Bowl Gouge sizes?

[Joe Shinall]

I see there are different bowl gouges and I am doing a small bowl and not getting the cut I would really like while hollowing out the inside. Are the different size bowl gouges for different size bowls?

This bowl is about 3.5 inches in diameter and about 3 inches tall. I am using a half inch bowl gouge because that is all I have but it's really hard to get that angle with this gouge.

[Jamie Straw]

Joe, the experts here will give you the full scoop, but I have to share an experience related to this topic: On Wednesday, I got to spend some time at a well-known turner's shop, who also happens to make tools. He spent a little time at the lathe with me, showing me how to use a couple of tools. The real eye-opener was a snubby, traditional bowl gouge -- nearly straight across the nose, and a very short bevel. It was fabulous for going down into the bottom of the bowl, and that transition area between the wall and the bottom.

I had been using a scraper to do this part of a deep-ish bowl, out of frustration with the gouge choices I had. Perhaps someone else here can give you a better description of what I'm describing.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I use a 3/8" P & N gouge with a conventional grind on it to do that small of a bowl. Mike Mahoney uses a conventional gouge and it works slick. It does not have the Irish or Ellsworth grind on it.

[Thom Sturgill]

WARNING Long answer -

The 'Irish' grind is great for the outside, for removal of large amounts of material from the inside and cleaning the vertical portions of the inside wall. It does not work well in the transition area unless the 'heel' is ground away to prevent it from riding on the wood and creating pressure ridges. Check out Mike Mahoney's site (http://www.bowlmakerinc.com/) (or youtube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8-8MNhpvY) for information on his grinds. Many of us use some varient of his grind.

The conventional grind works better on the bottom as the tool can be nearly parallel to the ways and still be riding the bevel on the wood.

From what I've seen, size relates more to tool rest overhang. A larger diameter tool can hang further off the tool rest without vibration and chatter than a smaller tool can. and thus to an extent does relate to the size of a bowl. BTW, they also say handle length should relate to tool overhang (5:1) which is why larger diameter tools tend to have longer handles too.

Also when one says they have a 1/2" gouge, an American manufacturer ( and most distributers ) refer to the diameter of the shaft while an English manufacturer refers to the width of the flute. Thus Jimmy Clewes talks about his 'quarter gouge' and picks up what we would generally call a 3/8" gouge.

Then there is one more factor - the shape of the flute itself. Go to Doug Thompson's site (http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/) - he makes some of the best tools and discusses flute shape as he makes three different flutes for bowl gouges - A deep 'V' for Jimmy's signature gouges, a 'standard' V and a U shape. This has more to do with chip clearance, but I bought a U grind gouge which is currently sharpened in a conventional grind to use for bottom cleaning. The jury is still out on whether this works better.

[Tim Rinehart]

Thom is right on with his explanation and good references. I'll add a few comments ...

The grinding off of the heel of your bowl gouge will prevent (minimize perhaps) the crushing of wood fibers that tends to leave concentric rings as you push down thru that transition area. Adding that extra relief grind on the heel (Jimmy Clewes calls it a microbevel I think I recall) provides more clearance to allow the cutting edge bevel to stay in tact while not allowing the heel to grind in or force you to go steeper than you want.
Look at the different compound grinds on Mahoney's profiles, and if you think about it, the different overall angles of the cut relate to the radius and approach he is trying to cut.

It takes a couple tools ground differently to really do justice to bowl turning and being able to make clean cuts without resorting to scraping in the hard to turn transition areas, but the results are usually worth the effort, and you'll spend less time sanding, and likely improve ability to keep a smooth contour in the sides to bottom of your bowl.

And don't forget to have freshly sharpened tools for those last cuts.

[Al Wasser]

Part of the problem you are facing is the size of the bowl - no, not that it is little. The problem is that you bowl is deep relative to its diameter. Anytime that a bowl is deeper that about 1/2 the diameter removing the inside gets harder (at least for me and I suppose I've turned over 300 bowls). The depth gives you less room to work and your gouge almost becomes a scraper. You can do what you want but realize part of the probelm is not you or your gouge. Next time try a shallower bowl and see if you get better results

[Wally Dickerman]

Ask a dozen experienced bowl turners what gouge they use and what grind they use and you'll get nearly a dozen answers. There is no "correct" grind. Size is also a matter of what the turner is used to. Most pros use a 1/2 in. (5/8 in. actuall size). Hogs off more wood and faster than a 3/8 in.

The angle of nose grind is one of the big differences in how a gouge is used. The extremes are from 40 degrees to 65 degrees or more. Obviously, the 60 or 65 degree nose works much better across the bottom of the inside of a bowl. If you will do a lot of deep bowls its a good idea to grind a second bevel on the nose to avoid compressing the wood.

I don't think that it makes any difference whether or not the gouge is side ground or is the fingernail grind. It's a matter of what you get used to. The side grind has one advantage in that it's much better for shear scraping.

There is a little known method that I often use inside a deep bowl that solves some of the problems that you're experienceing. It's a little hard to describe, but I'll try. In the deep part of the inside, when cutting down the side, at the point of transition, instead of continuing to swing the handle toward you to cut across the bottom, drop the handle a bit and push the gouge away from you, with the handle pointing away from you. The nose of the gouge should end up in the center of bowl. Make sure the the nose bevel is rubbing all the way. Works like a charm.....I've done this cut in demos and a number of experienced turners have told me that they adopted the method after seeing it done.

Wally

[Joe Shinall]

Thanks guys, you really opened my eyes up to the angle of the nose. I did notice when I watched Bill Grumbines bowl video that he had a very long angle compared to mine and I can see how that could really be good. Now I just need to figure out how to get mine to that angle. Can you buy one already like that? I'm not a pro at sharpening or grinding yet.

[Reed Gray]

The inside of the bowl is more difficult to turn than the outside. Visibility is part of it. The other part is getting through the transition from the side of the bowl to the bottom. An open flatter bowl is fairly easy as there is little transition. A deeper bowl like yours is harder to work the tool through that area. A steeper nose angle helps. The 45 degree bevel is a standard angle that does a lot of things well, but having a gouge with a 60 to 70 degree angle will help get through that area better. Rounding off the heel of your gouge helps on the inside of the bowl, on the walls and for getting through the transition and across the bottom. You can use a scraper, flat on your tool rest for going across the bottom. You have to be careful in the transition area as you go from the bottom to the side walls, you can get way too much wood on the scraper at once (both bottom and side of the bowl) and it can act like a catch. A smaller radius helps, and I will do finish cuts with the scraper at a 45 degree angle (up on its side) which also makes it easier to get through the transition area. Slide the scraper through the area with the lathe off before you try it with the lathe on.

robo hippy

[John Keeton]

Slide the scraper through the area with the lathe off before you try it with the lathe on.

robo hippyReed, I do this often with all of my tools - gouges, detail gouges, etc. Nothing like getting half way through a cut and realizing "it ain't gonna work!!"

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks guys, you really opened my eyes up to the angle of the nose. I did notice when I watched Bill Grumbines bowl video that he had a very long angle compared to mine and I can see how that could really be good. Now I just need to figure out how to get mine to that angle. Can you buy one already like that? I'm not a pro at sharpening or grinding yet.

I may be all wet here (please holler if I am), but what I'm hearing is that you don't want a long angle when you're doing the transitional and bottom areas of a bowl this deep. It's nigh unto impossible to keep the bevel on the wood with a long bevel when you're way inside that bowl profile. I have Grumbine's video, I'll have to re-watch it. I don't remember the different gouges he uses.

Below is a picture of a grind similar to the new one I "learned" Wednesday, and felt very safe using. Left a lovely surface. The image is part of a page at Peter Child's website (UK), that shows several grinds: http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm

153045

[Joe Shinall]

I've watched it 4 times in 2 days. He uses his bowl gouge with the long bevel for everything. Uses the scraper and parting tool once or twice for small stuff, but it's all the same gouge throughout.

[Jamie Straw]

I've watched it 4 times in 2 days. He uses his bowl gouge with the long bevel for everything. Uses the scraper and parting tool once or twice for small stuff, but it's all the same gouge throughout.

If it's the Turned Bowls Made Easy, yep he uses one gouge. But the bowl is a pretty shallow form, yes? Nice short nose on that gouge, I need to get closer to that shape m'self.

[Thom Sturgill]

Thanks guys, you really opened my eyes up to the angle of the nose. I did notice when I watched Bill Grumbines bowl video that he had a very long angle compared to mine and I can see how that could really be good. Now I just need to figure out how to get mine to that angle. Can you buy one already like that? I'm not a pro at sharpening or grinding yet.

Doug Thompson lists a Bill Grumbine special. Its a 5/8" dia V-groove gouge that is 16" long - Doug's regular 5/8" gouge is 12" long. It lists for $105. (No relation to Doug other than as a satisfied customer.)

Joe, I really want to make a few suggestions. Get *at least* one more gouge. You don't have to start with super expensive gouges, but it your current gouge is not an expensive one then do go ahead and invest in a better gouge. Grind them with different grinds and experiment with how they cut and where they work best. Use your 'cheapest' gouge for experimentation, so you do not feel too bad about grinding off metal. If you do not already have a wolverine jig, get one. Craft Supply sells a set of sample grinds - soft steel ground in different styles on each end. I believe there are three in the set. They give you a 'standard' to aim for while experimenting, and let you figure out how to set up the jig to duplicate the grind. Until you get experienced, you tend to find that your grinds 'drift' or change incrementally over time. Having a reference standard helps correct for that.

And finally, if you are not a member of one already, find a club. You will find club members willing to show you everything they can and normally willing to allow you to turn on their machine with their tools to get a feel for how a tool works before you spend money buying. The forum is great, but nothing beats hands on with a guru.

[Wally Dickerman]

I may be all wet here (please holler if I am), but what I'm hearing is that you don't want a long angle when you're doing the transitional and bottom areas of a bowl this deep. It's nigh unto impossible to keep the bevel on the wood with a long bevel when you're way inside that bowl profile. I have Grumbine's video, I'll have to re-watch it. I don't remember the different gouges he uses.

Below is a picture of a grind similar to the new one I "learned" Wednesday, and felt very safe using. Left a lovely surface. The image is part of a page at Peter Child's website (UK), that shows several grinds: http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm

153045

Jamie, it's not impossible to rub the bevel in a deep bowl with most any nose angle. If you'll refer to my reply in this thread there's different kind of cut that works very well. Most of my gouges are ground with a 60 deg. nose but I've done this cut with a gouge with a 45 deg. nose just as well.

With a little practice you will find that this cut is a good one to have in your arsenal. Actually Bill G. has said that he uses it too.

Wally

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks, Wally, for the explanation. I think I missed your post earlier -- have been trying to squeeze the forum inbetween other demands, not very effective.:o:o

[Steve Schlumpf]

Joe - my go-to gouge is 5/8" and I use it for everything. It does have swept back wings but I believe the key is having the nose bevel of the tool fairly small. Mine is usually right around 1/8" to 3/16" wide and I also have a second and even a third bevel to remove excess metal on the heel to allow clearance without rubbing.

Also, like Wally mentioned, I use more of an arc when cutting through the transition area of a bowl. I slightly open the tool up while in the corner and then close it back down as I drop down to the center - meaning pointing it more towards the center.

Like anything in turning - it comes with practice. If you can, take some lessons from someone like Wally and save yourself a lot of time trying to figure things out.

[Hilel Salomon]

The only addenda I would make is that if the gouge is made in the US or Canada, 1/2" is really 1/2". If, on the other hand, the tool comes from England or-but I'm really not sure about this last one-Australia, 1/2" is really 5/8". In addition to the grind and its angle, there are differences in the shape of the groove. Doug Thompson makes "v" and "u" grooves, and Hamlet, for example also has relatively shallow and relatively deep grooves in its offerings.

Hilel.

[Joe Shinall]

Doug Thompson lists a Bill Grumbine special. Its a 5/8" dia V-groove gouge that is 16" long - Doug's regular 5/8" gouge is 12" long. It lists for $105. (No relation to Doug other than as a satisfied customer.)

Joe, I really want to make a few suggestions. Get *at least* one more gouge. You don't have to start with super expensive gouges, but it your current gouge is not an expensive one then do go ahead and invest in a better gouge. Grind them with different grinds and experiment with how they cut and where they work best. Use your 'cheapest' gouge for experimentation, so you do not feel too bad about grinding off metal. If you do not already have a wolverine jig, get one. Craft Supply sells a set of sample grinds - soft steel ground in different styles on each end. I believe there are three in the set. They give you a 'standard' to aim for while experimenting, and let you figure out how to set up the jig to duplicate the grind. Until you get experienced, you tend to find that your grinds 'drift' or change incrementally over time. Having a reference standard helps correct for that.

And finally, if you are not a member of one already, find a club. You will find club members willing to show you everything they can and normally willing to allow you to turn on their machine with their tools to get a feel for how a tool works before you spend money buying. The forum is great, but nothing beats hands on with a guru.

Thank you Thom. That was all really great info. I just ordered a Wolverine jig and I am going to Atlanta in a few weeks and will swing by Highland and look at a nice bowl gouge. And I will experiment with some angles on the cheaper one.

[Neil Strong]

......but I'm really not sure about this last one-Australia, 1/2" is really 5/8".

Australia has followed the the UK convention up until now. I guess we thought that Sheffield might have the conventions sorted out by the time we got into the game.

When we first started importing US/Canadian gouges we thought that they had shrunk in transit.....:rolleyes: