawer fronts are coming off and going back on at least once, and tape/nails is really out then.

As far as the slides, I use a simple small combination square to keep the set back consistent, which is critical, and we use the clips for inset drawers, which help particularly well for situations where something in the construction is racked. We buy our drawers and I have hung a few that were less than square (though parallel sides), but by carefully packing the the offending opposing corners out with some slim shims I have made them function perfectly. Same for boxes with a little irregularity to them.

[Karl Brogger]

fronts on without nail holes.


Just to be clear, I'm putting the brads through the drawer, not through the face.

[Dan Chouinard]

Those blum adjusters certainly make sense especially in the case of onsite finishing which is how my last kitchen cabinet job was done and the next two will be as well.

Thank you Karl and Peter for your advice.
Dan

[Peter Quinn]

Dan, for small to average sized drawer fronts I find the blum adjusters and the drawer pull or knob screws are sufficient to keep the fronts in place permanently. For some of the larger drawer fronts on pot and pan banks or such I like to get the adjustment with the buttons then reinforce them with a few washer head screws from the back. Things in the 30" plus range get a few extra screws on my watch, whether they need it or not. Oh, and you only get one chance to put the adjusters in the fronts correctly, and they only go one way, so practice on a scrap piece or test piece. DAMHIK

[Dan Chouinard]

Peter,
Tape really works quite well but you loose adjustability.
How many adjusters per front and the cost of each? What kind of investment is there for the marking template and drill bit?
Thanks,
Dan

[Dan Chouinard]

One other thing Peter,
Not that it matters, but did you call me a dam hik?