Buck Bros Chisels at CS

[Jon Agnew]

Have any of you had the chance to try out the Buck Bros Chisels offered at Craftsman Studio? I've read some horrible reviews of modern Buck Bros, but these are a little different. If anyone has put these through their paces and formulated an opinion, I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

[David Weaver]

I had them. I ended up selling them on ebay.

They are actually pretty good, but they are not a substitute for stanley 750s (or LN equivalents) or Ashley iles type of chisels.

The steel is similar in size to hardware store chisels or short firmers, the bevels are somewhere between good bevel-edge chisels and beveled firmers, but they vary a little vs. each other (in the same set) - some are more delicate than others and have less tall sides / more delicate bevels.

The handles are very long, though, not heavy, but long. I think where as we as a group on this forum generally grip chisels near the cutting edge and tap them with a mallet , these chisels are probably intended to be held by the handle and struck more coarsely. Otherwise, I can't see why the handle would be so outsized.

Really, the only reason I sold them is because I have way too many sets of chisels, and I couldn't see where they outdid any other chisels I have - I was just curious given that they were american made and I really like the old buck bros chisels (and knowing when I was ordering that these would not be cast steel like the old ones - curious to see what they came up with).

Hardness wise, they are similar to vintage chisels - they are not soft with a rubbery chrome vanadium feel on the stones like hardware store chisels - and not bullet hard like LNs or japanese chisels. They are pleasant to sharpen and reasonably flat - it took less than 10 minutes to prepare each to a full back polish and a honed edge.

[george wilson]

But David,bullets are made of lead!:)

[David Weaver]

Hard like armor piercing bullets!

(but those probably aren't hardened, either).

I'd use a saying that my farmer grandfather used to say (involves part of the word "bullets"), but I'm pretty sure it would get erased.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Had a whole big reply for this but it disappeared on me.

I concur with David's opinion about the Craftsman Studio Buck Brothers chisels. Their copy describes them as New Old Stock from days of yore, but the CV metal is a dead ringer, right down to how they're milled, as the ones in my local Home Depot (these latter have plastic handles, not wood). That said, the steel is good. I think Chrome Vanadium gets a bum rap as being "soft" but in my experience anyone can make a bad chisel from any material, and I have a CV plane blade in an old Sargent #6 plane blade that could chew through twenty board feet of hard maple, lick its chops, and go through twenty more.

The wooden handle on the new Bucks is pretty long, which lends itself to paring, but the chisel steel itself is not long and thin like a paring chisel, so go figure. The leather button seems okay, but I haven't had the occasion to really wail on them relentlessly with a mallet. For heavy work it may benefit from a ring on the end.

Since I've been on a chisel quest lately, looking for the best dovetail chisels around, if you're looking for a good set I can recommend the recently arrived Ashley Iles butt chisels available at The Best Things. They're made of really nice O-1 Sheffield Steel, beveled to 23 degrees, and the backs flattened quickly. The steel is something else--hard to describe but it sharpens very well. The Ashley Iles round-back dovetail chisels (from Tools for Working Wood) are really nice too, but longer and a bit more delicate. More for paring, and the 1/4 inch one I'd definitely not use with a mallet because it's too thin, IMHO. All the butt chisels are suitable for use with a mallet though.

I've heard that the Blue Spruce and the Lie Nielsens are highly regarded. Although pricey, you could most likely resell them at near-face value if you wanted to or needed to. Wilbur Pan recommends the Imai Japanese chisels on his very informative website, Giant Cypress. I haven't experience with the LN, BS, or Imai chisels though, so I can't say boo about them.

AI butt chisels on left. Craftsman Studio Buck Bros chisel on right. AI dovetail chisels second and third from right:
http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/Jonathryn/DSC02533.jpg

AI butt chisels: Perfect for dovetailing. The sides are ground very thin and will go right into the corner of a dovetail:
http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/Jonathryn/DSC02532.jpg

[george wilson]

Chrome vanadium gets a bum rap??? I never heard that one before.

There is nothing at all wrong with chrome vanadium. It depends upon HOW MUCH was used in the steel,what other alloys(like carbon),and how much was(were) used,and how the tool was tempered.

I don't know the differences,but,for example,Chinese high speed steel isn't the same as American made high speed steel. The Chinese is more brittle,and it seems to me a little harder than USA HSS. They must be making it somewhere within the required parameters(if you can trust Chinese alloys to be honest) of HSS,but I use metal cutting bits all the time,and it is definitely different. This is also well known by other machinists.

So,no telling what the chemistry,or hardening of those Buck chisels is. Depends upon where they are made. If they are English made,I have little faith in them these days.Sorbys have always been way too soft.At least the lathe tools. Are you guys aware that some time ago there was a move on the part of chisel makers to make them SOFTER to avoid liability if someone got a metal chip in their eye from them breaking? I wouldn't want any recent ones. Maybe a small,specialized co. like Ashley Iles would be ok.

[David Weaver]

They are, by descrition, made in the US of old-stock buck brothers material.

I found the stock in them to be fine and take a very keen edge. It was the geometry that I had issue with. the steel itself, no issue.

German (2 c and hirsch) chrome vanadium steel is stuff I have found to be excellent, and very hard. When I had hirsch chisels, I thought their durability was similar to the LNs I had. Their geometry wasn't nearly as good for cabinet work, but the steel was just fine.

I think there's a very good reason the hardware store chisels are soft, and it isn't a mistake. They may not be consistent, but that doesn't matter too much for how they get used.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Chrome vanadium gets a bum rap??? I never heard that one before.

Yeah, I've been doing a lot of research on whose chisels are the best. Like most things, there are a lot of opinions, and one I keep coming across is that CV chisels are junk, because CV is supposedly junk. I'm not disagreeing with you--in my experience it can be a good steel. But the comments I run across is that it's too soft or that the edge rolls over. It may be one of those generalizations that die hard because too many people read the same thing and too few people care to pay their own money to disprove something they "read on the internet."

I do like the O-1 steel in the Ashley Iles chisels though, and prefer it to the Buck Bros. I could shake one loose if you're curious George. Maybe you could test it and send it back with one you think is better.

[Dave Matson]

There was a cool episode of "how it's made" on the TV the other day concerning buck brother's chisels. It was from several years ago so they may have shut down the production line since. You can see it on youtube here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGfVXzzYLFs

fast forward to about 1:50.

[george wilson]

I used to make a lot of tools with 01 back in the 70's,because I had simpler means to work with,and could harden and temper it o.k.. If it's anything serious,like a set of punches and dies,I usually use A2 now,sometimes D2. In our home jewelry business,I make all the tooling,and those punches and dies see tens of thousands of cycles before I grind them. They are a lot of trouble to make,and I need them to last as long as possible. Especially as My wife is much younger,and I don't know where she could get these oddball toolings if I am not able to carry on at some point.

As for chrome vanadium,it is not the alloy. It is how it is proportioned,hardened and tempered.

[Mark Wyatt]

I used to make a lot of tools with 01 back in the 70's,because I had simpler means to work with,and could harden and temper it o.k.. If it's anything serious,like a set of punches and dies,I usually use A2 now,sometimes D2. In our home jewelry business,I make all the tooling,and those punches and dies see tens of thousands of cycles before I grind them. They are a lot of trouble to make,and I need them to last as long as possible. Especially as My wife is much younger,and I don't know where she could get these oddball toolings if I am not able to carry on at some point.

As for chrome vanadium,it is not the alloy. It is how it is proportioned,hardened and tempered.


I watched a 2008 episode of The Woodwright Shop earlier this week and Roy had some folks sawing veneer. Roy asked about the saw the fella was using and he says "this was made by toolmaker George Wilson." I believe Roy said something like "holy moley!"

Then, I watched a second episode and this other fella was using some fancy brass and rosewood oval drawing device for making inlay. And Roy asked him, "where did you get that?" The guy says, "George Wilson, toolmaker at Colonial Williamsburg."

You sponsoring the show or something? :p

[Bob Strawn]

Yeah, I've been doing a lot of research on whose chisels are the best. Like most things, there are a lot of opinions, and one I keep coming across is that CV chisels are junk, because CV is supposedly junk. I'm not disagreeing with you--in my experience it can be a good steel. But the comments I run across is that it's too soft or that the edge rolls over. It may be one of those generalizations that die hard because too many people read the same thing and too few people care to pay their own money to disprove something they "read on the internet."

I do like the O-1 steel in the Ashley Iles chisels though, and prefer it to the Buck Bros. I could shake one loose if you're curious George. Maybe you could test it and send it back with one you think is better.

I have some CV chisels that I got from Harbor Freight ages ago. They were the top end for HF, but they were total junk you know. Pain to sharpen, worthless edge. I needed an odd chisel profile, so I reshaped it quite a bit while keeping it cool. Amazing chisel, really holds an edge. This threw me. Slowly though, it dawned on me what was really up. The outer steel was soft. The inner core was good stuff. So after flattening the backs of them until they started to resist metal removal, I found that they made good chisels.

As long as the edge of the chisel was formed of the soft metal on the surface of the chisel back, these chisels were going to be worthless. Once the bad steel was removed from the backs, the edge was now formed from good steel. Now I wish I had bought more of these chisels, sadly the set has not been available for several years now.

Bob

[george wilson]

If certain steels are not protected from air while being hardened,they will get a soft skin on their surfaces where the carbon burned out. This applies to A2,D2,HSS,and any of the steels where higher hardening temperatures are required. W1 and O1 are hardened at lower temperatures than the more exotic steels,and you don't need to protect them from the air.

It could also be that the chrome vanadium chisels you mention were gotten TOO hot in the hardening process,and suffered from surface decarburization.

When hardening higher temp. steels,I have to use a stainless steel foil wrap into which I put the tool,and a little piece of brown paper which burns out the oxygen before the steel gets hot enough to decarb on the surface. A better way is to have an inert gas furnace to force out any air.

[george wilson]

I've lost my picture of the oval drawing device,or I'd post it. Must get another made up.

[Jonathan McCullough]

If certain steels are not protected from air while being hardened,they will get a soft skin on their surfaces where the carbon burned out. This applies to A2,D2,HSS,and any of the steels where higher hardening temperatures are required. W1 and O1 are hardened at lower temperatures than the more exotic steels,and you don't need to protect them from the air.

It could also be that the chrome vanadium chisels you mention were gotten TOO hot in the hardening process,and suffered from surface decarburization.

When hardening higher temp. steels,I have to use a stainless steel foil wrap into which I put the tool,and a little piece of brown paper which burns out the oxygen before the steel gets hot enough to decarb on the surface. A better way is to have an inert gas furnace to force out any air.

On his website, Bob Strawn describes a slurry made from iron oxide powder and Borax. He coated some tools before heat treating and it appears to have protected the metal from surface decarburization. I don't recall him mentioning the base metal for the tools though. Might be an interesting and less expensive alternative to stainless silver foil.

[george wilson]

Some knife makers use high temp. auto engine paint,but then you have to get it off.

[Jim R Edwards]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread but I have several Record planes and the blades say tungsten steel. I have to say that I am able to get them very sharp and have been very happy with them. Is there anything special about tungsten steel or am I just lucky on getting them sharp!

[Bill Houghton]

I concur with David's opinion about the Craftsman Studio Buck Brothers chisels. Their copy describes them as New Old Stock from days of yore...


If you read the copy really carefully, the New Old Stock reference is to some gouges that they apparently no longer stock, perhaps having sold them all off.