Starting to wonder about myself?

[harry strasil]

I guess I am a bit Frugal (tight), I use mostly all salvaged material from packing crates and demolition projects by others, I only have so much 1/4 plywood, the old plywood that is a full 1/4" thick, usually 3 plys, I am building drawers for my basement took chest lower section that has casters so it can be rolled around easily.

So I just spliced several pieces of 1/4 salvaged ply scraps using a tongue and groove, more like an old tongue and fork, 1/8" center, 1/16" sides, 1/2 " glue surface each side.

Beats buying a whole sheet of undersize new stuff and my 1/4" scrap ply shorts section now has a bit less volume. :D

[george wilson]

It must be pretty old if it's actually 1/4" !!!!! I never used much plywood. How old is it?

[harry strasil]

From the early to mid 70's. I still have full sheets of 3/4, 1/2, 3/8, and 1/4 that are full thickness from the mid 80's when I bought this old house and did some remodeling before we moved into it.
I did buy some of the new size router bits tho, because you can't get full thickness ply any more. I guess its a matter of greed, 2 x 4's used to be just that, now they are 1.5 x 3.5, but you still pay for full size, now its plywood downsizing, but you still pay for full thickness, or are they now Mutrick Thickness.
.

[Mark Wyatt]

I was making some panels tonight using 1/2" MDO. I specifically bought this MDO at the "high quality" hardwood and plywood store here in Indy, not the big box stores. And I paid a hefty premium for it too because I wanted good quality material. I measured the thickness (undersized of course) and cut matching dados in my rails and stiles. When I went to assemble the panels, I found the thickness of the MDO varied by up to 1/16" over 30" of length!

I'm willing to pay for good quality, true thickness plywood. Apparently, you just can't get it anymore. Unless I can find your shop and steal some in the night. :cool:

It will be interesting to see what that "high quality" store says about it tomorrow.

[Andrew Gibson]

On plywood I just figured that when they started making it in china they made it in metric and that is why it is all weird thicknesses. I never grabbed a ruler to see if it is an even #mm.

I may have found a guy with hardwood lumber for a good price, all his stuff is full thickness and 4/4 should yield a full inch when dressed. lengths are also a good 4" or so over the even foot mark. I forget what he called it when the wood was cut a little long, but he used to own several saw mills up in PA.

[David Weaver]

I guess I am a bit Frugal (tight), I use mostly all salvaged material from packing crates and demolition projects by others, I only have so much 1/4 plywood, the old plywood that is a full 1/4" thick, usually 3 plys, I am building drawers for my basement took chest lower section that has casters so it can be rolled around easily.

So I just spliced several pieces of 1/4 salvaged ply scraps using a tongue and groove, more like an old tongue and fork, 1/8" center, 1/16" sides, 1/2 " glue surface each side.

Beats buying a whole sheet of undersize new stuff and my 1/4" scrap ply shorts section now has a bit less volume. :D

It sounds like you had a good time doing it. Can't really ask for much else.

Why be less cheap if that means less fun to you?

[Tom Winship]

Seems like when I was a kid, 2 x 4's changed to 1 3/4 x 3 3/4, before the current 1 1/2 x 3 1/2. Is this correct? I have an old shop table I build when I was a kid, will go measure the legs.

[george wilson]

I was helping to build houses in 1952 as a kid. I don't recall 2X4's being really 2x4 ever. My 1949 house has somewhat larger 2x4's than current ones. When you see an 18th.C. building framed with REAL 2x4's,they look huge. I don't know if they can make them much smaller now,because plastic pipe fittings like used for washing machine drains wouldn't fit inside the walls.

When I designed the breakfast nook addition in this house,I specified a 6" thick wall where the washing machine pipes were to fit in the laundry room next to it. The plumber was delighted to have room to work.

[Roy Lindberry]

I was helping to build houses in 1952 as a kid. I don't recall 2X4's being really 2x4 ever. My 1949 house has somewhat larger 2x4's than current ones. When you see an 18th.C. building framed with REAL 2x4's,they look huge. I don't know if they can make them much smaller now,because plastic pipe fittings like used for washing machine drains wouldn't fit inside the walls.

When I designed the breakfast nook addition in this house,I specified a 6" thick wall where the washing machine pipes were to fit in the laundry room next to it. The plumber was delighted to have room to work.

Having framed houses here in western Washington for a number of years, I will note that nearly every house I've built has been designed with 2x6 walls where any waste lines will be run. I'm not sure if it is code, but it is very common up here.

[David Keller NC]

On plywood I just figured that when they started making it in china they made it in metric and that is why it is all weird thicknesses. I never grabbed a ruler to see if it is an even #mm.


The reason plywood's under the nominally quoted thickness is a bit more complicated. When plywood is made, the plys & glue are sent through a heat press. The heat and pressure squashes the wood to some extent, and cures the glue. So - there's a bit of unpredictability for the manufacturer as to what the final thickness will be.

Early on, manufacturing standards were applied to engineered products like plywood to ensure that everyone was selling the same thing. These standards were expressed as a tolerance on the nominal size - 1/4" +/- 1/16" for example (I don't know what the exact standards say, that's just an example).

Better applications of math, science and engineering took a good deal of the uncertainty out of the final thickness based on the pre-heat press thickness, and manufacturers figured out that they could put less material in the stack and still reliably produce sheet thicknesses that were above the lower limit of the standards. Presto - consistently undersized plywood.

[harry strasil]

The second house I rented had a garage framed up with full 2 by 4 black walnut. LOL

I still have some barn boards, that I got from the lumberyard across the street from my blacksmith shop when I was a just married kid, I got to pick thru the new loads of barn boards when they came in, most are clear pine and from 7/8 to 13/16 thick depending on what year I obtained them.

One of my old tools is a floor board cramp with a hand lever, that you dropped the end down over a joist and used hand leverage to bring sprung boards together with. A friend wanted to borrow it, but it was made to use on full 2 inch joists and I didn't want to alter it, besides its cast iron, so I made a temp adapter for use with it. Oh yeah, its grooved so it can be used with tongue and groove or shiplap material.

As my old Mentor and several older Gentlemen that took me under their wing so to speak, informed me that when lumber yards used to get a stack of 2 by stuff in, in the old days it was random widths and lengths and they usually ripped a lot of it down to what they needed. One old Gentleman who lived just across the border in Kansas was an employee of one of the lumber yards their had a small garage full of 16 inch wide and up boards of random lengths that the yard owner told him to take home as it wasn't economical to rip them up into widths needed.

One old friend who owned a scrap yard in a small town close by has a Pine counter from one of the old business's in that small town. The top is 30 + inches wide, and each shelf under it are at least 24 inches wide, and the whole thing is 16 feet or more long and the top, front and each shelf are ONE board wide. I don't recall if I measured the thickness of the boards.

[harry strasil]

If I can remember, I will take my camera and try and get some pictures of it. I am not sure as of this posting if the old gentleman is still alive, I haven't seen him for a couple of years, he was a frequent customer in my blacksmith shop as his retirement hobby was restoring old Johnny Pop John Deere Tractors and I could repair cast iron and other things to the standards of the Antiquer.

[george wilson]

I can't recall if I was advised by a contractor friend to make the wall 6" thick,or if I just got lucky. Apparently the plumber was used to dealing in 4" thick walls.

My house improvements and 2 story 30' x 40' shop building are the only actual buildings I ever designed. I taught drafting at one time,as a class a few years,and as an adjunct to wood shop others. I also worked for an architect for a time after hours to bone up on my skills. All he EVER did was trace old drawing elements,which he had a big supply of. This was in 1965,before everything was drawn on computers.

[Bill Houghton]

All he EVER did was trace old drawing elements,which he had a big supply of. This was in 1965,before everything was drawn on computers.

My son has made his living since he was in high school doing computer architectural drafting. At the age of 17, he taught the engineers at his first job in this field how to use the computer for drafting - they were still drawing by hand in 1989, and found these newfangled boxes kind of intimidating.

He long ago developed a library of standard architectural elements - a little simpler because the architect for whom he mainly works specializes in hospital and other medical center work. Strangely, not every draftsperson does this. Whenever the projects get big and other folks are brought on, many of them develop the details anew each time or fail to use his (I'm sure well-marked) library of elements, something he finds puzzling beyond understanding - that IS the point of computers, after all, that you can reproduce a particular sequence (words, drawings, whatever) endlessly with great efficiency.

[harry strasil]

I still have my lil drafting table made from the top of an old discount store puter desk no one wanted, and my drafting tools and overlays. I am not very puter literate and someday I may be able to make sketchup do what I want it to. Mostly if just frustrates me quickly, altho they say its so simple. I guess its the old dog, new tricks syndrome. LOL Maybe my internal hard drive (brain) is too full of other info from the years.

[Tony Shea]

Over here in Maine I have been on a huge job in Somesville. The main building that actually overhangs the ocean 40' or so and is just an imaculate engineering feet and an incredible veiw that you just can't get with new construction these days due to codes. I've been doing the wiring in kitchen remodel and have spent much time in the attic and all walls are now exposed. The entire house (which is huge) is completely framed up with full width Doug Fir 2x stock. There isn't a 1 1/2" stud or rafter in the whole building and the every bit of it is old growth Doug Fir that is just beautiful stuff. There are very few knots of any kind and the growth rings are extremely tight and lots of them. Not sure when the intial construction actually took place but believe it to be in the 50's, if not earlier. The carpenters have special ordered full size Doug Fir 2 by stock in order to keep with originality of the building in the remolding process. It's been an interesting job to say the least, one that I'm happy to have been a part of. Lunch breaks there are mind boggling as far as what we have for a veiw every day. It's amazing what being a Billionaire will get you in these parts.

[David Cefai]

Andrew Gibson wrote:


On plywood I just figured that when they started making it in china they made it in metric and that is why it is all weird thicknesses

Not so, I'm afraid. I am fully metric except for some neander stuff and the plywood I can get is undersized and of variable thiskness. I recently had a sheet which was 5.6mm thick but a part of it hit 6mm.

[Dave Matson]

Sometimes undersizing can be handy. A 15/32 labeled sheet will fit cleanly into a 1/2 in dado. The fit may not be very snug but it nice not having to wail on it with a mallet.

Perhaps this touted as benefit for kitchen cabinet builders. Funny thing is now one can by 15/32 router bits to get a tighter fit. Lets hope this doesn't perpetuate.

[Tom Vanzant]

Harry,
I inherited a pie safe (circa 1900) from my grandmother. It has four doors, M&T, with two punched tin panels each. There are two drawers with threaded wooden knobs. All the carcass wood is 14" wide 1" pine w/o a single knot. All face wood... doors, drawer fronts, edges of the sides and top... are black walnut. Construction uses face and sliding dovetails throughout. All fasteners are square nails of various sizes to suit, including tiny ones in the half-round covering the cracks between the doors.
It is currently at my daughter's house, lovingly cared for as the heirloom that it is.

[Rob Young]

I still have my lil drafting table made from the top of an old discount store puter desk no one wanted, and my drafting tools and overlays. I am not very puter literate and someday I may be able to make sketchup do what I want it to. Mostly if just frustrates me quickly, altho they say its so simple. I guess its the old dog, new tricks syndrome. LOL Maybe my internal hard drive (brain) is too full of other info from the years.

Harry, it's not you, it's SketchUp. :)

Thinking in T-squares and triangles just doesn't work well in SketchUp-land. Their hippy-dippy user interface can't deal with it.

I have the same problem. It takes me a while to stop thinking about how I do things in other CAD programs or by hand to get into the swing of using SketchUp. Then I finish what I'm doing and 3 months later when I want to try something again I've forgotten the "tricks"!

I'll probably break down and buy Bob Lang's new book soon just to see if it can help. I've got one other SketchUp book but it has so little rigor and wanders all over the place I've never gotten much use from it. SketchUp for Dummies indeed! :cool:

[Rob Young]

Harry, you don't have to wonder about yourself. We all will do that for you... :eek::D

Neat trick on recycling the plywood.